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Old 02-04-2016, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is a claim by Woodrow LI which I find very odd and need to be discussed.


Woodrow LI: "you can not learn about Islam from the Qur'an"
http://www.city-data.com/forum/42891205-post37.html


Really??




The Submitters and the Quranists believe one can be a good Muslim with reference to the Quran ONLY and without any reference to the Ahadiths or Sira.


Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)


Who are Submitters and what is Submission?


I agree with the views of the Submitters that one can be a Muslims with reference to only the Quran.


However I do not agree Muslims who have preference for the Ahadith [or any Muslims] should ignore or abandon the Ahadith.
The Ahadith can be used as a guide for Muslims but one has to bear in mind the Ahadith do not carry any divine authority at all and many Hadiths do not comply with the words of Allah as in the Quran.


"Muslims can not learn about Islam from the Qur'an"
Any one agree or disagree with the above?
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Old 02-06-2016, 12:23 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is the view from Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)
in [] = mine.
Submission or Islam in the Arabic language is a meaning or a description rather than a name or a title. It describes the state of mind of anyone who recognizes Godís absolute authority, and reaches a conviction that God alone possesses all power; no other entity possesses any power or control independent of Him. The logical consequence of such a realization is to devote oneís life and oneís worship absolutely to God alone.


So, Submission (or Islam in Arabic language) is a spiritual state of mind and not a title of a religion that belongs to a specific group of people [e.g. Sunni, Shia].
ANYONE who submits and worships one God without idolizing other entities is a Submitter by definition (Muslim in Arabic language).


This state of mind basically conforms with Godís one and only message [the Quran] He delivered to man-kind through all of His messengers since Noah; worship God alone and avoid idolatry.


I would add that this state of submission within the mind is consummated by an explicit or implicit entering into a covenant with Allah in accordance to the terms and conditions as stipulated in the Quran and no where else.
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Old 02-06-2016, 08:13 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,375,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is the view from Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)
in [] = mine.
Submission or Islam in the Arabic language is a meaning or a description rather than a name or a title. It describes the state of mind of anyone who recognizes Godís absolute authority, and reaches a conviction that God alone possesses all power; no other entity possesses any power or control independent of Him. The logical consequence of such a realization is to devote oneís life and oneís worship absolutely to God alone.


So, Submission (or Islam in Arabic language) is a spiritual state of mind and not a title of a religion that belongs to a specific group of people [e.g. Sunni, Shia].
ANYONE who submits and worships one God without idolizing other entities is a Submitter by definition (Muslim in Arabic language).


This state of mind basically conforms with Godís one and only message [the Quran] He delivered to man-kind through all of His messengers since Noah; worship God alone and avoid idolatry.


I would add that this state of submission within the mind is consummated by an explicit or implicit entering into a covenant with Allah in accordance to the terms and conditions as stipulated in the Quran and no where else.
Not the site explains what Submission is, but does not explain how to perform it.

One will never learn how to submit by the Qur'an alone.
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Old 02-06-2016, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Note the site explains what Submission is, but does not explain how to perform it.
One will never learn how to submit by the Qur'an alone.
I don't think you survey the site.
Note this;
Religious Duties | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)


The meaning of 'submit' in this context is;
submit = to give over or yield to the power or authority of another.
Submit | Define Submit at Dictionary.com


The Quran mentioned the term 'submit' in the following sense;


57:16 Is not the time ripe for the hearts of those who believe to submit to Allah's reminder and to the truth which is revealed, that they become not as those who received the scripture of old but the term was prolonged for them and so their hearts were hardened, and many of them are evil-livers.
76:24 So submit patiently to thy Lord's command, and obey not of them any guilty one or disbeliever.

So 'submit' in Islam is for a Muslim to give over, yield or surrender to the power and authority of Allah.
In 57:16 a Muslim must submit to Allah's reminder and to the truth which is revealed which is the Quran Only [Allah's words as revealed] and nothing else.


In 76:24 submit to they Lord's command which can only be in the Quran and no where else.


Since Allah stated a Muslim must submit to the Quran [Allah's reminder, the truth and commands], then the Quran must be sufficient to show the details that a Muslim must perform to conform with submission.


The Submitter's site do provide how to follow up on the practices of submission as sourced solely from the Quran. Here are the details from this submitter's site;


Quote:
The Religious Duties in Submission are a gift from God to help grow our souls.


  1. The Contact Prayers (Salat)
  2. The Obligatory Charity (Zakat) and regular Charity
  3. Fasting during the month of Ramadan (Seyam)
  4. Pilgrimage (Hajj)
Of course, there is a lot more one can do to remember God and grow our souls. We encourage you to read the Quran to find out more.


[2:177] Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west.
Righteous are those
-who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and
-they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and
-to free the slaves; and
-they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and
-give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and
-they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and
-they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war.
These are the truthful; these are the righteous.
Religious Duties in Submission (Islam)



Now you tell what is the critical practice of submission that is missing in the Allah's completed, perfected and final Quran.


I find it very odd, when Allah claimed his Quran is completed, perfected and final, yet you dare to go against Allah's word by implying his Quran is not completed, perfected and final due to a lack of information on how to submit.




Btw, according to Allah 'submit' is inferior to 'believe' in Islam.
I have raised a thread to discuss this and you did not give any credible counter to it.
49:14 The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The point here is 'submit' is merely a state of yielding and surrender to be followed by certain processes which are provided in the Quran.
'Believe' is a stronger state of piety to Allah and Islam that involved greater intellectual and practices of Islam that need to be established into one's mind.
The principles and details of how to reinforce believe is also provided in the Quran.


Do you dispute 49:14 which imply believe is stronger than 'submit'?
To discuss note this thread;
'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?
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Old 02-06-2016, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,375,454 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't think you survey the site.
Note this;
Religious Duties | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)


The meaning of 'submit' in this context is;
submit = to give over or yield to the power or authority of another.
Submit | Define Submit at Dictionary.com


The Quran mentioned the term 'submit' in the following sense;

57:16 Is not the time ripe for the hearts of those who believe to submit to Allah's reminder and to the truth which is revealed, that they become not as those who received the scripture of old but the term was prolonged for them and so their hearts were hardened, and many of them are evil-livers.
76:24 So submit patiently to thy Lord's command, and obey not of them any guilty one or disbeliever.
So 'submit' in Islam is for a Muslim to give over, yield or surrender to the power and authority of Allah.
In 57:16 a Muslim must submit to Allah's reminder and to the truth which is revealed which is the Quran Only [Allah's words as revealed] and nothing else.


In 76:24 submit to they Lord's command which can only be in the Quran and no where else.


Since Allah stated a Muslim must submit to the Quran [Allah's reminder, the truth and commands], then the Quran must be sufficient to show the details that a Muslim must perform to conform with submission.


The Submitter's site do provide how to follow up on the practices of submission as sourced solely from the Quran. Here are the details from this submitter's site;







Now you tell what is the critical practice of submission that is missing in the Allah's completed, perfected and final Quran.


I find it very odd, when Allah claimed his Quran is completed, perfected and final, yet you dare to go against Allah's word by implying his Quran is not completed, perfected and final due to a lack of information on how to submit.




Btw, according to Allah 'submit' is inferior to 'believe' in Islam.
I have raised a thread to discuss this and you did not give any credible counter to it.
49:14 The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The point here is 'submit' is merely a state of yielding and surrender to be followed by certain processes which are provided in the Quran.
'Believe' is a stronger state of piety to Allah and Islam that involved greater intellectual and practices of Islam that need to be established into one's mind.
The principles and details of how to reinforce believe is also provided in the Quran.


Do you dispute 49:14 which imply believe is stronger than 'submit'?
To discuss note this thread;
'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?
The Qur'an is final and complete. It primary message is "There is only one God(swt) and only he is to be worshiped" the Qur'an does do that.

It also has a secondary role of explaining why we should perform Islam and it does that.

Muhammad(swaws) through the Sunnah tells us what Islam is and how to perform it.

Now where does the Qur'an tell us what the 6 Pillars of Islam or or what are the 6 basic beliefs a Muslim should have. Should Have, it does not necessarily mean a person is not a Muslim if they only believe the first and are not convinced of the other 5.

There have been 33 viewers of this thread so far. So far no one has disputed the fact that we can not learn how to perform Islam through the Qur'an. That is not the purpose of the Qur'an. I do not believe Islam fits your definition of Islam.

If any Muslim believes I am in error with my comment, it is their obligation and duty to correct me. I do not represent Islam and can only speak for myself. Other Muslims may believe differently and it is their duty to speak up if they do.
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Old 02-07-2016, 01:56 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,606,380 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The Qur'an is final and complete. It primary message is "There is only one God(swt) and only he is to be worshiped" the Qur'an does do that.

It also has a secondary role of explaining why we should perform Islam and it does that.

Muhammad(swaws) through the Sunnah tells us what Islam is and how to perform it.
The first responsibility of Muhammad was merely a warner and a "parrot" of Allah.
When Gabriel recites whatever messages from Allah to Muhammad, Muhammad's sole duty was to recite verbatim to his listeners and scribes. Muhammad was not supposed to add anything to the messages he received from Gabriel.


If Muhammad was to advise his companions what Islam is and how to perform it, he has to refer to what he heard from Gabriel and that was recited to his listeners and scribes.
So basically Muhammad still have to refer to what is in the Quran and no where else.


If Muhammad advise of something and insist it is from Allah but it is not in line with the principles in the Quran, i.e. the sole words of Allah, then he has sinned.
For example the Hadith that Muslimah must cover their hairs with the hijab. This is not in compliance with what Allah stated in the Quran. Therefore the covering of hairs by Muslimahs is not an imperative rule of Islam [per Quran].



Quote:
Now where does the Qur'an tell us what the 6 Pillars of Islam or or what are the 6 basic beliefs a Muslim should have. Should Have, it does not necessarily mean a person is not a Muslim if they only believe the first and are not convinced of the other 5.
There is no such thing as "6 Pillars of Islam" in the Quran.
However the each element of the "6 Pillars of Islam" are in the Quran in various verses.
The "6 Pillars of Islam" is merely an organization and repackaging the essential elements of Islam to facilitate communications.
The rules and conditions of each of the 6 elements are provided in the Quran itself. e.g. exceptions for prayers are provided for special circumstances.

Quote:
There have been 33 viewers of this thread so far. So far no one has disputed the fact that we can not learn how to perform Islam through the Qur'an. That is not the purpose of the Qur'an. I do not believe Islam fits your definition of Islam.

If any Muslim believes I am in error with my comment, it is their obligation and duty to correct me. I do not represent Islam and can only speak for myself. Other Muslims may believe differently and it is their duty to speak up if they do.
33 viewers do not mean all are Muslims.
I noted most of the Muslims here are not very critical, analytical, deep and wide thinkers.
As I claim most Muslims by default are bias, subjective and subliminally emotional.
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Old 02-07-2016, 03:40 PM
 
3,204 posts, read 1,059,876 times
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Muslim is someone who obeys commands from Allah (SWT). Those commands are in the Qur'an. Obeying the commands is submission (Islam). Therefore, a Muslim can learn about Islam from the Qur'an only. Hadith books can only comply with the Qur'an and have no authority whatsoever on their own reqarding learning about Islam.
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Old 02-07-2016, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,375,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Muslim is someone who obeys commands from Allah (SWT). Those commands are in the Qur'an. Obeying the commands is submission (Islam). Therefore, a Muslim can learn about Islam from the Qur'an only. Hadith books can only comply with the Qur'an and have no authority whatsoever on their own reqarding learning about Islam.
As Salaamu Alaikum

While that is essentially true. The Qur'an also states we are to obey Muhammad(swt) and it is through him we learn how to perform Islam.

It is through the Sunnah we learn:

How to say the Shahadah
How to perform Hajj
How to bbey the 5 pillars of Faith

etc.

While the Qur'an teaches us why to perform Islam it is the Sunnah that tells us how.
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Old 02-07-2016, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,606,380 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As Salaamu Alaikum

While that is essentially true. The Qur'an also states we are to obey Muhammad(swt) and it is through him we learn how to perform Islam.

It is through the Sunnah we learn:

How to say the Shahadah
How to perform Hajj
How to bbey the 5 pillars of Faith

etc.

While the Qur'an teaches us why to perform Islam it is the Sunnah that tells us how.
The "how" to perform the various rituals from the Sunnah are not critical at all to Islam-proper.
These 'hows' from the Sunnah are merely the guides and because they were compiled by human[s] many are vulnerable to errors regardless of how they are claimed to be authentic because humans are never perfect and are fallible.


There are 6,236 verses in the Quran.
When a Muslim has read the whole Quran and aligned his mind firstly with the critical elements, that Muslims would have covered the elements of the so-called Shahada [even without knowing the later invented term 'Shahada' which is not in the Quran], i.e.


1. Lā ʾilāha ʾillā l-Lāh
3:18. Allah (Himself) is witness that there is no God save Him. And the angels and the men of learning (too are witness). Maintaining His creation in justice, there is no God save Him, the Almighty, the Wise.


2. Muḥammadur rasūlu l-Lāh
There are many verses which mentioned Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.


The above essential elements are in the Quran, therefore there is no imperative need for a Shahada for one to qualify as a Muslim.
The Shahada was compiled by humans based on elements from the Quran to organize and make procedures more systematic for those who are less learned with the Quran.


The danger with the formulation of the Shahada by human could potentially create a liability.
Note this contention view to the Sunni Shahada
Quote:
The majority of Muslims today are not satisfied with the Shahada given in 3:18 and they add to it the words:
Quote:
"and I bear witness that Muhammad is His messenger".

To add any words or names to the Testimony given by God is in fact to imply that the Testimony given by God in the Quran is incomplete, or that God forgot the second half of the Testimony! Needless to say, God is not forgetful nor does God make misatkes!

We are commanded clearly in the Quran to follow the Quran and nothing else (see: Quran Alone). As a result, all those who utter the shahada which includes the name of the prophet Muhammad are not following the Quran.
Quran-Islam.org - True Islam


How to Perform Hajj?
According to the Quran a Muslim is encouraged to perform the haj but only if one can make it [with physical means and monetary money]. The hajj is not 100% compulsory.


As for the rituals from the Quran note this;
Thereader of the Quran will note that all the rites of Hajj that are decreed by God Almighty are to be found in the Quran. Sadly, many idolatrous rituals have crept into the Hajj that is practised today. These corrupted rituals, not only have no Quranic basis, but they also clearly violate the concept of Hajj as given in the Quran.
In an attempt to present the true Quranic Hajj to the reader the following issues are analysed:
FIRST : The rites of Hajj that are decreed in the Quran.
SECOND : The idolatrous rituals that violate the Quran.
THIRD : The price of abandoning God’s Law.


Quran-Islam.org - True Islam




How to obey the 5 pillars of Faith
The 5 pillars of Faith are stated in the Quran in various verses.
Therefore a Muslim who has read the Quran thoroughly and comply with Allah expectations, that Muslim should have understood those '5 pillars of Faith' in his own ways. He may not called or term them 'the 5 pillars of Faith' but nevertheless he would have complied with them.


As with the Shahada, "the 5 Pillars of Faith" was compiled by humans based on elements from the Quran to organize and make procedures more systematic for those who are less learned with the Quran.


Since the Quran is complete, perfected and final, there is no imperative need for the following 'human invented' terms to be a Muslim;
1. How to say the Shahadah
2. How to perform Hajj
3. How to obey the 5 pillars of Faith

By following all that is in the Quran [Allah's words] will be sufficient for a Muslim to meet Allah's expectations on Judgment Day.


If one add the Sunnah's [fallible human] version of Shahada, Hajj rites, one could perform rituals that do not meet the expectations of Allah and thus could sin and incur Allah's wrath on Judgment Day.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-07-2016 at 08:56 PM..
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:33 AM
 
3,204 posts, read 1,059,876 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As Salaamu Alaikum

While that is essentially true. The Qur'an also states we are to obey Muhammad(swt) and it is through him we learn how to perform Islam.

It is through the Sunnah we learn:

How to say the Shahadah
How to perform Hajj
How to bbey the 5 pillars of Faith

etc.

While the Qur'an teaches us why to perform Islam it is the Sunnah that tells us how.
Wa alaikum assalaam
The Qur'an does not tell us to obey "Muhammad" even once but obey the "messenger". A messenger delivers the message and obeying any command in the message is in fact obeying the messenger as well as Allah. The Qur'an is clear on this point but quite a few people do not try to understand the Qur'an. A Muslim learns about Islam by studying the verses of the Qur'an and pondering over them to get the the true meanings of them.

Even the messenger was obeying commands in the message from Allah (SWT). Sunnah is, in fact, the way messenger Muhammad had obeyed the commands in the Qur'an.

Salaam
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