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Old 02-23-2016, 01:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe you are missing things here.


As I had written a Muslim is one who has entered into a covenant with Allah and is expected to submit, surrender, believe [with seriousness] obey, worship, do one duty, etc.
It is you who are missing the point.
Take your time to understand this:

Someone enters into a covenant with Allah to submit, surrender, obey, serve and worship Allah but has not done any of these actions, submitting, surrendering, obeying, serving or worshipping Allah yet. He is believer (momin). You rate a Muslim by the number of rules or commands he has obeyed. With your ignorance, he is a Muslim despite not having obeyed any command yet. How can you then rate him Muslim without obeying any rule or command?
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Old 02-23-2016, 02:31 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is you who are missing the point.
Take your time to understand this:

Someone enters into a covenant with Allah to submit, surrender, obey, serve and worship Allah but has not done any of these actions, submitting, surrendering, obeying, serving or worshipping Allah yet. He is believer (momin). You rate a Muslim by the number of rules or commands he has obeyed. With your ignorance, he is a Muslim despite not having obeyed any command yet. How can you then rate him Muslim without obeying any rule or command?
OK I mis-understood your point in this case.
I thought your 'any' refer to certain expected rules and commands and I response based on that thought.


Yes, my objective point is I rate a Muslim by the number of rules or command he has obeyed within the Quran.
Therefore if there are 1,000 rules/commands he must obey and if a Muslim obey zero of these 1,000 rules/commands then he is a Zero-%-Muslim.


The question is:
is a Zero-%-Muslim still a Muslim?


Similarly,
is a student who score Zero marks, i.e. a Zero-%-Student still a student [who had officially enrolled in the school].
It is obvious, technically, the student who score Zero mark, i.e. Zero-%-Student is officially a student of the school.


The point with Islam is this
A Muslims is an adherent of Islam who has explicitly or implicitly entered into a covenant with Allah.
When one entered into the covenant with Allah, the minimum a Muslim had done would be to
1. submit and
2. accept Allah is the only god and
3. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
4. believe in the Last Day
5. promise to do whatever is necessary subsequently.


Now here is the test;
What is that Muslim who has done 1-4 suddenly fall into a coma or has a serious mental problem that give him/her limited consciousness.
Is such a person a Muslim?


I believe such a person is fundamentally a Muslim [via having done 1-4] even though such a person would be a Zero-%-Muslim in terms of subsequently worshipping Allah [i.e. obey, serve, do one's duty, etc.] It is assumed the zero-%-Muslim did not commit any unforgivable sin or other greater sins.
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Old 02-26-2016, 01:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The question is:
is a Zero-%-Muslim still a Muslim?
No. He has not submitted.

Quote:
Similarly,
is a student who score Zero marks, i.e. a Zero-%-Student still a student [who had officially enrolled in the school].
It is obvious, technically, the student who score Zero mark, i.e. Zero-%-Student is officially a student of the school.
This analogy is a very poor anology.

Enrolling makes one a student of the college. He hasn't learnt anything yet. If he does not obey the rules of the college, he would be expelled and would no longer be a student of that college.

In Islam you go further, believing is enrolling as a believer and obeying rules makes you Muslim.


Quote:
The point with Islam is this
A Muslims is an adherent of Islam who has explicitly or implicitly entered into a covenant with Allah.
As long as you keep thinking that way, despite what a Muslim is telling you, you are not going to understand that Islam is all about submitting in terms of obeying Allah, obeying whatever is in the commands. It is more than just saying something but also doing something practically.

Quote:
When one entered into the covenant with Allah, the minimum a Muslim had done would be to
1. submit and
2. accept Allah is the only god and
3. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
4. believe in the Last Day
5. promise to do whatever is necessary subsequently.

Now here is the test;
What is that Muslim who has done 1-4 suddenly fall into a coma or has a serious mental problem that give him/her limited consciousness.
Is such a person a Muslim?
Yes. He has done the submitting. In your list, submitting should have been 5 and not at No. 1. Perhaps you do not know what it means to submit.

Quote:
I believe such a person is fundamentally a Muslim [via having done 1-4] even though such a person would be a Zero-%-Muslim in terms of subsequently worshipping Allah [i.e. obey, serve, do one's duty, etc.] It is assumed the zero-%-Muslim did not commit any unforgivable sin or other greater sins.
That person is Muslim because he had submitted already. That means he had served God already.
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Old 02-26-2016, 01:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. He has not submitted.
When a person enter into a covenant with Allah he is submitting to Allah. He has surrender his will to Allah via submission.
Note the meaning of submit:
submit = to yield oneself to the power or authority of another:
Submit | Define Submit at Dictionary.com

Quote:
This analogy is a very poor anology.

Enrolling makes one a student of the college. He hasn't learnt anything yet. If he does not obey the rules of the college, he would be expelled and would no longer be a student of that college.

In Islam you go further, believing is enrolling as a believer and obeying rules makes you Muslim.
Once a person has enrolled his is officially a student of the School till s/he is expelled or voluntary leave the school. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise.


Quote:
As long as you keep thinking that way, despite what a Muslim is telling you, you are not going to understand that Islam is all about submitting in terms of obeying Allah, obeying whatever is in the commands. It is more than just saying something but also doing something practically.
Note I posted in another post to differentiate 'Submission' against 'Believe'.
http://www.city-data.com/forum/43151170-post71.html

Quote:
Yes. He has done the submitting. In your list, submitting should have been 5 and not at No. 1. Perhaps you do not know what it means to submit.

That person is Muslim because he had submitted already. That means he had served God already.
Note my post;
http://www.city-data.com/forum/43151170-post71.html


The point is once a person has submitted to Allah as a Muslim, s/he will be submitting all his life to Allah till Paradise and forever.
Just is a slave is always a slave to his master till death or freed.


Therefore my point is submitting is at No 1 [first stage] and it persist in all the other subsequent stages.
So I am not imply submission stopped after No. 1.


At No 5, the Muslim is still submitting, but has the additional actions of other processes of believing, serving, obeying, doing duty as a Muslim, learning more about Islam.
Thus we can say a Muslim continue to submit as in No. 1 but his state of believe become greater and greater as he worship more and learn more about Islam and Allah.


This is why in 49:14 Allah implied the act of 'believe' is of higher grade than the act of 'submit': in [] = mine

49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye [Bedouins] obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


The wandering Arabs has not yet 'believe' because the faith has not yet entered into their hearts.
This is because they have not worship [believe, obey, serve, learn more about Islam] sufficiently yet.
This is why Allah advise them to follow up with "obey" Allah and His messenger and they will rewarded as believers on Judgment Day.
Note chapter 49 is one of the latest chapter of the Quran in chronological order thus override other Meccan verses on the same topic.


These wandering Arabs would probably have entered into a covenant with Allah in the initial stages. That is why Allah insist they only have submitted but has not believe yet.


Do you agree with Allah's logic on this?


Quote:
As long as you keep thinking that way, despite what a Muslim is telling you, you are not going to understand that Islam is all about submitting in terms of obeying Allah, obeying whatever is in the commands.
I have much respect for the opinions of Muslims regarding their views on their religion as they naturally MUST be bias towards their own belief even if the point is false.
Theistic believers can never [lest rare exceptions] give an overall objective view of their belief.
This is human nature.


I rely on my own intellectual capability and integrity based on my extensive knowledge of human nature, religion, spirituality, philosophy, Science, etc.


The point is ALL human beings are generically all the same in substance.
Therefore it we understand human nature thoroughly we can understand any groups of humans regardless of whatever religions or beliefs they have.
There is nothing special nor mysterious with any human being when they are a Muslim or convert to be a Muslim.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-26-2016 at 02:01 AM..
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Old 02-26-2016, 06:37 AM
 
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In Islam, Shahada is belief, not submitting. Submitting is obeying commands AFTER Shahada. In fact one is not even true believer if he does not obey the commands after the Shahada.
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Old 02-26-2016, 07:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Once a person has enrolled his is officially a student of the School till s/he is expelled or voluntary leave the school. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise.
I have no intention of learning or obeying your school's rules. I can still register my name in your school. It is a crap school.

That may be your school's rule but not Islam's rule. Islam's rule is if you do not believe and obey you are neither a believer nor a Muslim.

30:52-53 for surely you cannot make the dead to hear and you cannot make the deaf to hear the call when they turn back, and nor can you lead away the blind out of their error. You cannot make to hear any but those who believe in our verses so they shall submit (be Muslims).
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Old 02-26-2016, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In Islam, Shahada is belief, not submitting. Submitting is obeying commands AFTER Shahada. In fact one is not even true believer if he does not obey the commands after the Shahada.
As I had said, it we are to be more precise there is a very fine element of 'believe' in the Shahada, say 10% but the major element is 90% submission.


The fact is one initially surrender to the will of God, i.e. submit to the will as reflected in the Shahada and then it is from thence that a Muslim began the process of 'believe'.


For example, a loser has to surrender and submit to the conqueror or winner in war or a fight.
Once the loser has submitted, from then s/he has to obey the commands of his conqueror.


In the case of Islam, the person submit [surrender] to Allah, then began the process of believing proper after that.


This principle in Allah's word is reflected in 49:14, i.e.

49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye [Bedouins] obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

You are going against Allah's words as above?
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Old 02-26-2016, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I have no intention of learning or obeying your school's rules. I can still register my name in your school. It is a crap school.

That may be your school's rule but not Islam's rule. Islam's rule is if you do not believe and obey you are neither a believer nor a Muslim.

30:52-53 for surely you cannot make the dead to hear and you cannot make the deaf to hear the call when they turn back, and nor can you lead away the blind out of their error. You cannot make to hear any but those who believe in our verses so they shall submit (be Muslims).
The above principle is universal and it applies in all conditions.
There must always be an agreement [explicitly or implicitly] before any contract is enforceable.
Even Allah expressed and agree with such a rule in the Quran.
You are insulting Islam if you insist Islam do not follow such a universal rule.


As I had mentioned there is a small degree of 'believe' in submission.
In the context of 30:53 the 'believe' is the weaker kind [lesser degree] of "believe."


Note Chapter 30 is a Meccan verse [74th chronologically].
Chapter 49 is one of the final Medina chapters [112 or 3 chronologically] in which Allah stated and implied with an example, 'submission' is of a lower grade than 'believe.'
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Old 02-27-2016, 01:50 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had said, it we are to be more precise there is a very fine element of 'believe' in the Shahada, say 10% but the major element is 90% submission.
The Shahada is entirely 'belief'. The action is expression of what one believes about Allah and Muhammad.

Quote:
The fact is one initially surrender to the will of God, i.e. submit to the will as reflected in the Shahada and then it is from thence that a Muslim began the process of 'believe'.
In the Shahada, one does not say that I submit but I witness. One is giving testamony that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger and servant.

Quote:
For example, a loser has to surrender and submit to the conqueror or winner in war or a fight.
Once the loser has submitted, from then s/he has to obey the commands of his conqueror.
Do you mean these people who say Shahada were losers in a war and are giving testamony under duress? You come up with some crazy thoughts when under duress from shaytan.

Quote:
In the case of Islam, the person submit [surrender] to Allah, then began the process of believing proper after that.
Believe what AFTERWARDS?
You are understanding it as if the only action a Muslim has to take in surrendering to Allah is say the Shahada and that's it, he has to do no other action to be a Muslim. Yet you already know that if YOU don't believe, no action will make you even 0% Muslim. Yes? Did you state so or not?

Make up your mind one way or the other, will you? You can't have one foot on one boat and the other on another boat; you will only sink if you do that.


Quote:
This principle in Allah's word is reflected in 49:14, i.e.

49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye [Bedouins] obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

You are going against Allah's words as above?
No. I understand the verse but you do not.

Allah is not confirming that they are submitting but that they should not say "they believe" but that the best they can say is "they submit". This kind of submission (without believing) does not make one a Muslim but the submission AFTER believing. The verse goes on to tell you and the Bedouins that if they "obey Allah and His messenger" they will get the reward for it. Do you know what is meant by "obey Allah and His messenger"? How can you "obey Allah and His messenger" when you do not even believe Allah and His messenger?
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Old 02-27-2016, 02:10 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above principle is universal and it applies in all conditions.
There must always be an agreement [explicitly or implicitly] before any contract is enforceable.
Even Allah expressed and agree with such a rule in the Quran.
You are insulting Islam if you insist Islam do not follow such a universal rule.


As I had mentioned there is a small degree of 'believe' in submission.
In the context of 30:53 the 'believe' is the weaker kind [lesser degree] of "believe."


Note Chapter 30 is a Meccan verse [74th chronologically].
Chapter 49 is one of the final Medina chapters [112 or 3 chronologically] in which Allah stated and implied with an example, 'submission' is of a lower grade than 'believe.'
You are lost here in understanding the Qur'an.
Submission without believing is not just of lower grade but of no grade. You have already alluded to it. Proper submission of the Islamic quality is only after 'believe'. In fact, 'believe' is prerequiste to such submission. Both go together to make one a Muslim.

In other words, you can 'believe' and still not be a Muslim. It is submitting after believing that makes one a Muslim. Believing is the first step and submitting ("obeying Allah and His messenger") ongoing step afterwards.
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