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Old 03-05-2016, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a denial for psychological and emotional reasons.


For those who recognized the Ahadiths and Sira, there are full of stories where Muhammad committed evils, violence and unjust acts. Juju has given the various references from the Ahadiths.
There is no written Sira. The Sira has to be interpolated mostly from passed down tradition and , Three books that many non-Muslims think are the Sira are:

Ishaq/Hisham " Sirat Rasool Allah"

Shihabuddin Abu al-'Abbas Ahmad ibn an-Naqib al-Misri "Reliance of the Traveller"

as-Sayyi Sabiq "Fiqh us-Sunnah"

However they are not as the Sirat was not written. There have been many attempts to put the Sirat in written form but none have had any verified source for their content. The Sirat is basically a concept of ideal that we seek to achieve. More like a state of being rather than an instruction manual.

The Ahadith are a guide for Islamic Jurisprudence and best left in the hands of Islamic lawyers than laymen with no background in Islamic jurisprudence. They are not a set of rules. A reader of Ahadith is aware that all of the Ahadith are truncated verses from something much longer. Their accuracy is dependent upon how they were passed down and the reliability of the original witness.they are not sacred and should not be considered as such. Unlike the Qur'an they are not free from error. Their primary purpose is to assist Islamic Jurists and Judges to make legal decisions.

Yes many ayyats from the Qur'an and Ahadith have been posted in this forum as "Proof" that Muhammad(saws) committed evil deeds, the only thing they have proven is that the poster has very little knowledge of the Qur'an and virtually no knowledge of the Ahadith.
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Old 03-05-2016, 10:16 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,605,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There is no written Sira. The Sira has to be interpolated mostly from passed down tradition and , Three books that many non-Muslims think are the Sira are:

Ishaq/Hisham " Sirat Rasool Allah"

Shihabuddin Abu al-'Abbas Ahmad ibn an-Naqib al-Misri "Reliance of the Traveller"

as-Sayyi Sabiq "Fiqh us-Sunnah"

However they are not as the Sirat was not written. There have been many attempts to put the Sirat in written form but none have had any verified source for their content. The Sirat is basically a concept of ideal that we seek to achieve. More like a state of being rather than an instruction manual.

The Ahadith are a guide for Islamic Jurisprudence and best left in the hands of Islamic lawyers than laymen with no background in Islamic jurisprudence. They are not a set of rules. A reader of Ahadith is aware that all of the Ahadith are truncated verses from something much longer. Their accuracy is dependent upon how they were passed down and the reliability of the original witness.they are not sacred and should not be considered as such. Unlike the Qur'an they are not free from error. Their primary purpose is to assist Islamic Jurists and Judges to make legal decisions.

Yes many ayyats from the Qur'an and Ahadith have been posted in this forum as "Proof" that Muhammad(saws) committed evil deeds, the only thing they have proven is that the poster has very little knowledge of the Qur'an and virtually no knowledge of the Ahadith.
It is a fact of human nature, whatever information that were communicated orally then eventually written into texts from memory, especially more than 500 years ago are definitely exposed to corruption and difference from the ORIGINAL information.
Therefore the Quran, Ahadith and Sira would have been exposed to the same corruption and there is no way they can be the same as their original information or historical facts.


The degree of corruption and difference from the original is only a matter of degree based on the emphasis and attempts made to keep them to the original.
My guess of the degree of corruption would be [relatively] as follows;

1. Quran - 15% corrupted from the original recitations
2. Ahadiths - 50% corrupted from original events and sayings.
3. Sira - 60% corrupted from original events.
The above % are not exact but show the relative degrees of corruption between the three sources.


Note the present Quran in reality can only be at best 85% of the original recitations.


However from the perspective of Islam, the Quran is claimed to be 100% true to the original recitations of Muhammad. This is only a claim not the reality.


Now the Quran proclaimed it is the ONLY authorized source text and basis for Islam. No other texts can represent Islam. Therefore according to the Quran the Ahadith and Sira cannot be of any authority of Islamic matters.


Thus a Quran-Only Muslims will rely fully on the Quran only and totally reject the Ahadith and Sira.




However for others who refer to the Quran plus Ahadith, Sira, one can still infer the life and autobiography of Muhammad [to the best of our ability] from the Quran, Ahadith and Sira but we must take into account the degree of credibility of each source.
Therefore whatever we infer of Muhammad's life we MUST qualify that such an inference is conditioned to the following, i.e.


1. Quran - 15% corrupted from the original recitations
2. Ahadiths - 50% corrupted from original events and sayings.
3. Sira - 60% corrupted from original events.


Therefore when we infer Muhammad was an aggressive warrior and committed certain deeds we need to qualify our inference based on the above conditions of degree of credibility.


In addition, the above inference must be cross referenced to human nature and other knowledge.
For example if I infer Muhammad has a high sex drive as evidenced from the numerous wives he has, logically I am right based on the knowledge of human nature and psychology. It is obvious, if one do not have a high sex drive, there is no way they can have sex with so many women and in Muhammad's case he was above 50.
Of course there could be other reasons and exceptions, then the onus of proof is on the one who claim the [positive] exception.
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Old 03-05-2016, 10:59 PM
 
40,433 posts, read 26,960,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
and what does that prove? Only that we all are individuals. They is no indication ALL Muslims are violent or even a Majority. Each and every one of us is different, we individually are accountable for our actions. Islam is not a group, organization or even an organized religion we are individuals that Submit to God(swt) in the manner we our self believe to be the proper manner. No person of group represents all Muslims.

People of all types call them self Muslim. Good, bad, ugly, indifferent, the whole spectrum of human characteristics. There is no joining Islam, or any required initiation, there is no authoritative central leader, there is no ordained clergy nor even any"Membership" requirements as there is no membership. The only thing we all have in common is we all claim to be Muslim. We do not even have agreement over what it means to be a Muslim. We ourself do not know who is a Muslim, we only can know who claims to be Muslim.
Sorry, my friend, but this is a cop-out. You know full well that there are organized Muslims who act in concert in large numbers and perpetrate great evil in the world. This is no mere "No True Scotsman" problem. They are numerous, well-financed, and aggressive. That you are not among them is wonderful but this pretense to a "head-in-the-sand" ignorance of a very real, significant and manifest threat to ALL peace-loving and civilized peoples is beneath you, Wood.
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:05 AM
 
3,203 posts, read 1,059,229 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Islam is an evil, sick ideology. Good people do not choose to follow an evil ideology.
That evil statement is obviously condemning every Muslim, including myself. Am I evil? Yes, according to this evil and sick statement.

Hate against All Muslims is sick and evil.
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:15 AM
 
3,203 posts, read 1,059,229 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Sorry, my friend, but this is a cop-out. You know full well that there are organized Muslims who act in concert in large numbers and perpetrate great evil in the world. This is no mere "No True Scotsman" problem. They are numerous, well-financed, and aggressive. That you are not among them is wonderful but this pretense to a "head-in-the-sand" ignorance of a very real, significant and manifest threat to ALL peace-loving and civilized peoples is beneath you, Wood.
They are organised criminals. They are not organised in Islam as there is no Pope directing them in Islam. The two are two different acts of organisation. To blame Wood or any other Muslim for acts of some criminals cannot be fair.
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:44 AM
 
3,203 posts, read 1,059,229 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
I think his statement is pretty clear. He is referring to the recorded acts of Muhammad. The man who is supposed to be the "ideal man" and example for Muslims. Are you saying that there are Muslims that condemn Muhammad for his acts?
He is referring to all Muslims as evil because of them following Islam the evil ideology. As for Muhammad doing evil acts, i don't believe he did any evil acts. It is also false idea that Muslims are supposed to follow every action of Muhammad as an "ideal man". Nobody has ever followed Muhammad in everything he did nor are we Muslims required to do everything he did. For example, no Muslim has ever had 17 wives at any time. Not every Muslim has ever lived in Mecca and Madina. He was speaking in Arabic. I don't speak in Arabic. The "example" refers to the way he had obeyed the commands in the Qur'an. I obey those commmands the way he obeyed them.
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Old 03-06-2016, 08:29 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 761,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
He is referring to all Muslims as evil because of them following Islam the evil ideology. As for Muhammad doing evil acts, i don't believe he did any evil acts. It is also false idea that Muslims are supposed to follow every action of Muhammad as an "ideal man". Nobody has ever followed Muhammad in everything he did nor are we Muslims required to do everything he did. For example, no Muslim has ever had 17 wives at any time. Not every Muslim has ever lived in Mecca and Madina. He was speaking in Arabic. I don't speak in Arabic. The "example" refers to the way he had obeyed the commands in the Qur'an. I obey those commmands the way he obeyed them.
The Quran refers to Muhammad's life as "a beautiful pattern of conduct for anyone whose hope is in Allah" (33:21) and "an exalted standard of character" (68:4).

Muhammed raped a little child:
Aisha said: The Apostle of Allah married me when I was six years old. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old.(Sunan Abu Dawud, Number 2116)

.....and today we have Muslim rape gangs raping children, child brides and massive child abuse in Muslim countries:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_egOqpEcAQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqkxjI2oRGI

Muhammed and the Quran also condone the rape of non-Muslim women. Specifically, captives and slaves.

The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

Today we have mass rapes by Muslim men in western countries.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uNBoUqGvVs

NOT ONE MUSLIM, INCLUDING YOU, WILL SAY MUHAMMED WAS WRONG TO DO THESE HORRIBLE THINGS.

In fact, you defend evil and tell lies.

In fact, Muhammed wrote the Quran and made up rules so he could satisfy his own sexual perversions. Besides all the wives, he forbid contact with 'filthy' women during their periods for everyone else, but for Muhammed, the rules were a bit different:

Bukhari (6:298)
Narrated 'Aisha:
The prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).

The prophet would do all his wives in one night

Bukhari (62:6)
"The prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives."

Muhammed also had women as slaves and would screw them. He had a child by at least one of them.
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Old 03-06-2016, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,372,751 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Sorry, my friend, but this is a cop-out. You know full well that there are organized Muslims who act in concert in large numbers and perpetrate great evil in the world. This is no mere "No True Scotsman" problem. They are numerous, well-financed, and aggressive. That you are not among them is wonderful but this pretense to a "head-in-the-sand" ignorance of a very real, significant and manifest threat to ALL peace-loving and civilized peoples is beneath you, Wood.
There are no organizations thatrepresent Islam but Muslims an be found in virtually every type of organization that exists.Just as you will find all types of groups within every type of demographic, ethnic population. None of which represent their ethnic or religious affiliation. There is no organization any Muslims are required to jointo practice Islam. We have no need of clergy as each Muslim is his own cleric nor any need of any building called a Mosque as technically a Mosque is simply the roughly 2 square feet of space a Muslim prays within. Although Muslims are actually forbidden to follow any religious cleric, there are some that do also Muslims are forbidden to be aggressors but some are.

There is no way to identify a Muslim except to assume they are Muslim if they say they are. Being Muslim is known only to the Individual and Allaah(swt) No baptism, or other ceremony required nor any required religious education.

Islamic organizational criteria is not much different from the methodology of non-denominational Christians. While there are sects among Muslims, there are not supposed to be. From the Human view a Muslim is anyone who claims to be Muslim. However, if any group has membership requirements and claims to be Islamic, it probably isn't.
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:24 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 761,001 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That evil statement is obviously condemning every Muslim, including myself. Am I evil? Yes, according to this evil and sick statement.

Hate against All Muslims is sick and evil.
Let's reword your statement slightly.

"That evil statement is obviously condemning every Nazi, including myself. Am I evil? Yes, according to this evil and sick statement. "

Hate against All Nazis is sick and evil."

Let's try it again.

"That evil statement is obviously condemning every devotee of Satan, including myself. Am I evil? Yes, according to this evil and sick statement.

Hate against All devotees of Satan is sick and evil."

One more time.

"That evil statement is obviously condemning every devotee of Marxist ideology, including myself. Am I evil? Yes, according to this evil and sick statement.

Hate against All devotees of Marxist ideology is sick and evil."

I say that good people do not choose to follow ideologies that are evil. That includes Islam and it's hate and terrorism and slaughter and mass rape and slavery and pedophilia and human rights abuses.

Support how you think good people can choose to follow an evil ideology.
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,372,751 times
Reputation: 7408
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The Quran refers to Muhammad's life as "a beautiful pattern of conduct for anyone whose hope is in Allah" (33:21) and "an exalted standard of character" (68:4).

Muhammed raped a little child:
Aisha said: The Apostle of Allah married me when I was six years old. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old.(Sunan Abu Dawud, Number 2116)

.....and today we have Muslim rape gangs raping children, child brides and massive child abuse in Muslim countries:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_egOqpEcAQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqkxjI2oRGI

Muhammed and the Quran also condone the rape of non-Muslim women. Specifically, captives and slaves.

The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

Today we have mass rapes by Muslim men in western countries.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uNBoUqGvVs

NOT ONE MUSLIM, INCLUDING YOU, WILL SAY MUHAMMED WAS WRONG TO DO THESE HORRIBLE THINGS.

In fact, you defend evil and tell lies.

In fact, Muhammed wrote the Quran and made up rules so he could satisfy his own sexual perversions. Besides all the wives, he forbid contact with 'filthy' women during their periods for everyone else, but for Muhammed, the rules were a bit different:

Bukhari (6:298)
Narrated 'Aisha:
The prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to fondle me. While in itikaf, he used to bring his head near me and I would wash it while I used to be in my periods (menses).

The prophet would do all his wives in one night

Bukhari (62:6)
"The prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives."

Muhammed also had women as slaves and would screw them. He had a child by at least one of them.
Prove what the age of Aisha was. There is nothing she herself wrote that gives it and the only sources are traced back the words of a man who was only 12 years old when Aisha died and he did not write down what he thought she said until he was 80 years old.

Other ahadith indicate that Aisha had to have been at least 18-21 when she consummated her marriage with Muhammad(saws)

As for Bukhari 62:6

THE ACTUAL VERSION.
عَنْ قَتَادَةَ عَنْ أَنَسٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ



أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ كَانَ يَطُوفُ عَلَى نِسَائِهِ فِي لَيْلَةٍ وَاحِدَةٍ وَلَهُ تِسْعُ نِسْوَةٍ

Translation; Narrated Anas: The Prophet used to visit all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.” {Bukhari ::Volume 7 :: Book 62 :: Hadith 6 }



Islam Haters Use :

Bukhari (62:6) – “The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.”



Analysis ::

SubhanAllah, What a great way of lie!



The Actual version shows there is nothing special in the above hadith,It only shows that Muhammad S.A.W was responsible and caring person and cared for all wifes.



Does simply visiting means he had Intercourse with All of them ?



The query probably rises from the famous translation of this Hadith which is there in a well known software. in that software it reads;

“The Prophet I used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.”



One can clearly see that the words “(have sexual relations with)” are in parenthesis that is to say these are not the direct meanings of the Arabic words but addition by the translator to help understand ACCORDING TO HIS UNDERSTANDING.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/duroo...-/482710262844
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