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Old 02-08-2016, 12:29 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Just replying to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Wonder where you read Ali Sina is against all religions, at no time I have not read him condemning other religions.
I used to belong to Faithfreedom Forum prior to accepting Islam and at that time it was primarily a forum for Atheists and others who were anti all religions. I became a Muslim in 2005 at which time I was banned from Faithfreedom.

Looks like Ali Sina has toned down his Anti-Christian and Anti-Jewish views that he was more open about when He first opened Faithfreedom. seems like he is now seeking support from the Christians.
But Looking through his archives I have found some tidbits he has not yet deleted:

Just as Thomas instead of being disgusted of indecencies and lustfulness of John De Ruiter is apologetic of him and thinks this is something divine, Muslims read the perversities of Muhammad and see no problem in that.

This brainwashing is not reserved to the followers of De Ruiter and Muhammad. The followers of all religions have their stupid beliefs that they are unable to see. These people can see perfectly the errors of the believers of other religions but are incapable of seeing their own.

Shouldn’t we ask ourselves whether we are also as brainwashed as Thomas? Don’t we believe in crazy ideas with no scientific or logical backing? Why is it that we can see so clearly the follies of others and are so blind of our own? I am not just talking to Muslims but to all those who believe. Those who believe in any religion should ask themselves whether they too are Thomases of their religion.



The following article is about John de Ruiter. It gives a very good insight into the gullibility of human nature and the willingness of some to be fooled. It is an excellent read for those who may wonder why people followed Muhammad, or any other prophet for that matter, with such resignation and blissful abandonment.
Which Religion to follw: A review of John de Ruiter

You also forgot to say that according to Islam (and other Semitic religions) the purpose of god in sending these messengers is to make himself known and demand to be worshiped.

As science has absolutely proven, we are not being created (in a single act) but evolved through billions of years of evolution. We are conscience of ourselves since we became homo sapience. That is less than one hundred thousand years ago. And as the Bible and the Quran narrate, this god revealed himself to humans only about 6000 years ago. There are a few questions in respect to this hypothesis. Why God is so much in need to be recognized that he created this entire universe and put in it “conscious people” to know him and to worship him? Does he feel lonely? Why He NEEDs to be worshiped? Why he wants to be known? Why this is so important to him that he would even burn us eternally in the blazing hell fire if we fail to recognize him and believe in his messenger? And finally what was he doing for those billions of years when humans were not evolved enough to know him and to worship him?
Faith Freedom International

Children are very cruel to each other, just as our ancestors were to each other. A child who is bullied by bigger boys can take comfort by imagining that one day a powerful imaginary friend would come to punish his oppressors. In his mind he would see his enemies crushed. Our ancestors thought the same way. When the enemy dealt with them cruelly and they had no one to come to their rescue, when they were persecuted and aggrieved, they would plead to God to come to their aid. They would imagine a Messiah who would come to rescue them, who would take vengeance from their enemies and who would rule with justice. The Psalms 35 is such desperate call for help.

1 A psalm of David. O LORD, oppose those who oppose me. Declare war on those who are attacking me. 2 Put on your armor, and take up your shield. Prepare for battle, and come to my aid. 3 Lift up your spear and javelin and block the way of my enemies. Let me hear you say, "I am your salvation!" 4 Humiliate and disgrace those trying to kill me; turn them back in confusion. 5 Blow them away like chaff in the wind – a wind sent by the angel of the LORD. 6 Make their path dark and slippery, with the angel of the LORD pursuing them. 7 Although I did them no wrong, they laid a trap for me. Although I did them no wrong, they dug a pit for me. 8 So let sudden ruin overtake them! Let them be caught in the snare they set for me! Let them fall to destruction in the pit they dug for me. 9 Then I will rejoice in the LORD. I will be glad because he rescues me. 10 I will praise him from the bottom of my heart: "LORD, who can compare with you? Who else rescues the weak and helpless from the strong? Who else protects the poor and needy from those who want to rob them?"

As the species, we humans pass the same stages of growth of a single individual. In the early stages of our evolution we needed to think magically. We needed fairytales. We needed to believe in a powerful, omnipotent, omniscient heavenly father who looked over us, who provided for us, who loved us and even sometimes punished us if we were not good enough. We needed to believe in the power of prayers. In our moments of loneliness, despair and troubles, we needed to believe that we are not alone; that there is an amorous father somewhere in the Heaven who loves us and who cares for us. We needed to believe that he would never let us down. When we could no more rely on our own resources, we still could rely on God. When we were oppressed and could not reclaim our rights, we could believe that there is going to be a Day of Reckoning when the wronged ones would be rewarded and the oppressors would be punished. Even if this God was not real, its effect on our psyche and emotional well-being was very real and indispensable.
Muslim Dissidents Denounce Islam

Naturally, no rational person can believe in the accuracy of such an absurd tale. If it was so easy to prove the existence of God, then I challenge, the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims to invoke their god and ask him to perform the same miracle in front of TV cameras, (without any tricks) to settle this controversy about his existence once and for all. With the promise that if they end up making fools of themselves at the end of the day, like the followers of the Baal in the above narrative, and their god does not respond, their lives will be spared, thanks to our Universal Declaration of Human Rights that allows people the freedom to believe even in false and impotent gods like Yahweh and Allah.
Muslim Dissidents Denounce Islam

Of course this is a long subject and I know that this debate has been going on for centuries. But the reason it is not settling is not because there is not enough evidence to disprove God. There is plenty of evidence and I have just scratched the surface of it. The reason because people, and many of them very intelligent and brilliant people, are not willing to give up the notion of a personal god is because of their emotional ties to this imaginary creator. The religionists also present their own reasons to prove the existence of God. But all of those reasons can be easily rebutted while no one is able to answer to the proof presented against the existence of God.

By Ali Sina
Feb 2001
Faith Freedom International
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Old 02-08-2016, 01:44 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just replying to this.

I used to belong to Faithfreedom Forum prior to accepting Islam and at that time it was primarily a forum for Atheists and others who were anti all religions. I became a Muslim in 2005 at which time I was banned from Faithfreedom.

Looks like Ali Sina has toned down his Anti-Christian and Anti-Jewish views that he was more open about when He first opened Faithfreedom. seems like he is now seeking support from the Christians.
But Looking through his archives I have found some tidbits he has not yet deleted:

Just as Thomas instead of being disgusted of indecencies and lustfulness of John De Ruiter is apologetic of him and thinks this is something divine, Muslims read the perversities of Muhammad and see no problem in that.

This brainwashing is not reserved to the followers of De Ruiter and Muhammad. The followers of all religions have their stupid beliefs that they are unable to see. These people can see perfectly the errors of the believers of other religions but are incapable of seeing their own.

Shouldn’t we ask ourselves whether we are also as brainwashed as Thomas? Don’t we believe in crazy ideas with no scientific or logical backing? Why is it that we can see so clearly the follies of others and are so blind of our own? I am not just talking to Muslims but to all those who believe. Those who believe in any religion should ask themselves whether they too are Thomases of their religion.

The following article is about John de Ruiter. It gives a very good insight into the gullibility of human nature and the willingness of some to be fooled. It is an excellent read for those who may wonder why people followed Muhammad, or any other prophet for that matter, with such resignation and blissful abandonment.
Which Religion to follw: A review of John de Ruiter


<snip>


By Ali Sina
Feb 2001
Faith Freedom International
I have not read that far back to 2001.


Ali Sina is at present a Christian from about 2 years ago. So at present, it is unlikely he would be condemning the mainstream religions except Islam.
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Old 02-08-2016, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have not read that far back to 2001.


Ali Sina is at present a Christian from about 2 years ago. So at present, it is unlikely he would be condemning the mainstream religions except Islam.
That pretty much corresponds to when he began developing his very strong somewhat militant anti-Islamic stance.

For about the first 6 or 7 years of his site he was pretty much anti all religions. The site promoted Freedom from all religions.
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Old 02-08-2016, 11:29 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
I'm well aware that not all Muslims commit the evil, vile acts of radical Islamists. There are certainly a number of peaceful people that call themselves Muslims. However, I have to wonder if ISIS and the various radical Islamist groups aren't far closer to being followers of Muhammad. V By all human, moral, decent standards, Muhammad was a vile, vicious person. All the acts committed by those groups were firs t committed and sanctioned by Muhammad.
In fact, most Muslims do not commit the evil, vile acts of radical Islamists. They are the real followers of Muhammad. What is stopping you from regarding them as followers of someone else and not Muhammad?

Muhammad was a Muslim and his followers are Muslims. Your argument will be valid only if you regard peaceful Muslims as followers of Ghandi but not the followers of Muhammad. Yes?

If you think that Muhammad was a vile, vicious person, and ISIS or other Islamists are the real followers of Muhammad then I have a very bad news for you, Muhammad never lost a battle with his enemies. Perhaps that's why the Islamist terrorists cannot be defeated; they are following of a winner. Yes?

Last edited by Khalif; 02-08-2016 at 11:32 AM.. Reason: Missing a word
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Old 02-08-2016, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,567 posts, read 17,647,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In fact, most Muslims do not commit the evil, vile acts of radical Islamists. They are the real followers of Muhammad. What is stopping you from regarding them as followers of someone else and not Muhammad?

Muhammad was a Muslim and his followers are Muslims. Your argument will be valid only if you regard peaceful Muslims as followers of Ghandi but not the followers of Muhammad. Yes?

If you think that Muhammad was a vile, vicious person, and ISIS or other Islamists are the real followers of Muhammad then I have a very bad news for you, Muhammad never lost a battle with his enemies. Perhaps that's why the Islamist terrorists cannot be defeated; they are following of a winner. Yes?
Meh, ISIS and the rest of the radical Islamists are for the most part cowards, afraid of a stand-up fight with a trained and decently led military (Iraqi army btw is NEITHER, and is populated with ISIS sympathizers). They are usually defeated (or run away from) women that take up arms against them. For the most part, the only men they take on are those that have surrendered, or are unarmed and are defenseless. Not a lot of guts involved to cut the throat of someone with their arms tied behind their backs. Nor to rape unarmed women. These are the acts of cowards. As is turning on and slaughtering peaceful people who have welcomed and sheltered you a time of need. Islam is founded on savagery and treachery. Some followers have admittedly evolved (the ones that don't take a vile book too seriously). Others, that follow Muhammad more closely...become ISIS, Boko Haram, AQ, etc.

Last edited by Toyman at Jewel Lake; 02-08-2016 at 08:49 PM..
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Old 02-09-2016, 04:45 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In fact, most Muslims do not commit the evil, vile acts of radical Islamists. They are the real followers of Muhammad. What is stopping you from regarding them as followers of someone else and not Muhammad?

Muhammad was a Muslim and his followers are Muslims. Your argument will be valid only if you regard peaceful Muslims as followers of Ghandi but not the followers of Muhammad. Yes?

If you think that Muhammad was a vile, vicious person, and ISIS or other Islamists are the real followers of Muhammad then I have a very bad news for you, Muhammad never lost a battle with his enemies. Perhaps that's why the Islamist terrorists cannot be defeated; they are following of a winner. Yes?
Note the Battle of Uhud where Muhammad lost to the Meccan. Like any politician Muhammad will not admit he lost at the Battle of Uhud and give all sorts of excuses. But as implied from the Quran, he lost at the Battle of Uhud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Uhud


It is promised in the Quran by Allah that Muslims, who believe in Allah and his messenger, will always win any battle with non-Muslims. The Muslims of ISIS and other Islamists are inspired with confidence from such verses in the Quran and the examples of Muhammad who won most of his battles.
This martial background of Muhammad is one reason why SOME Muslims who view Muhammad as an examplar are inspired to emulate Muhammad in killing and doing terrible evils to non-Muslims at the slightest provocation which they deemed as a threat to Islam and Muslims.


Your logic above is not sound as you did not take human nature into account.
Here is my hypothesis;


1. DNA wise ALL humans [including Muslims] are potential beasts.
2. Re Bell Curve on human nature of evil-ness, appx. 20% of all humans [including Muslims] are prone to commit evils of various degrees.
3. Thus 20% of Muslims are evil prone.


4. More that 55% of the 6,236 verses of the Quran contain evil-laden elements of various range from 1-Low to 100-High, e.g. stealing is low while genocide is very high.


Note; 'Evil' in this case means secular evil not theological evil [re Satan, etc.]

It is the combination of 3 & 4 and the martial ethos of Muhammad [as an exemplar] that manifest all the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims from the pool of 20% evil prone Muslims.
The evidence for this is glaringly obvious from the daily news [reliable medias].


The above is the argument why only SOME evil prone Muslims [from 3] and not all Muslims commit terrible evils and violence in the name of Islam and Muhammad.
This is because 80% of any group of humans are inherent good by their nature.
It is only the potentials from the 20% of evil prone who will commit evil when they are catalyzed, influenced and inspired by some external stimulant, e.g. violent elements from movies, medias, bad parenting, culture or holy texts of a religion.


Why the problem of evil and violence is significant with Islam is because 20% of 1.5 billion produce a potential pool of 300,000,000 evil prone Muslims of various degrees. This is obvious a very threatening quantum as it only took 18++ to do a 911 and even lone wolf[s] can create terrible terrors.
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Old 02-09-2016, 01:05 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Islam is founded on savagery and treachery. Some followers have admittedly evolved (the ones that don't take a vile book too seriously). Others, that follow Muhammad more closely...become ISIS, Boko Haram, AQ, etc.
Islam is based on obeying God. Your judgment of Islam is utter ignorance about Islam.

Those who call themselves Muslims but do not take the Qur'an seriously, end up becomng savage and even kill themselves. Anyone who does not take the Qur'an seriously cannot become a Muslim.
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Old 02-09-2016, 01:42 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the Battle of Uhud where Muhammad lost to the Meccan. Like any politician Muhammad will not admit he lost at the Battle of Uhud and give all sorts of excuses. But as implied from the Quran, he lost at the Battle of Uhud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Uhud
Meccan did not win at Uhad. It is true that the Muslims had lost 70 men in the battle but by then the Meccan had also lost so much that they were just unable to keep fighting and just gave up during the battle and returned to Mecca to prepare for another attack on Muslims.

The Qur'an does not imply that Muhammad lost at the battle but that Muslims should obey the Messenger. Most of those who had been punished during the battle had disobeyed the messenger.

The Meccan had come to Madina from Mecca with intention to kill Muhammad and Muslims with him. They hadn't attacked Muhammad and Muslims with him just to retreat during the battle. They had retreated because they had failed in their aim and needed to regroup for another attack on Muslims the year after at the Trench. They never recovered from their defeat at the Trench.
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Old 02-09-2016, 10:13 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,584,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Meccan did not win at Uhad. It is true that the Muslims had lost 70 men in the battle but by then the Meccan had also lost so much that they were just unable to keep fighting and just gave up during the battle and returned to Mecca to prepare for another attack on Muslims.

The Qur'an does not imply that Muhammad lost at the battle but that Muslims should obey the Messenger. Most of those who had been punished during the battle had disobeyed the messenger.

The Meccan had come to Madina from Mecca with intention to kill Muhammad and Muslims with him. They hadn't attacked Muhammad and Muslims with him just to retreat during the battle. They had retreated because they had failed in their aim and needed to regroup for another attack on Muslims the year after at the Trench. They never recovered from their defeat at the Trench.
Note the difference between "battles" and the "war".
For examples the Allies won World War II but they lost many battles during the full period of the war.
I don't deny Muhammad won the War ultimately over the Meccans, Jews and Christians with his terrible aggressions and the supposedly "assistance" [power and invisible armies] from Allah.

However there is no denying he lost at the Battle of Uhud when some of his followers did not follow his orders properly.
Like in a game of tennis, Muhammad won the match [War] at 3-1 i.e. won 3 sets [battles] and lost 1 set [battle of Uhud].

That Muhammad won the War over the Meccans, Jews and Christians with so much aggression and evils is the basis of an established a martial ethos for Islam with Muhammad as an exemplar that inspire SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims who are influenced by the evil laden elements in the Quran to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.
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Old 02-10-2016, 01:25 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note the difference between "battles" and the "war".
For examples the Allies won World War II but they lost many battles during the full period of the war.
I don't deny Muhammad won the War ultimately over the Meccans, Jews and Christians with his terrible aggressions and the supposedly "assistance" [power and invisible armies] from Allah.

However there is no denying he lost at the Battle of Uhud when some of his followers did not follow his orders properly.
Like in a game of tennis, Muhammad won the match [War] at 3-1 i.e. won 3 sets [battles] and lost 1 set [battle of Uhud].

That Muhammad won the War over the Meccans, Jews and Christians with so much aggression and evils is the basis of an established a martial ethos for Islam with Muhammad as an exemplar that inspire SOME [not all] evil prone Muslims who are influenced by the evil laden elements in the Quran to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.

In tennis, you have games, sets, matches and the championship. Games are elements of the sets and the sets are elements of the match (battle). Muhammad lost no match, therefore, no battle was lost by Muhammad or else he would have been out. He managed to complete his mission (the championship).

It is nonsense to claim that Muhammad lost at Uhad. There were two leaders of Meccan army at Uhad. One (Khalid bib Waleed) joined Muhammad (loser in your view) soon after the battle and the other (Sufiyan) later on after the second failed attempt to beat Muhammad at the Trench. They did so because they knew that they could not beat Muhammad in any battle. There was no battle when the war against Meccan was won because the Meccan had lost all battles with Muhammad in Madina.
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