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Old 02-16-2016, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
What you do not mention here is that the other relatives and friends did believe him. Abu Bakr believed him. Hamza (uncle) believed him. His uncle Abu Talib's son believed him. Even his wife's Christian uncle had believed him. As for Abu Lahab, one of the chiefs in Mecca, he was a nasty man who rotted after his death and even his sons did not want to go near his body due to its stink. He had boasted about his wealth (as Meccan chief) and sons and had seen Muhammad as threat to his powerful status.

As for his uncle Abu Talib, he had protected Muhammad all those years before his death. He knew that Muhammad is on a true mission but his status in the eyes of Meccans prevented him from saying Shahada. On his death bed, he had confessed to Muhammad that if he says Shahada now his people will see him as coward. Without his protection, the Meccans would have killed Muhammad years before he went to Madina. Abu Talib did not stop his son Ali to accept Islam. Abu Talib was not against Muhammad, why others?
I did not imply ALL his relatives did not believe him.
If there is really a God and Muhammad can easily prove he is the messenger of God, everyone would have believe him.
The fact that some do not believe his especially his near relatives throw great doubts on Muhammad as a messenger of Allah.


As for whether Abu Talib converted, that is a controversial issue without any certainty.
Even Abu Talib converted on his death bed, that is something to do with his already frail mind where they are more inclined towards theism where the brain inhibitors are terribly destroyed and cannot support rationality.


Note this research on why many people are more inclined towards theism as they get older due to the weakening of the brain neurons.
Older People Hold Stronger Belief in God | Atheism & Most Religious Countries
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Old 02-16-2016, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We do confront the terrorists. but as we are not an organization we do so as individuals or small local groups.

We are very diverse We are all different nationalities, speak different languages and have to abide by the laws in the Nations we live in.

It probably would be easier if we were organized and had some sort of central leadership, but we don't as Islam is a personal action We do not even know who is a Muslim, we only know who openly claims to be Muslim.

We have no excommunication as we do not have an organization to kick anyone out of. A person becomes a Muslim simply by acknowledging they are Muslim. Even if I disagree with how a person performs Islam I can not say that person is no Muslim. It might be that what I consider to be Islam is not Islam. There are many Muslims that probably believe I am not Muslim. but we can never know who is a Muslim as performing Islam to the best of one's ability is known only to the individual and Allaah(swt)
Being a good Muslim yourself and an individual will not absolve Islam-in-general and collectively from the evil and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are influenced and inspired by SOME evil laden verses in the Quran [so representative of Islam].


If you are a concerned citizen of humanity and not merely a selfish individual who merely focus on your own interests, you need to view the terrible evils and violence from Islam [in part] and SOME Muslims collectively by acknowledging those very facts.


It is only by acknowledging the truths and facts of the terrible evils and violence as committed by SOME Muslims who are inspired by SOME evil laden verses from the Quran that we as good humans can began to deal with the evil of Islam [in part] together with other secular evils [btw not for this forum].
Denying and sweeping the actual causes under the carpet will only make it worse for the well being of humanity.
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Old 02-17-2016, 04:48 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Being a good Muslim yourself and an individual will not absolve Islam-in-general and collectively from the evil and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who are influenced and inspired by SOME evil laden verses in the Quran [so representative of Islam].
There are two main arguments in the above statement:

1. Islam cannot be judged by the actions of good Muslims but by the actions of bad Muslims.

2. There are some evil laden verses in the Qur'an.

The first point is a contradiction in itself.

The second point is being made again and again as if we are listening to a programmed robot, repeating the same words. There are no evil laden verses in the Qur'an or else all Muslims would be influenced by them. They all read the same Qur'an. The difference is in only understanding the Qur'an.
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Old 02-17-2016, 05:00 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If there is really a God and Muhammad can easily prove he is the messenger of God, everyone would have believe him.
You are now getting desperate to prove your point, or at least to show me that you are thinking better than I think.

How about thinking the same way:

If there was no God and Muhammad could not prove he was the messenger of God, everyone would have disbelieved him.
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Old 02-17-2016, 09:14 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,571 posts, read 17,653,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Charlie Hebdo was not telling the truth but mocking. Muhammad never had a bomb in his turban. The cartoon was showing a bomb in his turban. That's an outright lie by Charlie Hebdo but you don't ses it.
Outright lie, simple humor, free speech, sarcasm, call it what you want. None of which is an excuse to slaughter innocent people over a cartoon of a pedophile murderer.
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Old 02-17-2016, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,571 posts, read 17,653,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistermobile View Post
No Muslim following Islam is responsible for any other Islam follower's action so...
"Let the Nazis be Nazis."


Or in other words,


"We ain't helping."
Millions of Christians stood up to Nazis and utterly destroyed them when they went on a rampage and slaughtered innocent people. Yet millions of Muslims in the ME won't even stand up to a few thousand barbaric savages slaughtering people in the name of Islam under the ISIS flag.
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Old 02-17-2016, 10:52 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There are two main arguments in the above statement:
1. Islam cannot be judged by the actions of good Muslims but by the actions of bad Muslims.
The first point is a contradiction in itself.
I don't see any contradiction.
The good Islam can be judged by the actions of good Muslims.
The evil of Islam can be judged by the actions of evil prone Muslims acting upon evil laden verses in the Quran.


Quote:
2. There are some evil laden verses in the Qur'an.
The second point is being made again and again as if we are listening to a programmed robot, repeating the same words. There are no evil laden verses in the Qur'an or else all Muslims would be influenced by them. They all read the same Qur'an. The difference is in only understanding the Qur'an.
I have defined "secular evil" as acts and thoughts that are a net-negative to the well being of the individual, group and humanity.


There are lots of evil [as defined above] laden verses in the Quran.
I have not got into details discussion on this.
However I have given examples of the elements of "casting terror upon non-Muslims," 'fight non-believers wherever you find them" and the likes are by definition evil elements even when qualified with justifications. What is worse is the justifications given are ambiguous and vague.


Quote:
There are no evil laden verses in the Qur'an or else all Muslims would be influenced by them. They all read the same Qur'an.
I have argued this many times and you are blind to it.
This is the same type of blindness that you are unable to see the evil laden elements in the Quran. [see the experiment of attentive blindness video below]
There are evil laden verses in the Quran and ONLY evil prone Muslim from a pool of 20% of Muslims are vulnerable to be influenced by these evil laden verses.
What is critical here is 20% of 1.5 b Muslims is a pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims around the world.


1. The Quran permit the fighting and killing of non-Muslims and even other Muslims if there is threat to Islam.
2. The drawing of cartoons, Western education, occupation of foreigners on Islam land and the likes are deemed to be a threat or hindrance to Islam.
3. Therefore when 2 exists or happens, Muslims can fight and kill non-Muslims which is what is happening in reality at the present.


Now, WHO ARE YOU [me and others] to judge those Muslims who fight and kill non-Muslims are wrong?
"YOU" cannot insist they misunderstood the meaning of the Quran, especially in elements that are ambiguous to humans.
The final arbiter is Allah on Judgment Day.
So the evil prone Muslims will continue to 3 above, i.e. fight and kill non-Muslims to serve and please Allah to ensure their journey to Paradise with eternal life and all the sensual delights that Allah has promise as his obligation.


To avoid repetition again, I suggest you read the above seriously and show me where I am wrong.


Example of selective attention and blindness to explain why you failed to see the evil laden elements in the Quran. You need to read the Quran more than 50 times to see the whole truths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY

This is very informative knowledge and useful for one to understand more of human nature and oneself.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-17-2016 at 11:00 PM..
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Old 02-17-2016, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Millions of Christians stood up to Nazis and utterly destroyed them when they went on a rampage and slaughtered innocent people. Yet millions of Muslims in the ME won't even stand up to a few thousand barbaric savages slaughtering people in the name of Islam under the ISIS flag.
Those few thousand members acting under the flag of ISIS are better armed and supplied and have a larger budget than Iraq, Syria, Lebanon or Jordan. Plus they are nearly invisible and blending easily into the general population. Although the primary funding for ISIS has taken a pounding with Russia bombing the oil fields it probably is still over 2 million dollars per day.
ISIS is not only the world's largest terrorist organization, it is also the first one to be self sufficient with no need of outside financial help.

ISIS monthly income said to total $80 million - Middle East - Jerusalem Post



That entire region has been a shambles and virtually destroyed after the bombings of Iraq, and the civil war in Syria. Iran is virtually a prisoner as any action on their part would be seen as a hidden act of aggression against Israel.

But in spite of that those that can are fighting ISIS namely the military of Turkey, UAE, Saudi, and some of the Arab Nations.

The majority of deaths attributed to ISIS have been Muslims.

As a whole the Muslim nations are not very well armed and have very little military resources. Only Turkey,Egypt and Indonesia have any significant military power.and it is not very much in terms of military budget.

Even if ISIS has a very small military it is still quite formidable in terms of the size of the Iraq Military. As a military power Iraq ranks 112 out of 126. Iraq Military Strength
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Old 02-18-2016, 01:34 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't see any contradiction.
The good Islam can be judged by the actions of good Muslims.
The evil of Islam can be judged by the actions of evil prone Muslims acting upon evil laden verses in the Quran.
There aren't two different Islams; "good" and "evil". There is only one Islam.

There are no evil laden verses in the Qur'an. Evil prone so-called Muslims are not influenced by any imagined evil laden verses but they twist good verses to qualify their evil actions. If not then they are not trying to understand these verses within the context.
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Old 02-18-2016, 02:16 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have defined "secular evil" as acts and thoughts that are a net-negative to the well being of the individual, group and humanity.


There are lots of evil [as defined above] laden verses in the Quran.
I have not got into details discussion on this.
However I have given examples of the elements of "casting terror upon non-Muslims," 'fight non-believers wherever you find them" and the likes are by definition evil elements even when qualified with justifications. What is worse is the justifications given are ambiguous and vague.


I have argued this many times and you are blind to it.
You can define evil in whatever way you like, one thing is certain, you are unable to understand the Qur'an the same way as so-called evil prone Muslims are unable to understand some verses of the Qur'an. Both are, in Qur'anic terms, deaf, dumb and blind who will not understand (2:171).

As for "casting terror upon non-Muslims", the Qur'an does not command Muslims to cast terror upon non-Muslims. It is God who is casting terror upon the kuffaar just as He had done after the Exodus (Exodus 23:27, Deuteronomy 2:25, 11:25). Even Muslims haven't claimed that they are casting terror upon the non-Muslims. It is only the non-Muslims who are talking about them being terrified by the "Islamic terrorists". So called "Islamic terrorists" do not call themself "terrorists". This is a clear indication that their goal is not "casting terror" upon non-Muslims.

If it had been a command in the Qur'an for us to cast terror upon the non-Muslims then I would be doing it too.
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