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Old 02-22-2016, 03:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Students are generally graded even on subjective essay type subjects into objective %. Point to note is this is not THE TRUTH but merely an objective guide.
We can do the same for religious believers, e.g. Muslims, Christians, Buddhist, etc.
Who are "we" here?

I have been dealing with students for 18 years. My daughters are school teachers. They teach both students and pupils. One is even examiner. It is not the students that are marked and graded but their work. All are students and none is graded as 10% student or 90% student. Only the achievment is graded and the student rewarded entry into top university or better posts after the class of degree.

What is so hard for you to understand the same when it comes to Muslims?
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Old 02-22-2016, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,582 posts, read 17,658,875 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
This is probably what is causing the confusion as it is not what Many Muslims believe.




A Muslim by definition must comply with the Quran.

False: A Muslim must not disobey the Qur'an this significantly different from comply with. The Qur'an contains many things as an illustrative lesson and are not things we required to do.
What is needed to be complied is in the 6,236 verses in the Quran.

False--As a person can be 100% practicing Muslim without ever having seen a Qur'an.


Therefore if a Muslim complied with 100% of the 6,236 verses of the Quran, s/he is a 100% Muslim.

False--They could be a hypocrite and doing so with the wrong intention. It is possible for an enemy of Islam to comply with all 6.23 ayyats and never be a Muslim

In practice this may not be possible and not all 6,236 relate to the obligation and duty of a Muslim.


True

Thus the truer Muslim is the more who comply as many as possible of the expectations of the 6,236 verses.


False: There is no such thing as a true or false Muslim. A person is either a Muslim or is not. There are no levels, percentages, degrees etc. All Muslims are equally Muslim.
Can you elaborate on exactly what does make one a Muslim?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post

The Quran do not stop any Muslim from getting out of Islam [apostate] or cancel the covenant with Allah. However, a non-Muslim will be destined to Hell.
However if a Muslim commit an unpardonable sin, then he is automatically [in the eyes of Allah] no more a Muslim and thus destined to the worst of Hell on Judgment Day.
Muslims who commit non-unpardonable sins are still Muslims but those who commit pardonable sins will be punished accordingly to the degree of their sin.

I disagree.
Unless it is a unpardonable sin, a Muslim is still a Muslim if the sin [non-compliance] is a pardonable one or s/he repent.
Can you explain what is a non-pardonable sin in Islam? Would that include acts like rape? Murder? Taking of slaves? Waging of war on and the slaughter of innocent people?
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,291,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Can you elaborate on exactly what does make one a Muslim?



A Muslim is simply a person who performs Islam. Islam is the action of submitting to Allaah(swt)

What that entails is highly individual as it is based upon a Person's ability and knowledge. Every Human is born Muslim and will remain Muslim until the reach the age of being able to make a free will informed choice.

From then on the individuals responsibility to perform Islam increases as their knowledge and ability Increases.

Performing Islam is a life time of learning what is required of us, none will be judged upon what they do not have the ability to do or learn about.


As a person learns there will be 5 things they must do of their own free will, if they are able to do so.

1. Acknowledge there is only one God and Muhammad(saws) is his messenger

2. Establish daily prayers

3. Give to charity and provide for those that have less than you have.

4. Fast during the Month of Ramadan, if it does not endanger your health

5. Perform the Hajj (Pilgrimage to Mecca duing the Month of Hajj) if you are financially and physically .capable of doing so.

The intent and desire to do them will suffice if a person does not have the means to do such. As we age and learn more respnsibilities will be required of us. But all Muslims are equal and each has within their ability the means to achieve the highest rewards. Whether the Muslim is a new born baby or the most educated of scholars.

Perfection is not required. it is all about intent and doing our best in accordance with our abilities.
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Last edited by Woodrow LI; 02-22-2016 at 05:05 PM..
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:48 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Can you elaborate on exactly what does make one a Muslim?
One is a Muslim when obeying Allah/God.

It is something like this:

When I am doing driving, I am a Driver but still a human being.
When I am not driving, I am still a human being.

When I am doing gardening, I am a Gardener but still a human being.
When I am not doing gardening, I am still a human being.

When I am teaching, I am a Teacher but still a human being.
When I am not teaching, I am still a human being.

When I am obeying God, I am a Muslim but still a human being
When I am not obeying God, I am not a Muslim but still a human being.
When I am disobying God, I am not a Muslim but still a human being.

Can you see what makes one either a Driver, a Gardener, a Teacher or a Muslim?
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Old 02-22-2016, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The way you have interpreted these verses, has further revealed to me that you are unable to understand the Qur'an. Here is why:

1. None of these verses say that a Muslim is 10% Muslim or 90% Muslim. Even you are writing within the verses "Muslim" rather than 10% Muslim. Here in this world, one is either a Muslim in any given action or not a Muslim in any given action. You need to understand this urgently.
It is obvious the Quran did not mention % of Muslim.
But if you use your intelligence one can impute % of Muslim_ness to any Muslims on an approximate basis.
If the result is 49% Muslims versus 50% Muslims obviously this is too close to be reliable for any assessment.
If we assess someone as 10%-Muslim objectively and another 50%-Muslim or 90%-Muslim, then the difference is sufficient for some sort of assessment.


Note intelligence and wisdom is how good a person a interpret existing knowledge for better decision making and usefulness.


For example if there are say 100 rules and command in the Quran,
You comply by only 10 overall
Another Muslims comply with 95 overall.
There is nothing wrong is stating you are a 10% Muslim and the other a 95%-Muslim as long as we understand the context. This results should not be absolute by relative to the context.
These relative comparison indicate you will need to improve if you want to please Allah and get the necessary rewards as promised.



Quote:
2. None of these verses are addressed to "Muslims". All of these verses are addressed to either "believers" (momineen) or people in general. With your closed mind towards Islam and Muslims, you are imagining that these are addressed to Muslims.
It is not wrong at all to "Muslims" in contrast to infidels. I have no issue if there are need to be more precise depending on the seriousness of the contentious issue.

Quote:
3. The ranks mentioned in the verses are ranks or stations in the hereafter. These are not here but with Allah and be given to people (even you) on the judgment day. That's when one would be exalted in degree/rank/station. There are stations both in paradise and in hell. If you are given the lowest station in hell, it does not mean you were 100% kafir but your actions were 100% evil. Person is not graded but his actions both in terms of quality and quantity, and his achievement/post/station is graded. These degrees, ranks, stations are for all humam beings. You are not 10 % human beings.
Again you are ignorant of what is in the Quran in this case.
A Muslim ranking in the hereafter is dependent on what s/he sowed on Earth. Note a Muslim shall reap what is sowed on Earth. There is nothing to sow on the Day of Judgment.
Muslims are graded based on the net overall results of what they 'sowed' on Earth.
I suggest you read the Quran again and at least 50 times to get the essence of it.
Obviously Allah [all powerful] will not announced the respective grade or % as I had used, but the ultimate results can be represented by grades or % if Allah so wished to.

Quote:
4. The verse 58:11 you quoted above begins with, "O ye who believe!". You added "Muslims" in the verse. If we read it, "O ye Muslims who believe", it will become obvious to any Muslim that the verse implies that not all Muslims believe. We know that all Muslims "believe". Either your intelligence stops you understanding these verses or your mind is closed to the Qur'an so you do not understand the Qur'an.
Who else can it be other than Muslims who believe.
Anyone who believe in the in the context of the Quran and this verse is obviously a "Muslim."


Can it say;
"O ye [Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Christians, Jains, Taoist] who believe" ??


I intelligently included "Muslim" to be more precise to facilitate my reading so I don't have to pause and find out "O ye" refer to who.
In fact for the whole of the Quran and for most of the pronouns I put in the parenthesis who the pronoun refer to as it can be confusing so when I read the Quran the next time I don't have to analyze it again. This is quite a lot of work to do it for the 6,236 verses.
I admit I have made errors and indicated the wrong person or people but this in parenthesis can be corrected and edited. They are not meant to be carved in stone.
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Old 02-22-2016, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
One is Muslim when obeying Allah. One is Muslim when serving Allah. One obeys/serves Allah. Obeying/serving Allah are "actions" AFTER entering into the covenant. One believes first and then acts.

Now read carefully what you have written here. All Muslims are Muslims whether they pray 1time, 5 times, 1000 times or 50,000 times rather than 1%, 4%, 1000% or 50,000% Muslim.
You have just agreed with me inadvertently that grade/rank/station/reward will be higher or lower in the hereafter after the Judgment for your actions in this life. That will be due to your achievement. The same will apply to ALL human beings. They too will be given grade/rank/station/reward in the hereafter for their disbelieving and actions here in this life. It does not mean that they are 10% human beings or 1% human beings.

The more you post here on Islam board the more you expose yourself. I don't believe that you have low intelligence but low understanding of Muslims and Islam.
I believe you are missing things here.


As I had written a Muslim is one who has entered into a covenant with Allah and is expected to submit, surrender, believe [with seriousness] obey, worship, do one duty, etc.


I did not agree with you intentionally.
A Muslim shall reap in Paradise when a Muslims sowed on Earth.
This implication is very clearly stated in the Quran re what is sent by a Muslim towards Judgment Day.
All the deeds of the Muslims on Earth are recorded in the Sijjin and Iliyun by Allah's bookkeeper, therefore whatever is recorded will reflect one's rank, degrees and grades which can be improved or worsen over time till the final DAY.


As far as non-Muslims are concerned they are destined to Hell and the Quran did not mention much about grading non-Muslims.


Generally, DNA wise all humans are human being.
However from certain perspective which must be qualified clearly we can rate various human by % for argument sake. [in practice we may not do it].
If a human has no legs, then physically that person is not 100% human in terms of physical contents. There are various way to measure a human by % if we want to?
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Old 02-22-2016, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Who are "we" here?

I have been dealing with students for 18 years. My daughters are school teachers. They teach both students and pupils. One is even examiner. It is not the students that are marked and graded but their work. All are students and none is graded as 10% student or 90% student. Only the achievment is graded and the student rewarded entry into top university or better posts after the class of degree.

What is so hard for you to understand the same when it comes to Muslims?
"we" in this case refer to humans in general. It can be anyone who in interested in doing the measurement.


I have never heard of any school that grade their students as 10% student or 90% student.

However if we used our intelligent there is nothing wrong objectively in converting the average result of a student within a year or period in terms as a 10% student or 90% student as long as we know what we are talking about and not taking the proposition as absolute.


For example;
Let say both our sons studied in the same school.
For 2015 they took exams in 10 papers.
Your son scored 95%, i.e. total 950/1000 marks
My son scored 30% i.e. total 300/1000 marks for the 10 papers.


Is there any thing wrong objectively if I refer to your son as a 95% student for 2015 and my son as a 30% student.
Since my son is a 30%-student for 2015, it would appear he has to take tuition, pay more attention in class, study more consistently, etc. to improve his % is 2016.


Surely you can agree with the above in the context of our sons being in the same school and taking the same examinations, or
Are you saying I am stupid in using the 30%-Student or 90%-Student grading?


The same principles apply to a 10%-Muslim, 50%-Muslim or 90%-Muslim. What is critical is we must understand the basis how this grading came about.
I mentioned this is based on a Muslim's compliance to the elements of all the 6,236 verses in the Quran.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-23-2016 at 12:07 AM..
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Old 02-23-2016, 12:13 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Can you explain what is a non-pardonable sin in Islam? Would that include acts like rape? Murder? Taking of slaves? Waging of war on and the slaughter of innocent people?
A unpardonable [unforgivable] sin is the most serious sin a Muslim can commit.

One such a sin is when a Muslim assign partners, idols, sons or associates to Allah and treat them as equal to Allah.
4:48. Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner [gods, idols. deities] should be ascribed unto Him.
He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will.
Whoso [infidels] ascribeth partners to Allah, he [infidel] hath indeed invented a tremendous sin [ithman].

Rape? Murder? Taking of slaves? Waging of war on and the slaughter of innocent people?
These acts are permitted in the Quran under certain conditions where Islam or Muslims are threatened. The problem is these conditions are ambiguous and vague which open up permission for Muslims who are evil prone to commit these with the sanction of Allah.


Even if for some reason, they [except unjustified killing] are sinful for various reasons, they are not unpardonable sins if the guilty Muslims repent while on Earth.


Last edited by Continuum; 02-23-2016 at 12:21 AM..
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Old 02-23-2016, 01:13 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is obvious the Quran did not mention % of Muslim.
Yes, the Qur'an did not mention it; you just made it up through your poor understanding of both the Qur'an and Muslims.

Quote:
But if you use your intelligence one can impute % of Muslim_ness to any Muslims on an approximate basis.
This is nothing but ignorannceness about Muslims and Islam.


Quote:
Note intelligence and wisdom is how good a person a interpret existing knowledge for better decision making and usefulness.
Agreed. Now use the existing knowledge and don't make up "Muslimness" in ignorannce.


Quote:
For example if there are say 100 rules and command in the Quran,
You comply by only 10 overall
Another Muslims comply with 95 overall.
There is nothing wrong is stating you are a 10% Muslim and the other a 95%-Muslim as long as we understand the context. This results should not be absolute by relative to the context.
These relative comparison indicate you will need to improve if you want to please Allah and get the necessary rewards as promised.
No wonder you are getting it wrong even when I am pointing out the error of you way!
If I do not comply with any command, am I still a Muslim? No. With your ignorance, I am 0% Muslim.
With my intelligence, if I do not obey any command, I am not a Muslim. If you do not obey any command, are you 0% Muslim or not a Muslim?
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Old 02-23-2016, 01:29 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Yes, the Qur'an did not mention it; you just made it up through your poor understanding of both the Qur'an and Muslims.

This is nothing but ignorannceness about Muslims and Islam.


Agreed. Now use the existing knowledge and don't make up "Muslimness" in ignorannce.


No wonder you are getting it wrong even when I am pointing out the error of you way!
If I do not comply with any command, am I still a Muslim? No. With your ignorance, I am 0% Muslim.
With my intelligence, if I do not obey any command, I am not a Muslim. If you do not obey any command, are you 0% Muslim or not a Muslim?
It is very unfortunate you are getting it wrong and what is worse for you is you are a Muslim.


You are a Muslim once you have entered [explicitly or implicitly] into a covenant with Allah.
(The only exception is when you commit an unforgivable sin.)
Then you have to submit, believe, obey, do your duty as a Muslim, worship, etc.


Now if you do not obey Allah's command by drinking one small glass of alcohol, does that mean you are no more a Muslim forever??
It is the same if you commit very low degree sins one time, e.g. gambling, eating a piece of pork, befriending [ولي , plural Awliyā أولياء] non Muslims, etc. In such a case, you are no longer a Muslim?
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