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Old 02-13-2016, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Read this verse with the next verse, find all the translations for the word in the verse 39 from which "wronged" is translated and you will find that the "wronged" is a very mild and general word. In the context, permission was given to Muslims in Madina to fight (back) when they were being attacked by Meccans after they had been "wronged" for 14 years just because of their religion. "Wronged" here means persecuted, many killed, expelled from their homes in Mecca, their properties taken away from them, and then attacked after following them to Madina. If Asad sends his soldiers to Europe to kill all Syrian refugees, should they not fight back?

That is when the permission was given to them to fight back. War was waged on them and they were required now to fight back. The Qur'an is clear, if the non-muslims live in peace with Muslims then Muslims too must live in peace with them.

There is only one truth in this verse, fight back if attacked in that specific case, and don't let them kill you without fighting back.

Reading the Qur'an and studying the Qur'an are not the same thing. Context of the verses, situation at the time of revelation of any verse, and all other related verses in the Qur'an must be taken into account when studying the Qur'an.
Note I have merely given one example re "wronged."
There are many of similar concepts all over the Quran.


The historical context is NOT CRITICAL in this case.
What is critical is the general rule in the Quran and the words of Allah which is Muslims can fight and kill non-Muslim if Islam or Muslims are "wronged" or under threat via any negative behaviors of the non-Muslims, i.e. wronged, mischief, corruptions, persecution, hindrances, etc.


If you rely on historical context, what source are you relying on. The Sira?
The Sira is disputed by many and more controversial than the Ahadith.
Do you think Allah will refer to the Sira on Judgment Day?


Verse 2:40 merely give some examples of what is meant by "wronged."
This has to be cross-referenced to other verses which contained the term "wronged" plus "corruption" "mischief" and other negative behaviors of non-Muslim which is seen as a threat to Islam and/or Muslims.


Wronged, mischief could imply hindering the progress of Islam and practices by Muslims, persecutions and suppression of Muslims, non-Muslims in Islam land, etc.


The point is these negative behaviors has degrees from very mild to very extreme.
The problem is what is mild to one person could be extreme to another, this is very natural.


It is also very natural that appx. 20% of humans are extra sensitive and evil prone which mean a pool of 300 million [20% x1.5b ]potential sensitive/evil prone Muslims.


These 300 million sensitive/evil prone Muslims are not likely to rationalize before acting but act spontaneously as what the Quran implied.


The root causes of the terrible evils and violence emerging from Islam is due to some of these 300 million evil and sensitive Muslims being influenced by the ambiguous evil laden verses in the Quran.
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Old 02-13-2016, 10:26 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The same as the crusaders wanted to achieve.

Just as killing innocent people is not jihad according to Islam, attacking Iraq was not crusade according to Christianity.
The point is that the idol scriptures that the Muslims venerate as their access to holiness and guide to heavily politics clearly state that no polytheist is innocent (same as the Pauline doctrine of original sin was at many points used largely to state that no one is innocent until they at least accept a phrase and vague idea: Jesus christ as God and their [ONLY] savor). The same "not innocent" blood-lusting Abrahamic idea applies to the hate for "heretics" who "make our religion what we do not think they should attempt to make it."
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Old 02-13-2016, 11:56 PM
 
4,413 posts, read 1,640,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The fact is All humans are embedded in the DNA with a subliminal* existential dilemma or crisis which generate a very strong primal psychological force. * you need to understand what is meant by 'subliminal.'
The majority of humans resolve this subliminal crisis by submitting or surrendering to a greater power and thus to theism and the likes.
Once theism is able to resolves this terrible crisis, believers will cling to it like there is no tomorrow to the extreme of killing without a blink to defend his belief.


What happened with the Crusaders was because they [the zealous and evil prones] felt their religion was threatened, so it order to defend their religion/beliefs they went out to eliminate the threat of whatever degree.
However, Jesus in the NT did not condone war nor attacking their enemies, but rather Jesus exhorted believers to love their enemies as an overriding pacifist maxim.
Without any backing from the NT, the crusaders could not control their very strong psychological impulse to defend their belief and they went on their own natural evil impulses.
The crusaders may have cherry picked some verses in the NT, but whatever verses that has a certain degree of evil is abrogated by the overriding pacifist maxim.


This is the same with SOME Buddhists who claimed they fight and kill others because they felt Buddhism was threatened. But Buddhism-proper do not have any verses [direct or indirect] that condoned killing others.


The issue with SOME Christians [crusaders] and SOME Buddhists was the problem of lack of impulse controls. Note this 'lack of impulse control' is heavily researched in the psychological and neuroscience community.




ON THE OTHER HAND, the problem with Islam is, it has elements in the Quran itself that are ambiguous that SOME evil prone Muslims are influenced and inspired to kill non-Muslims or other Muslims if Islam and/or Muslims are threatened.
For those who believe in the Ahadith, its influence on these evil prone to commit terrible evils is more worse as the Ahadith contain much evils and violent elements.
These evil prone Muslims also has lack of impulse controls just like those Crusaders and some evil prone Buddhists, but the difference is the evil prone Muslims can fall back on the sanctions and verses in the Quran from Allah to commit terrible evils and violence.
But did you notice that just being a Muslim does not guarantee the follower with a "no question asked seat in heaven" - The concept in Islam is that you will face God's judgement of your actions of purposely hurting others - whether you are a Muslim or not, doesn't matter.

Being a Muslim, can you go to hell, ? In Islam, it's definitely a possibility.

Just by growing a long beard and loudly shouting "Allah Akbar" and kill innocent people, and claim to be a representer of Islam, doesn't really help escape God's judgement.

Can you go heaven while being NOT a Muslim? It's definitely a possibility in Islam. (Quran 2:62 already talks about it)

So that very point gives a lot of hope to the MAJORITY of us Muslims who reject and condemn the ideology of "SOME" supposedly self proclaimed Muslims and self proclaimed representers of Islam like Bashir, or Boko Haram or ISIS and whatnot, that these SOME Muslims will also face the judgement of God - and Truth will be separated from the lies.

Facing consequences of your actions to purposely hurt others is inevitable in Islam - whether you are Muslim or not, doesn't really mater.
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Old 02-14-2016, 12:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
ON THE OTHER HAND, the problem with Islam is, it has elements in the Quran itself that are ambiguous that SOME evil prone Muslims are influenced and inspired to kill non-Muslims or other Muslims if Islam and/or Muslims are threatened.
For those who believe in the Ahadith, its influence on these evil prone to commit terrible evils is more worse as the Ahadith contain much evils and violent elements.
These evil prone Muslims also has lack of impulse controls just like those Crusaders and some evil prone Buddhists, but the difference is the evil prone Muslims can fall back on the sanctions and verses in the Quran from Allah to commit terrible evils and violence.
The poblem is not with Islam but with some so called Muslims who take some verses completely out of their context, and give them their own wrong meanings. People like yourself do the same and blame Islam for the problem they create due to their own lack of understaning of the verses. There are no ambiguous verses in the Qur'an if the whole Qur'an is understood properly. It is not the Qur'an's or Islam's fault if you misunderstand any verse of the Qur'an.

The "evil prone Muslims" who misuse verses of the Qur'an by taking them out of their context are just as guilty of evil as those who blame the Qur'an and Islam due to the same mentality of not understanding the Qur'an. Fortunately, a vast majority of Muslims do not misuse the Qur'an the same evil way or blame the Qur'an and Islam for the evil from the minority.
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Old 02-14-2016, 01:08 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
The point is that the idol scriptures that the Muslims venerate as their access to holiness and guide to heavily politics clearly state that no polytheist is innocent (same as the Pauline doctrine of original sin ...
No. That is not true. According to "the idol scriptures that the Muslims venerate", not all polytheists should be killed but only those who wage war on Muslims, start killing Muslims, expell them from their homes on simple fact that they are Muslims. Those who do not attack Muslims and wish to live in peace with Muslims must not be killed by Muslims. The instruction in the Qur'an is clear, "if they live in peace with you, you live in peace with them". You and every evil prone person needs to understand this fact about the Qur'an.
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Old 02-14-2016, 01:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I have merely given one example re "wronged."
There are many of similar concepts all over the Quran.


The historical context is NOT CRITICAL in this case.
What is critical is the general rule in the Quran and the words of Allah which is Muslims can fight and kill non-Muslim if Islam or Muslims are "wronged" or under threat via any negative behaviors of the non-Muslims, i.e. wronged, mischief, corruptions, persecution, hindrances, etc.


If you rely on historical context, what source are you relying on. The Sira?
The Sira is disputed by many and more controversial than the Ahadith.
Do you think Allah will refer to the Sira on Judgment Day?


Verse 2:40 merely give some examples of what is meant by "wronged."
This has to be cross-referenced to other verses which contained the term "wronged" plus "corruption" "mischief" and other negative behaviors of non-Muslim which is seen as a threat to Islam and/or Muslims.


Wronged, mischief could imply hindering the progress of Islam and practices by Muslims, persecutions and suppression of Muslims, non-Muslims in Islam land, etc.


The point is these negative behaviors has degrees from very mild to very extreme.
The problem is what is mild to one person could be extreme to another, this is very natural.


It is also very natural that appx. 20% of humans are extra sensitive and evil prone which mean a pool of 300 million [20% x1.5b ]potential sensitive/evil prone Muslims.


These 300 million sensitive/evil prone Muslims are not likely to rationalize before acting but act spontaneously as what the Quran implied.


The root causes of the terrible evils and violence emerging from Islam is due to some of these 300 million evil and sensitive Muslims being influenced by the ambiguous evil laden verses in the Quran.
The verse 2:40 says nothing aa you describe.
According to your calculation based on unislamic source, 1200 million Muslims who read the same Qur'an are not evil prone. Why are you then blaming the Qur'an for its influence?
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Old 02-14-2016, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,516 posts, read 17,630,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Muhammad did not commit any crime such as killing innocent people or supporting those who killed innocent people. His mission lasted 23 years and Allaah had supported him all the way. The rest is just false accusation against that man.
Muhammad and the butchers that followed him did exactly those things. Slaughtering innocent people, raping women who's husbands and fathers they had first slaughtered, making slaves out of their victims, etc.
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Old 02-14-2016, 02:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Muhammad and the butchers that followed him did exactly those things. Slaughtering innocent people, raping women who's husbands and fathers they had first slaughtered, making slaves out of their victims, etc.
No; he did not! He raped no woman.
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Old 02-14-2016, 02:34 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
But did you notice that just being a Muslim does not guarantee the follower with a "no question asked seat in heaven" - The concept in Islam is that you will face God's judgement of your actions of purposely hurting others - whether you are a Muslim or not, doesn't matter.

Being a Muslim, can you go to hell, ? In Islam, it's definitely a possibility.

Just by growing a long beard and loudly shouting "Allah Akbar" and kill innocent people, and claim to be a representer of Islam, doesn't really help escape God's judgement.

Can you go heaven while being NOT a Muslim? It's definitely a possibility in Islam. (Quran 2:62 already talks about it)

So that very point gives a lot of hope to the MAJORITY of us Muslims who reject and condemn the ideology of "SOME" supposedly self proclaimed Muslims and self proclaimed representers of Islam like Bashir, or Boko Haram or ISIS and whatnot, that these SOME Muslims will also face the judgement of God - and Truth will be separated from the lies.

Facing consequences of your actions to purposely hurt others is inevitable in Islam - whether you are Muslim or not, doesn't really mater.
Very good points!

Further, does anyone understand that one cannot be a Muslim unless one meets the requirements of being a Muslim?

Just calling yourself a Muslim but not obeying the commands makes one Hypocrite and not a Muslim.
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Old 02-14-2016, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
But did you notice that just being a Muslim does not guarantee the follower with a "no question asked seat in heaven" - The concept in Islam is that you will face God's judgement of your actions of purposely hurting others - whether you are a Muslim or not, doesn't matter.
You got it wrong here.
As long as one is a Muslim and do commit any unpardonable sins, then a Muslim will definitely go toward heaven.
Note I say go towards and not directly to heaven.
Those Muslims who commit sins as recorded in the Sijjin will be punished accordingly in a temporary 'hell' or be sent to tarry where one day in the hereafter is 50,000 earth years. Therefore if one is punished by Allah for merely one day, s/he would be waiting for 50,000 earth years before seeing the gate of paradise.


Purposely hurting others??
No true Muslims would dare to go against the words of Allah in the Quran if they are pious. The pious Muslims will fear Allah and be sent to Hell if they do not obey Allah


You will note from the whole life of many of the jihadists, they read the Quran day and night, are pious with Islam and get ready to fight the kuffar who they think are a threat to Islam.


Therefore whatever a pious Muslim did [seen by others as good or evil] is deemed to be based on the sanction of Allah in accordance to the Quran.


When SOME evil prone Muslims kill non-Muslims and even other Muslims they sincerely believe they are following the words of Allah from the Quran.
The problem is WHO ARE YOU [me and others] to tell them they are wrong?


The final say is from Allah on Judgment Day on whether Muslims obey Allah's words in the Quran [no where else] or not.



Quote:
Being a Muslim, can you go to hell, ? In Islam, it's definitely a possibility.

Just by growing a long beard and loudly shouting "Allah Akbar" and kill innocent people, and claim to be a representer of Islam, doesn't really help escape God's judgement.
As I mentioned above, except for any unpardonable sins, Muslims will enter a transitional place in the hereafter which is cool in contrast to the hot area for infidels.


It is not the question of growing a long beard or shouting "Allahu Akbar" but whether what they did is in compliance with the words of Allah in the Quran.
Those who kill non-Muslims and other Muslims [hypocrites or apostates] are doing it sincerely and piously in the believe they have the sanction of Allah do kill upon threats, hindrances and other negative acts toward Islam and Muslims.
WHO ARE YOU [me or others] to judge they are wrong!!



Quote:
Can you go heaven while being NOT a Muslim? It's definitely a possibility in Islam. (Quran 2:62 already talks about it)
Nah, in 2:62 those Jews, Christians and Sabeans then [not now] were regarded who received the pure message from Allah, i.e.
2:62 [part] ... whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right surely their reward is with their Lord ..
But other Jews, Christians and Sabeans who had subsequently changed and corrupted the message of Allah orally or in texts were regarded as disbelievers, note a few verses away,
2:65. And ye know of those of you [the Jews] who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them [the Jews]: Be ye apes, despised and hated!
Quote:
So that very point gives a lot of hope to the MAJORITY of us Muslims who reject and condemn the ideology of "SOME" supposedly self proclaimed Muslims and self proclaimed representers of Islam like Bashir, or Boko Haram or ISIS and whatnot, that these SOME Muslims will also face the judgement of God - and Truth will be separated from the lies.
On the contrary.
The Quran promised those who strive for the cause of Allah with their wealth and lives plus obey Allah's words fully as in the Quran are highly favored. This is what Bashir, ISIS and other jihadists are doing, i.e. to get greater assurance they will get to paradise expeditiously as promised by Allah in the Quran. These are the people who try to comply 95%++ with the Quran.
Therefore if you merely comply say 60%, then your passage to Paradise may not be direct and smooth.

Quote:
Facing consequences of your actions to purposely hurt others is inevitable in Islam - whether you are Muslim or not, doesn't really mater.
I don't believe the Jihadists purposely and unilaterally commit those evils on their own. As I aware from their many quotations from the Quran, the sincerely believe they are following the words of Allah in the Quran.
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