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Old 02-14-2016, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The verse 2:40 says nothing aa you describe.
According to your calculation based on unislamic source, 1200 million Muslims who read the same Qur'an are not evil prone. Why are you then blaming the Qur'an for its influence?
Actually it should be 22:40. [missed out a '2'].


Note when 80% of people who are exposed to violent materials in movies, books, magazines, computer games and other medias they are not influenced by the evils and violence therein.
But we still blame the violent elements in these sources by banning, censoring, or imposed warnings to readers?
That is because these evil materials in those sources will influence and inspire the vulnerable 20% evil prone to commit evil and violence.


The 1,200 million [80%] Muslims are not evil prone due to their reading of the Quran. These 80% are naturally good because of they are born with good human nature and because they have sufficient impulse control to inhibit the inherent evil impulses. Thus they will be indifferent or overlook the evil elements in the Quran.


I am blaming the Quran [in part not wholly] because the Quran [in part] contain evil laden elements that influence and inspire naturally born Muslims who are evil prone.
There are evil laden elements in the Quran but they don't have any effect on those 80% of Muslims [1.2 billion] who are born good, i.e. with good controls over their inherent evil impulses.


War, fighting and killing [even with justifications] are fundamentally immoral and should be avoided at all costs. We have to tolerate with such immorality at present because humanity is not matured to avoid it at present [possible in the future], but these acts are fundamentally immoral.


This is why elements of War, fighting and killing should never be included in any religion's holy texts because they [rightly or wrongly] can influenced the 20% vulnerable believers to commit terrible evils and violence in the name of the religion and God.
There are lots of such elements of War, fighting and killing of non-believers in the Quran and many verses are ambiguously presented as if Allah give believers permission to commit them.


In contrast in Buddhism*, there are no elements of War, fighting and killing in the Buddhist sutras [if any they are rare as needle in the haystack and do not lead Buddhists to go to war at all].
*btw, I am not a Buddhist per-se but merely making an objective comparison.
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Old 02-15-2016, 01:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The 1,200 million [80%] Muslims are not evil prone due to their reading of the Quran. These 80% are naturally good because of they are born with good human nature and because they have sufficient impulse control to inhibit the inherent evil impulses. Thus they will be indifferent or overlook the evil elements in the Quran.
ALL human beings are born weak (not perfect or not evil prone). All human beings, therefore, have both good and evil qualities/traits. Islam tells them to do good and forbid evil. A Muslim must do good and forbid evil. If he does evil, and goes against the teachings of the Qur'an (do good and forbid evil) then he is just a human being but not a Muslim.

As for being influenced by the Qur'an because they see only evil material in the Qur'an, you are wrong. The current evil terrorism increased manlfold only in the last 60 to 70 years when these people were exposed to evil in the world (the Qur'an has been here for far longer than that). The Qur'an instructs us to do good and forbid evil. That is why your 80% of Muslims are lnfluenced by those teachings and not by the evil of crusades being waged against them.
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Old 02-15-2016, 02:16 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
ALL human beings are born weak (not perfect or not evil prone). All human beings, therefore, have both good and evil qualities/traits. Islam tells them to do good and forbid evil. A Muslim must do good and forbid evil. If he does evil, and goes against the teachings of the Qur'an (do good and forbid evil) then he is just a human being but not a Muslim.

As for being influenced by the Qur'an because they see only evil material in the Qur'an, you are wrong. The current evil terrorism increased manlfold only in the last 60 to 70 years when these people were exposed to evil in the world (the Qur'an has been here for far longer than that). The Qur'an instructs us to do good and forbid evil. That is why your 80% of Muslims are lnfluenced by those teachings and not by the evil of crusades being waged against them.
One's man meat is another's poison.
Therefore what is 'good' to Islam may not be necessary 'good' as a universal human moral value.


A Muslim is an adherent of Islam.
Islam is represented by the Quran only and nothing else.
Therefore a good Muslim is one the comply 100% [if not to the nearest] with the Quran.


To Muslims the Quran is 100% good.
But, from humanity's perspective, the fact is the Quran contains both good and evil elements.
Therefore the best of the good Muslims who comply with the Quran will inevitably adopt some evil elements from humanity perspective.


To a Muslims 'casting of terror on non-Muslims if there are threats' is deem to be good because it is Allah' words. 3:151
But from the universal human moral value, casting of terror is not good but evil.


Btw, the terrible evils, violence and terror has been committed by Muslims on non-Muslims all around the world since Islam emerge in the 7th century.


Islam has this ethos of arrogance [false] that Islam is the most superior and thus all non-Muslims must be inferior to Muslims and thus need to be subjugated. Such an attitude is evil.
When non-Muslims retaliated in such an oppressed situations they are killed [by the 20% evil prone Muslims] because this is deemed as a threat and hindrance to the progress of Islam. Such violence is justified in the Quran.
The above are all supported by verses from the Quran.


Btw, it is very unbalanced [bias] if you merely view Islam from your own or your sect's narrow perspective.
What you need to be objective is to view Islam objectively as a whole as believed by 100% Muslims [since all Muslims are reading from the same Quran], i.e. including the 20% of evil prone Muslims and their impact on the whole of humanity.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-15-2016 at 02:26 AM..
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Old 02-15-2016, 09:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To a Muslims 'casting of terror on non-Muslims if there are threats' is deem to be good because it is Allah' words. 3:151
But from the universal human moral value, casting of terror is not good but evil.
Taking your point here, casting of terror /fear is evil but threat is good. Yes?

Fact of the matter about 3:151 is that it is nothing about threat or terror from Muslims. It is about terror from God for not believing God. The threat of terror from God is deterrent just as nuclear arms are deterrent.
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Old 02-15-2016, 10:08 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Btw, the terrible evils, violence and terror has been committed by Muslims on non-Muslims all around the world since Islam emerge in the 7th century.
Why do you keep talking nonsense like a well programmed robot?

There has been a lot more violence, terrible evil, and terror on non-muslims before Muhammad (read the OldTestament) and a lot more bloodshed of non- muslims by the non-muslims during the WWI and WWII. Just two evil acts by non-muslims on non-muslims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki beat the lot. These wars were not waged by Muslims but the evil non-muslims.
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Old 02-15-2016, 10:38 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Islam has this ethos of arrogance [false] that Islam is the most superior and thus all non-Muslims must be inferior to Muslims and thus need to be subjugated. Such an attitude is evil.
What a waste of you studying the Qur'an!
Islam simply means "submission" to the will of God. It means obeying the commands from God. What is arrogant element in "submission"? Muhammad had made it clear on the farewell hajj that an Arab is not better than a non-Arab and a non-Arab is not better than an Arab. He had made it clear that we will be judged by our conduct. He had forbidden us to do evil acts and exhorted us to do good to others. This is Islam as well documented in the Qur'an to this day. You are missing the forest looking for a tree. There should be no subjugation of non-muslims anywhere unless they attack Muslims first. Then they can carry on with their evil crusades against Muslims pretending to eliminate terror. Crusades create more evil than eliminate terror. Crusading attitude is evil. WMDs are evil. They were created by non-muslims to kill human beings.
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Old 02-15-2016, 05:04 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am blaming the Quran [in part not wholly] because the Quran [in part] contain evil laden elements that influence and inspire naturally born Muslims who are evil prone.
There are evil laden elements in the Quran but they don't have any effect on those 80% of Muslims [1.2 billion] who are born good, i.e. with good controls over their inherent evil impulses.
I would be stupid to blame the Qur'an for the actions of some so-Muslims who misused the Qur'an by ripping it in parts and misunderstand each part. There are no evil laden elements in the Qur'an when understood properly and not misused. 80% of Muslims who are good are good because the Qur'an guides them to be good and forbid evil.

You either have double standard in your blame game when blaming the Qur'an for evil acts or you do not understand the Qur'an at all. You blame the Qur'an but not evil prone people when it comes to evil acts of people but don't praise the Qur'an when the other 80% Muslims, also evil prone to you, do not do evil acts after being influenced by the same Qur'an. If those 80% of Muslims are good because of influence of the Qur'an then there are no evil elements in the Qur'an.

If it is about the control of inherent impulses for the evil or good then the Qur'an can't be blamed for uncontrolled evil impulses of man. The Qur'an clearly tells ALL to control their inherent impulses (their Self/Nafs). Therefore, you can blame only evil prone person who does not control his impulse (Self/Nafs).
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Old 02-15-2016, 10:12 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Taking your point here, casting of terror/fear is evil but threat is good. Yes?
You missed my point.
I implied the casting of terror if there is a threat to Islam is taken to be good for Islam and Muslim. [it is not good from universal human values].
It is good because SOME Muslims are protecting Islam by using 'casting terror' as a strategy to keep non-Muslims in fear and terror.

Quote:
Fact of the matter about 3:151 is that it is nothing about threat or terror from Muslims. It is about terror from God for not believing God. The threat of terror from God is deterrent just as nuclear arms are deterrent.
A "threat of terror" is fundamentally evil and immoral.
Thus a threat of terror by nuclear arms is fundamentally evil but tolerated at present as humanity has no other choice.
This is why there is a move for nuclear disarmament towards greater security for peace.
I am confident when the average moral competency of humanity is higher in the future, there will be no more threat of terror from WMDs and wars.


But the casting of terror on non-Muslims as an example will be eternal and will not change in the eternal message of the Quran. The Quran is rigid and cannot change with time.


Therefore for an all-powerful god to cast terror on innocent people for merely disbelieving [many are good and peaceful people] is real a shame.
When a god is supposed to be all-powerful he could have used more compassionate and intelligence means to achieve his purposes.
This proof that the Allah is not a real all powerful God but the Quran was authored by Muhammad or a group of men.


When God used the casting of terror as a strategy to win and assist Muslims in war it also influence the Muslims to do the same. Allah did not say Muslims cannot cast terror on non-Muslims. In addition, Allah give the Muslims the attitude to subjugate and dominate non-Muslims which is also immoral and evil.
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Old 02-15-2016, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Why do you keep talking nonsense like a well programmed robot?
This is a personal attack which may warrant a warning from the moderator.
I note you are getting irritated and not being objective. I suggest you keep such feelings to yourself and concentrate on the discussion and offer your counter points instead of making stinging/ugly remarks to me. I could do the same, but I won't.

Quote:
There has been a lot more violence, terrible evil, and terror on non-muslims before Muhammad (read the OldTestament) and a lot more bloodshed of non- muslims by the non-muslims during the WWI and WWII. Just two evil acts by non-muslims on non-muslims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki beat the lot. These wars were not waged by Muslims but the evil non-muslims.
This is the typical fallacy and going off point/topic in this Islam forum.


I know there are evils by non-Muslims but this do not absolve or we should ignore evil from SOME Muslims. Thus a comparison of evil by non-Muslims and Muslims make no sense in this discussion.


As I stated my project deals with All Evil by humans on Earth.
Thus I would deal with evils by non-Muslim elsewhere.
So evils by non-Muslims is off topic in this forum.


For Christianity, the New Testament override Old Testament, thus there lesser evil elements and ultimately they are overridden by the pacifist maxim of Jesus in the NT.
In any case they are off topic in this Specific Islam forum.
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Old 02-15-2016, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
What a waste of you studying the Qur'an!
Islam simply means "submission" to the will of God. It means obeying the commands from God. What is arrogant element in "submission"? Muhammad had made it clear on the farewell hajj that an Arab is not better than a non-Arab and a non-Arab is not better than an Arab. He had made it clear that we will be judged by our conduct. He had forbidden us to do evil acts and exhorted us to do good to others. This is Islam as well documented in the Qur'an to this day. You are missing the forest looking for a tree. There should be no subjugation of non-muslims anywhere unless they attack Muslims first. Then they can carry on with their evil crusades against Muslims pretending to eliminate terror. Crusades create more evil than eliminate terror. Crusading attitude is evil. WMDs are evil. They were created by non-muslims to kill human beings.
I don't think you need to comment on why I spent time researching the Quran.


I did not imply "submission" means arrogance.


But note 9:33 in [] = mine

9:33. He [Allah] it is who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion [wadeeni] of Truth, that He may cause it [Islam] to prevail over all religion [alddeeni], however much the idolaters [infidels] may be averse.
All over the Quran, the Muslims is given the impression the Muslims are superior over non-Muslims and that they must be subjugated and dominated [pay tax and kow-tow to Muslims].
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