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Old 02-15-2016, 10:44 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I would be stupid to blame the Qur'an for the actions of some so-Muslims who misused the Qur'an by ripping it in parts and misunderstand each part. There are no evil laden elements in the Qur'an when understood properly and not misused. 80% of Muslims who are good are good because the Qur'an guides them to be good and forbid evil.

You either have double standard in your blame game when blaming the Qur'an for evil acts or you do not understand the Qur'an at all. You blame the Qur'an but not evil prone people when it comes to evil acts of people but don't praise the Qur'an when the other 80% Muslims, also evil prone to you, do not do evil acts after being influenced by the same Qur'an. If those 80% of Muslims are good because of influence of the Qur'an then there are no evil elements in the Qur'an.

If it is about the control of inherent impulses for the evil or good then the Qur'an can't be blamed for uncontrolled evil impulses of man. The Qur'an clearly tells ALL to control their inherent impulses (their Self/Nafs). Therefore, you can blame only evil prone person who does not control his impulse (Self/Nafs).
As a Muslim who must rely on faith, I know you and other believers must be bias no matter what and will never see any thing negative in the Quran.


I have researched the Quran thoroughly and deeply.
My analysis indicated more than 55% of the 6,236 verses contain at least some low degree of evil elements.


Note I have defined secular evil in another post as any acts or thoughts that has a potential net negative to the well being of the individual, group and humanity. [you need to understand this definition clearly].
Any terms in the Quran that satisfy this definition is an evil laden element.
For example Allah casting terror [an evil acts] onto non-Muslims that result in terrible destructions and death on them is definitely an evil element by my definition.


Btw, are you familiar with the primal "us versus them" impulse. When taken in the negative perspective it is an evil element to humanity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_and_Them
The Quran employ this "us versus them" strategy to control Muslims, i.e. Us=Good, them=Evil.


There are many other evil elements in the Quran.


When the natural 20% of evil prone Muslims are exposed to these evil elements in the Quran, many of them will be influenced and inspired to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslim in the name of the religion with the hope they will be assured of going to Paradise with eternal life.

These are the critical objective facts you cannot deny.


Quote:
If those 80% of Muslims are good because of influence of the Qur'an then there are no evil elements in the Qur'an.
This is a very bad argument.
If 80% of Germans [Nazi members] are good during Hitler's time, does that mean there are no evil elements in the Main Kempf?
It is a fact 80% of Germans were good because only a small % of Germans [less than 1,000] are punished by their War Crimes in WW II.


The same logic and principle applies to the Quran.




Btw, there are more elements of hatred for the Jews in the Quran than in the Main Kempf.
https://www.politicalislam.com/the-g...ocaust-denial/


Quote:
When Mohammed arrived in Medina, which was half Jewish, the Jews informed him that he was not a prophet of theirs. The Koran changed its attitude, and Jews became the object of hatred.
Indeed, as a measurement of that hatred, 10.6% of the Koran written in Medina is about Jew hatred. Using the concept of the German Holocaust as the reference, it should be noted that 6.8% of Mein Kampf is about Jew hatred. Conclusion: the Koran written in Medina is more filled with Jew hatred than Mein Kampf. Here is one of the more egregious verses:

Last edited by Continuum; 02-15-2016 at 10:56 PM..
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Old 02-16-2016, 12:19 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. That is not true. According to "the idol scriptures that the Muslims venerate", not all polytheists should be killed but only those who wage war on Muslims, start killing Muslims, expell them from their homes on simple fact that they are Muslims. Those who do not attack Muslims and wish to live in peace with Muslims must not be killed by Muslims. The instruction in the Qur'an is clear, "if they live in peace with you, you live in peace with them". You and every evil prone person needs to understand this fact about the Qur'an.
No, it clearly states that not killing pagans is an extra mercy that can be revoked on the part of Muslims at their earliest convenience since it is the GRAVEST SIN to associate others above and with Allah, the god of insecurity. Indeed, the Invasion of India (by the Mughals?) was justified with a tiny verse of the Quran that said just that. The idea quickly became that the "best mercy" was enslaving pagans that didn't resist and then freeing them only if they converted to Islam, killing all pagans that resisted "Allah's appointed conquests". It is clearly expressed in the Quran that only "people of the [Abrahamic] book" can live in peace with Muslims as polytheists commit an unpardonable sin just by their existence. Evil prone are only those who don't think for themselves and accept no responsibly for themselves blaming gods for everything. The Ancient Arabic language was very vague and imperfect, so there can be various interpretations to the Quran, but most translations agree with the straight forward idea that polytheists are the greatest sinners just for their beliefs.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 02-16-2016 at 12:32 AM..
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Old 02-16-2016, 12:29 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
ALL human beings are born weak (not perfect or not evil prone). All human beings, therefore, have both good and evil qualities/traits. Islam tells them to do good and forbid evil. A Muslim must do good and forbid evil. If he does evil, and goes against the teachings of the Qur'an (do good and forbid evil) then he is just a human being but not a Muslim.

As for being influenced by the Qur'an because they see only evil material in the Qur'an, you are wrong. The current evil terrorism increased manlfold only in the last 60 to 70 years when these people were exposed to evil in the world (the Qur'an has been here for far longer than that). The Qur'an instructs us to do good and forbid evil. That is why your 80% of Muslims are lnfluenced by those teachings and not by the evil of crusades being waged against them.
All religions say to "do good and forbid evil" then they turn around and label things "good" and "evil" based only on "faith" (blind loyalty to thousands of empty words and interpretations) for their preferred convenience.
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Old 02-16-2016, 01:31 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,360,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
No, it clearly states that not killing pagans is an extra mercy that can be revoked on the part of Muslims at their earliest convenience since it is the GRAVEST SIN to associate others above and with Allah, the god of insecurity. Indeed, the Invasion of India (by the Mughals?) was justified with a tiny verse of the Quran that said just that. The idea quickly became that the "best mercy" was enslaving pagans that didn't resist and then freeing them only if they converted to Islam, killing all pagans that resisted "Allah's appointed conquests". It is clearly expressed in the Quran that only "people of the [Abrahamic] book" can live in peace with Muslims as polytheists commit an unpardonable sin just by their existence. Evil prone are only those who don't think for themselves and accept no responsibly for themselves blaming gods for everything. The Ancient Arabic language was very vague and imperfect, so there can be various interpretations to the Quran, but most translations agree with the straight forward idea that polytheists are the greatest sinners just for their beliefs.
Interesting thing about the Mughuls, (Mongols) there were not initiatlly Muslim until after they conqured India, Persia and Arabia. Although after conquering Arabia and accepting Islam they still held onto many Mongol traditions and culture. The Mongols began accepting Islam in 1295 at which time they had already conquered most of the Mideast and Northern India. But they were still Mongols at heart. It took several centuries for Islam to calm them down.

An interesting timeline of the Mongols can be read HERE
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Old 02-16-2016, 02:25 AM
 
3,200 posts, read 1,056,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
All religions say to "do good and forbid evil" then they turn around and label things "good" and "evil" based only on "faith" (blind loyalty to thousands of empty words and interpretations) for their preferred convenience.
Then why blame religion and not people for their "preferred convenience"?
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Old 02-16-2016, 02:40 AM
 
3,200 posts, read 1,056,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Indeed, the Invasion of India (by the Mughals?) was justified with a tiny verse of the Quran that said just that. The idea quickly became that the "best mercy" was enslaving pagans that didn't resist and then freeing them only if they converted to Islam, killing all pagans that resisted "Allah's appointed conquests". It is clearly expressed in the Quran that only "people of the [Abrahamic] book" can live in peace with Muslims as polytheists commit an unpardonable sin just by their existence. Evil prone are only those who don't think for themselves and accept no responsibly for themselves blaming gods for everything. The Ancient Arabic language was very vague and imperfect, so there can be various interpretations to the Quran, but most translations agree with the straight forward idea that polytheists are the greatest sinners just for their beliefs.
If invassion of India by the Mughals from Afghanistan was justified due to the imagined verse in the Qur'an then how did they justify their invasion of China, Afghanistan and Persia? Did they kill idol worshippers of Indiia after the invasion?

It wasn't even an invasion as Indians had invited Babar to help them in their dispute. British did the same kind of "invasion" of India. Once in, they took over most of India.
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Old 02-16-2016, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth
All religions say to "do good and forbid evil" then they turn around and label things "good" and "evil" based only on "faith" (blind loyalty to thousands of empty words and interpretations) for their preferred convenience.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Then why blame religion and not people for their "preferred convenience"?
I think you missed the point in bold by Luminous Truth.

All religions say to "do good and forbid evil" but
then they turn around and label things "good" and "evil" based only on "faith"
what it imply is: what is regarded as 'good' by certain religion may not be a universal good for all human kind.


To the Quran, "casting of terror" and "killing of non-Muslims" under certain conditions [vague] is regarded as good. Slavery to a certain extent is good is in the Quran. The Quran condone and permit a father to marry his living adopted son's wife. This is fundamentally immoral.
There are many such elements which are considered good in the Quran but questionable in the universal perspective.
In terms of universal human morals, the above elements by themselves are immoral and not-good, i.e. they are evil.


Note the ten commandment has the fundamental of good moral, i.e. Thou Shall Not Kill in absolute terms without any conditions. This is how morality should be presented, i.e. in absolute terms for such a significant moral issue.
This does not mean human cannot kill in justified circumstance and let God be the decision maker on Judgment Day.
The Critical Point is not to put the justifications in the holy texts and allow it to be interpret as if God sanction killings.


That is the problem with Islam and the Quran where Allah allow killing under various justifications which are very vague and ambiguous in the related verses.
Allah permit fighting and killing if Islam and Muslims are under the threats of oppression, corruption, mischiefs, are wronged, hindered in the practice, etc. These terms are so vague that even the drawing of cartoons trigger violent rampage and killing by SOME evil prone Muslims.


Example: When a group of people [with personal interested] point to some one and accused her of burning the Quran, the woman is immediately set on by a mob of Muslims [good and evil ones] they burned and kill her in Afghanistan.

Kabul, Afghanistan (CNN)An Afghan judge sentenced four men to death Wednesday in the mob killing of a woman accused of burning the Quran in March.

Eight other suspects received 16-year sentences. Eighteen others were found not guilty.
Afghan court sentences 4 to death for killing woman accused of burning Quran - CNN.com
There was an attempted murder of Malala in Pakistan where she was shot in the head and survive. And all this is because her promotion of education was interpreted as a threat and hindrance to Islam.


All the above acts are influenced and motivated [directly or indirectly] by actual evil laden verses in the Quran.


There are many [ten of thousands or more] other of the above incidents.
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Old 02-17-2016, 12:19 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Interesting thing about the Mughuls, (Mongols) there were not initiatlly Muslim until after they conqured India, Persia and Arabia. Although after conquering Arabia and accepting Islam they still held onto many Mongol traditions and culture. The Mongols began accepting Islam in 1295 at which time they had already conquered most of the Mideast and Northern India. But they were still Mongols at heart. It took several centuries for Islam to calm them down.

An interesting timeline of the Mongols can be read HERE
The Mughuls were a Muslim Empire whose fascist rulers claimed descent from the Great Conquerer Ghengis Khan and that their conquesting was justified by the Quran (orginially published by Arabian royalty) and Islam. The previous Mongol Empire had already crumbled once knowledge of the advanced weapons they used spread, and the centralization of power was broken up by internal politics.

Islam calmed down the Middle East? It calmed down the Mongols? I don't think so, it's business as usual with both of those.

Progress and Education are the only things that calm people down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire
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Old 02-17-2016, 12:25 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,770,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Then why blame religion and not people for their "preferred convenience"?
I'm not blaming religion, I'm blaming religious people (who are the integral parts that describe a religion). I can't blame mythology or pornography for how people might decide they want to use it. But it is clear that one can place blame on the creators and spreaders for their lack of foresight or caring, depending on the testable facts.
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Old 02-17-2016, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,360,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
I'm not blaming religion, I'm blaming religious people (who are the integral parts that describe a religion). I can't blame mythology or pornography for how people might decide they want to use it. But it is clear that one can place blame on the creators and spreaders for their lack of foresight or caring, depending on the testable facts.
Hopefully you view each Muslim as an individual and not all as blind followers of dogma or doctrine or under the leadership of self proclaimed clergy.

there are very view things all Muslims have in common.
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