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Old 02-22-2016, 04:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Hopefully you view each Muslim as an individual and not all as blind followers of dogma or doctrine or under the leadership of self proclaimed clergy.

there are very view things all Muslims have in common.
Each Muslim is different Muslim. At the end, each Muslim would have done differently in Islam in terms of deeds. I often criticise what other Muslims do and find many Muslims do not do what they are required to do or what I do. I found Muslims in Makkah are often short tempered and Muslims in Madina quite calm and polite. Muslims in my local community are also different. Many of them call themselves Muslims but know very little about Islam.

Yes, there are very few things all Muslims have in common.
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Old 02-23-2016, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Each Muslim is different Muslim. At the end, each Muslim would have done differently in Islam in terms of deeds. I often criticise what other Muslims do and find many Muslims do not do what they are required to do or what I do. I found Muslims in Makkah are often short tempered and Muslims in Madina quite calm and polite. Muslims in my local community are also different. Many of them call themselves Muslims but know very little about Islam.

Yes, there are very few things all Muslims have in common.
You are just complaining about other Muslims without any objective or rational basis.


Note you can present your above views more objectively.
You prepare a checklists of all the expected deeds a Muslim must do.
Then you place grading for each deeds. [from 1low to 10high]
In addition you can place "weightages'.
When you have assessed each Muslim and compute the total, you will arrive at a %.
It can be 10%, 50% or 90%.
In this case there is nothing wrong if you rate them as 10% Muslim, 50% or 90%-Muslim.


However the above must be qualified, i.e. that is only based on your assessment and based on your own personal criteria. So it may be not be very accurate or true. Nevertheless if any one challenge you, you have something objective to rely on.


However the above exercise can be improved tremendously if you refer to all the 6,236 verses of the Quran, discuss with your peers to get consensus, etc.


Now when you accused some one of being not a good Muslims [even in terms of %-Muslim] or praise someone as a Good Muslim you have something objective to show them. Then they are accept or reject your assessment by questioning your assessments and markings instead of merely based on a subjective opinion and feelings.
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Old 02-23-2016, 02:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are just complaining about other Muslims without any objective or rational basis.


Note you can present your above views more objectively.
You prepare a checklists of all the expected deeds a Muslim must do.
Then you place grading for each deeds. [from 1low to 10high]
In addition you can place "weightages'.
When you have assessed each Muslim and compute the total, you will arrive at a %.
It can be 10%, 50% or 90%.
In this case there is nothing wrong if you rate them as 10% Muslim, 50% or 90%-Muslim.


However the above must be qualified, i.e. that is only based on your assessment and based on your own personal criteria. So it may be not be very accurate or true. Nevertheless if any one challenge you, you have something objective to rely on.


However the above exercise can be improved tremendously if you refer to all the 6,236 verses of the Quran, discuss with your peers to get consensus, etc.


Now when you accused some one of being not a good Muslims [even in terms of %-Muslim] or praise someone as a Good Muslim you have something objective to show them. Then they are accept or reject your assessment by questioning your assessments and markings instead of merely based on a subjective opinion and feelings.
You and I see Khalif's Post differently. I do not comprehend it as a criticism of any Muslim but as pointing out we are each different. No 2 Muslims have the exact same beliefs nor do the exact same things but each is equal in terms of being Muslim. There is no such thing as a % of Muslim a person is either a Muslim or is not a Muslim,
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You and I see Khalif's Post differently. I do not comprehend it as a criticism of any Muslim but as pointing out we are each different. No 2 Muslims have the exact same beliefs nor do the exact same things but each is equal in terms of being Muslim. There is no such thing as a % of Muslim a person is either a Muslim or is not a Muslim,
You have to accept Khalif's words when he specifically mentioned 'criticize.' Therefore it is a criticism literally but I take it not as a condemnation in the negative sense but rather as a constructive criticism.




You are wrong in saying there is no such thing as a % of Muslim without taking into consideration I am doing it.


There was no such thing as a % in any thing before the computation of % was introduced.
Any fraction or part multiply by 100 give us the %.
A quarter apple is 25%.
The % was an advanced computation introduced by intelligent and wise people to facilitate the improvement of life on an objective basis rather than by subjective feelings.


The fact is we can % anything as long as we can quantified the variable in some ways and compare two quantities of the same thing. Even the arts, the subjective or beauty can be quantified as in the Miss Universe and other beauty contests.


So we can % anything, including Muslim_ness, Buddhist, Christian, etc.
The point is how we can compute and use it intelligently, wisely, in context and understand the limitations of the %.
Agree?
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Old 02-24-2016, 01:18 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You have to accept Khalif's words when he specifically mentioned 'criticize.' Therefore it is a criticism literally but I take it not as a condemnation in the negative sense but rather as a constructive criticism.




You are wrong in saying there is no such thing as a % of Muslim without taking into consideration I am doing it.


There was no such thing as a % in any thing before the computation of % was introduced.
Any fraction or part multiply by 100 give us the %.
A quarter apple is 25%.
The % was an advanced computation introduced by intelligent and wise people to facilitate the improvement of life on an objective basis rather than by subjective feelings.


The fact is we can % anything as long as we can quantified the variable in some ways and compare two quantities of the same thing. Even the arts, the subjective or beauty can be quantified as in the Miss Universe and other beauty contests.


So we can % anything, including Muslim_ness, Buddhist, Christian, etc.
The point is how we can compute and use it intelligently, wisely, in context and understand the limitations of the %.
Agree?
It comes down to what constitutes a Muslim. A Muslim is a Muslim it is not dependent upon what Percentage of the ayyats he has done. A person can be a Muslim and having never seen a Qur'an and a person can be non-Muslim and having complied with a very large percentage of the Qur'an.

Actually very few ayyats are actions. Many none Muslims including atheists have probably complied with a percentage of the ayyats. Using your logic every human is some percent Muslim.

It is quite probable you your self have complied with some ayyats, do you believe that makes you a certain percent Muslim? For example the Qur'an forbids you from having more than 4 wives. If you have less than 4 wives you are already in compliance with a percentage of the Qur'an, does that make you x% Muslim? Do you donate to any charities, if so you are complying with a percentage of the Qur'an, does that mean you are that % Muslim?
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Old 02-24-2016, 01:46 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It comes down to what constitutes a Muslim. A Muslim is a Muslim it is not dependent upon what Percentage of the ayyats he has done. A person can be a Muslim and having never seen a Qur'an and a person can be non-Muslim and having complied with a very large percentage of the Qur'an.

Actually very few ayyats are actions. Many none Muslims including atheists have probably complied with a percentage of the ayyats. Using your logic every human is some percent Muslim.

It is quite probable you your self have complied with some ayyats, do you believe that makes you a certain percent Muslim? For example the Qur'an forbids you from having more than 4 wives. If you have less than 4 wives you are already in compliance with a percentage of the Qur'an, does that make you x% Muslim? Do you donate to any charities, if so you are complying with a percentage of the Qur'an, does that mean you are that % Muslim?
Your point is definitely off.


A Muslim is one who has entered [explicitly or implicitly] into a covenant with Allah.
Since I have not entered into a covenant with Allah, I cannot be a Muslim.
This is why the concept of the 'covenant with Allah' is very critical.
It is upon the covenant that a Muslim is obliged follow up to worship [which include submit, believe, obey, serve, do one's duty, etc.] Allah.


Therefore if I do not drink, eat pork, has less than 4 wives, help orphans, I cannot be a Muslim at all, not even a zero-%-Muslim.


The point is once a person has entered into a covenant with Allah [e.g. initiated by the Sahada or otherwise] then only we can began to assess his/her % Muslim.


Yes, a Muslim need not to be graded a %-Muslim at all. No Muslim has ever done this % thing.
However my proposal to grade a % Muslim is very useful to Muslims and non-Muslims when we can do it effectively. The point is to ensure it fool proof and not likely to significant errors.
Establishing the grading process can be tough but once done can be continuously improved.


If a person is graded a 10%-Muslim [with some margin of errors] then s/he know that s/he has to improve to be at better Muslim by increasing his/her % to say 50% or more. This can be done objectively by referring to the detail analysis done and noting which areas to improve. The person will be guided by a checklist.


The critical factor is the improvement, analysis and assessment can be done objectively which most can agree because the details are laid open rather than based on subjective judgments and feeling, opinions of others.
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Old 02-24-2016, 02:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your point is definitely off.


A Muslim is one who has entered [explicitly or implicitly] into a covenant with Allah.
Since I have not entered into a covenant with Allah, I cannot be a Muslim.
This is why the concept of the 'covenant with Allah' is very critical.
It is upon the covenant that a Muslim is obliged follow up to worship [which include submit, believe, obey, serve, do one's duty, etc.] Allah.


Therefore if I do not drink, eat pork, has less than 4 wives, help orphans, I cannot be a Muslim at all, not even a zero-%-Muslim.


The point is once a person has entered into a covenant with Allah [e.g. initiated by the Sahada or otherwise] then only we can began to assess his/her % Muslim.


Yes, a Muslim need not to be graded a %-Muslim at all. No Muslim has ever done this % thing.
However my proposal to grade a % Muslim is very useful to Muslims and non-Muslims when we can do it effectively. The point is to ensure it fool proof and not likely to significant errors.
Establishing the grading process can be tough but once done can be continuously improved.


If a person is graded a 10%-Muslim [with some margin of errors] then s/he know that s/he has to improve to be at better Muslim by increasing his/her % to say 50% or more. This can be done objectively by referring to the detail analysis done and noting which areas to improve. The person will be guided by a checklist.


The critical factor is the improvement, analysis and assessment can be done objectively which most can agree because the details are laid open rather than based on subjective judgments and feeling, opinions of others.
Then perhaps you need to understand how Muslims define Islam and what constitutes a Muslim. Your definition of a covenant does not seem to agree with what many of us perceive as our relationship with Allaah(swt). Which is very individual and personal. Only Allaah(swt) knows who is performing Islam to the Best of his ability and knowledge. Only Allaah(swt) Knows the sincerity and intent in a person's heart. Perfection is neither possible nor expected, what will be judged is our performance in accordance with our ability. No one will be held accountable for that which they have no control over and they will be rewarded for things they desire to do but for reasons beyond their control can not do.

For example Only about 10% of all Muslims will ever be able to perform Hajj. Yet every person with the sincere intent and desire to do Hajj but can't for reasons beyond their control, will be rewarded for doing Hajj even though they could not do so physically. (Mecca can only accommodate about 3 Million pilgrims for Hajj each year, there are over1.5 billion Muslims at that rate it will take 500 years just for the current Muslims to do Hajj)

While the person who if at even one point in their life had the ability to do Hajj but did not do so, will not be rewarded for Hajj. Very possible it will be considered apostasy and they have not performed Islam. A person's deliberate choice to not do any one of the 5 pillars may suffice as proof the person is not performing Islam,but that is between the person and Allaah(swt) and not for us to judge.
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Old 02-24-2016, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Then perhaps you need to understand how Muslims define Islam and what constitutes a Muslim.
Your definition of a covenant does not seem to agree with what many of us perceive as our relationship with Allaah(swt). Which is very individual and personal.


Only Allaah(swt) knows who is performing Islam to the Best of his ability and knowledge. Only Allaah(swt) Knows the sincerity and intent in a person's heart. Perfection is neither possible nor expected, what will be judged is our performance in accordance with our ability. No one will be held accountable for that which they have no control over and they will be rewarded for things they desire to do but for reasons beyond their control can not do.
Most Muslims will define a Muslim as one who has affirmed the Shahada or its essential in accordance to the Quran and is expected to perform the 5 pillars to the best of their ability. Ultimately whatever is done is up to Allah to decide on Judgment Day. This is very flimsy on the part of the Muslim.


In the 6,236 verses of the Quran there are many obligations that a Muslim must abide with and obey [in the best of his abilities] to meet Allah's expectations. How can one do that if they do not make reference to all 6,236 verses in the Quran and do what is expected.


What I am presenting as 'what is a Muslim' is based on a very objective basis where no one can dispute rationally with reference to Allah's actual words in the Quran.
How can I be wrong on this if I rely on Allah's own words?
You show me where I am wrong in my proposals.


The Covenant - an agreement with Allah
The covenant with Allah and the expected terms and conditions are expressed in the Quran in various verses.
In the covenant Allah made promises of rewards if a Muslim comply to what is expected in the Quran.
Don't think too far with the term 'covenant.'
A covenant is merely and nothing more than an agreement or contract but dressed in the theological perspective.


Allah stated in the Quran a covenant between a Muslim and Allah exist.
So how can you deny that?
It is not surprising the majority of Muslims are ignorant of this.
To enlighten every Muslim to understand the existent of a covenant they have entered into with Allah is added knowledge which we help them to be truer Muslims.


Worshipping Allah
Upon the affirming to the covenant with Allah, a Muslim must proceed to worship Allah in actions and thoughts, which include, submit, surrender, believe, serve, obey, do one's duty, etc.
The principles of what and how to worship is contained within the Quran.

Assessment of being a Muslim
Ultimately it is Allah who will know what a Muslim has done in his life time.
But in the mean time how can a Muslim performed to his best intention objectively and not subjectively?


A Muslim or a group of Muslim cannot think they are doing their best based merely on what they think and feel [subjectively] they have done their best in accordance to the Quran. The point is how do they know they have comply with all that is expected in the Quran. Some times doing something sincerely could be wrong or a sin.


To be objective, a Muslim [or his sect or group] must therefore review all the 6,236 verses of the Quran and establish whatever is expected of a Muslim without omitting any obligations.
This is why I suggest using the 6,236 verses as a checklist with appropriate weightages and grading for each obligations [commands, rules, doctrine, principles, etc.]


I believe my proposals above is the most efficient approach for one to be a truer Muslim.
I know most Muslims do follow the above approach and what they are doing is ineffective in relation to what is expected from them in the Quran.
Can you show me what is wrong with the above?
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Old 02-25-2016, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,286,660 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Most Muslims will define a Muslim as one who has affirmed the Shahada or its essential in accordance to the Quran and is expected to perform the 5 pillars to the best of their ability. Ultimately whatever is done is up to Allah to decide on Judgment Day. This is very flimsy on the part of the Muslim.


In the 6,236 verses of the Quran there are many obligations that a Muslim must abide with and obey [in the best of his abilities] to meet Allah's expectations. How can one do that if they do not make reference to all 6,236 verses in the Quran and do what is expected.


What I am presenting as 'what is a Muslim' is based on a very objective basis where no one can dispute rationally with reference to Allah's actual words in the Quran.
How can I be wrong on this if I rely on Allah's own words?
You show me where I am wrong in my proposals.


The Covenant - an agreement with Allah
The covenant with Allah and the expected terms and conditions are expressed in the Quran in various verses.
In the covenant Allah made promises of rewards if a Muslim comply to what is expected in the Quran.
Don't think too far with the term 'covenant.'
A covenant is merely and nothing more than an agreement or contract but dressed in the theological perspective.


Allah stated in the Quran a covenant between a Muslim and Allah exist.
So how can you deny that?
It is not surprising the majority of Muslims are ignorant of this.
To enlighten every Muslim to understand the existent of a covenant they have entered into with Allah is added knowledge which we help them to be truer Muslims.


Worshipping Allah
Upon the affirming to the covenant with Allah, a Muslim must proceed to worship Allah in actions and thoughts, which include, submit, surrender, believe, serve, obey, do one's duty, etc.
The principles of what and how to worship is contained within the Quran.

Assessment of being a Muslim
Ultimately it is Allah who will know what a Muslim has done in his life time.
But in the mean time how can a Muslim performed to his best intention objectively and not subjectively?


A Muslim or a group of Muslim cannot think they are doing their best based merely on what they think and feel [subjectively] they have done their best in accordance to the Quran. The point is how do they know they have comply with all that is expected in the Quran. Some times doing something sincerely could be wrong or a sin.


To be objective, a Muslim [or his sect or group] must therefore review all the 6,236 verses of the Quran and establish whatever is expected of a Muslim without omitting any obligations.
This is why I suggest using the 6,236 verses as a checklist with appropriate weightages and grading for each obligations [commands, rules, doctrine, principles, etc.]


I believe my proposals above is the most efficient approach for one to be a truer Muslim.
I know most Muslims do follow the above approach and what they are doing is ineffective in relation to what is expected from them in the Quran.
Can you show me what is wrong with the above?
Your last part seems to be a very good summation of what you have said above it. For brevity I am just addressing that portion:

Quote:
Assessment of being a Muslim
Ultimately it is Allah who will know what a Muslim has done in his life time.
But in the mean time how can a Muslim performed to his best intention objectively and not subjectively?
This is the self responsibility of Islam. We each have the obligation to question and verify all things. We individually are responsible for our actions and can not hold the teachings of any teacher, scholar, leader etc as true unless we our self have verified them independently on our own. We do not have the option of using "We were misled" as an excuse.

We can use the opinions of others as guides, (Commentaries, Tafsir, opinions, explanations etc) but not to do so blindly, if we follow another and they are in error, it is our own fault for not verifying what they taught.


Quote:
A Muslim or a group of Muslim cannot think they are doing their best based merely on what they think and feel [subjectively] they have done their best in accordance to the Quran. The point is how do they know they have comply with all that is expected in the Quran. Some times doing something sincerely could be wrong or a sin.
True it is very possible we will make errors. But they are to be our errors and we alone will reap the punishment for such. It is our individual responsibility to verify all things. Now if we see someone doing what we believe is in error, we have the responsibility to tell that individual why we believe it is an error and if they believe we are the one in error it is their responsibility to tell us why. To be Muslim is to be in a constant state of learning and verification. Our first source is the Qur'an. Second Source is the Sunnah (Which consists of numerous sources including but not limited to Sira and Ahadith ) the Next source is the consensus of Scholar, Fourth comes our own wisdom and logic, lastly comes local customs and practices


Quote:
To be objective, a Muslim [or his sect or group] must therefore review all the 6,236 verses of the Quran and establish whatever is expected of a Muslim without omitting any obligations.
This is why I suggest using the 6,236 verses as a checklist with appropriate weightages and grading for each obligations [commands, rules, doctrine, principles, etc.]
First step is to understand no translation is the Qur'an. We can not understand the Qur'an or even study it properly until we can do so in Qur'anic Arabic. Until that point we have to seek out and evaluate teachers, Friends, acquaintances that we are certain are more knowledgeable than us, but always with the view of needing to verify all things. If a learned prson tells us something, we are responsible to verify it.

When a Person begins to Comprehend the Qur'an in Arabic, they will not be reading 6,236 verses, they will be reading 114 Surat.


Quote:
I believe my proposals above is the most efficient approach for one to be a truer Muslim.
I know most Muslims do follow the above approach and what they are doing is ineffective in relation to what is expected from them in the Quran.
Can you show me what is wrong with the above?
The above would require understanding each ayyat as a full thought and complete in itself. Which is not the case. It is each Surah that is the complete thought. Also not all Surat are equal Surah al-Ikhas (112) is considered to be 1/3 the Qur'an by itself. al-Fatiha (Surah 1) is considered to contain the entire meaning of the Qur'an. To understand al-Fatiha is to understand the Qur'an

When a person is studying to be Hafiz they will First Memorize al-Fatiha, Then al-Ikhlas and then the entirety of Juz 30 (Amma) which are Surah 78-114. after that the order is of no particular importance but it is recommended to only memorize one Surah per month and limit one's study to at least 1 hour per day but no more than 2.

The easiest way to understand each Surah is to first grasp a full understanding of al-Fatiha and al-Ikhlas and then relate each Surah to them.

An advantage of learning to read the Qur'an in Arabic is it prevents one from reading each ayyat as a complete thought. A recitation will usually consist of 9 or more ayyats. The Qur'an is intended to be heard, not read.
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Old 02-25-2016, 10:58 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,942 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are just complaining about other Muslims without any objective or rational basis.
I complain about many people. If you want to understand me, why don't you get into my mind?


Quote:
Note you can present your above views more objectively.
You prepare a checklists of all the expected deeds a Muslim must do.
Then you place grading for each deeds. [from 1low to 10high]
In addition you can place "weightages'.
When you have assessed each Muslim and compute the total, you will arrive at a %.
It can be 10%, 50% or 90%.
In this case there is nothing wrong if you rate them as 10% Muslim, 50% or 90%-Muslim.
On this board, I am not that stupid.


Quote:
However the above must be qualified, i.e. that is only based on your assessment and based on your own personal criteria. So it may be not be very accurate or true. Nevertheless if any one challenge you, you have something objective to rely on.

However the above exercise can be improved tremendously if you refer to all the 6,236 verses of the Quran, discuss with your peers to get consensus, etc.
All that is imposible unless I get into the minds of all those Muslims and then judge them as Allah only can judge them. Therefore, on this board and in this forum, discussing Islam and Islamic issues/topics, you are lost guy. Nobody is going to do that.

Quote:
Now when you accused some one of being not a good Muslims [even in terms of %-Muslim] or praise someone as a Good Muslim you have something objective to show them. Then they are accept or reject your assessment by questioning your assessments and markings instead of merely based on a subjective opinion and feelings.
Once again, you did not understand that they are all Muslims when they obey Allah and not Muslims during the action which is against serving Allah. There is no "bad Muslim" or "good Muslim". I know what I do. Nobody knows me more than I do. I can't be rated the way you are suggesting here. If I can't rate myself untill Allah gives His judgment on the Day of Judgment, which other stupid enough person is going to do that???

Would you be silly enough to do Allah's judgment?
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