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Old 02-26-2016, 01:03 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
0% means "nil" or "nothing". When someone recites Shahada,, he is now "believer" (he believes as in 2:285). Believing is fundamental requirement before one can be called "believer". He is on his way to do Islamic deeds to become Muslim.

Anyone who says that he believes but dose intends to do no Islamic deed is neither a believer nor a Muslim but hypocrite. He does not really believe but only says that he believes. Being a Muslim, by doing Islamic actions and deeds, actually proves that the person is really a believer and a Muslim.

Hypocites may go through the motions of submission and claim that he is submitting but he does not really believe.

One thing is clear from both examples that one must "believe" (have Eeman as described in 2:285) first and then "obey the commands" (submit practicaly) to be a Muslim.

0% Muslim is not a Muslim yet. He is nil, nothing, nought, not a Muslim. Once he does an Islamic action, by obeying Allah, he is a Muslim. That's why you rated him 0% Muslim because he has done no Islamic action/deed yet but only intends to those actions.

Therefore, 0% Muslim means not a Muslim.
This is an issue of semantics.


I defined a Muslim as one who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the Shahada or the like of it.
In this case I rate such a person as 0% Muslim.
If you are pedantic then s/he is a 0.0321% Muslim and rounded to 0%-Muslim.
0.0321%-Muslim because s/he has accepted two fundamental elements of the 6,236 verses of the Quran.



Not-a-Muslim is one who has not entered into a covenant [explicitly or implicitly] with Allah.
Note a baby of Muslim parents is a Muslim via a covenant implicitly via the parent.


If you insist then I can agree a person who has affirmed the Shahada and has entered into a covenant with Allah is a 0.0321%-Muslim.
Would it better to round it up to 0% Muslim?


Here I think is a better perspective to differentiate 'submit' and 'believe.'


1. A person is informed of the Reminder or warning [Quran]

Opinion
2. Then the person has a high opinion* of Islam and decide to be a Muslim.
* a high opinion entail some very low degree of believe, say 5% so we don't term it as "believe" per-se.


Submission
3. Thereupon the person began the process of submission by entering [explicitly or implicitly] into a covenant with Allah by affirming the Shahada or the likes.
At this stage, the 0.032% Muslim is only committed to 2 elements out of the 6,236 verses in the Quran.


Note my thread [re the Wandering Arabs] where I argued in accordance to Allah's words "submission" is of a lower grade of worship than "believe".


Submission in this case imply the Muslim will be submitting to Allah as long as he is a Muslim. Submission do not stop after the Shahada is affirmed.
A Muslim is always in a state of submission to Allah but a Muslim is expected to progress to a higher state of 'believe.'

Believe
4. After entering into the covenant with Allah, the Muslim has to worship [submit, surrender, believe, serve, obey, learn more about Islam, do one's duty, etc.]
While a Muslim worship Allah progressively, s/he learn more and more about Islam and thus his 'believe' in Islam is strengthen. 'Believe' is always supported by personal knowledge of the religion and conviction of the belief.


It is from this stage of 'believe' that a Muslim began to increase his % of Muslim_ness in relation to the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
The more verses a Muslim comply with the 6,236 verses the higher the degree of his believe.
Those with the higher degree of believe are the "men of understanding" as referred to all over the Quran.


Note: While a Muslim increase his intensity of 'believe' he is always under the initial and basic state of submission.




The above is the difference between 'Submission' and 'Believe'.


Knowledge
Because theism is via faith, i.e. belief without proof nor reason, there is no knowledge-proper from theology. The best outcome of theistic theology is 'belief' and believing.
Knowledge proper must be supported by the strongest personal beliefs and strongest objective justifications [empirically or philosophically].
Therefore there is no knowledge-proper from a God and theistic religions.


What produce knowledge is Science plus those fields with sound philosophical justifications.


I am confident of the above because the above principles are expounded thoroughly in Philosophy, i.e. epistemology.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-26-2016 at 01:18 AM..
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Old 02-26-2016, 01:34 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is an issue of semantics.


I defined a Muslim as one who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the Shahada or the like of it.
In this case I rate such a person as 0% Muslim.
If you are pedantic then s/he is a 0.0321% Muslim and rounded to 0%-Muslim.
0.0321%-Muslim because s/he has accepted two fundamental elements of the 6,236 verses of the Quran.



Not-a-Muslim is one who has not entered into a covenant [explicitly or implicitly] with Allah.
Note a baby of Muslim parents is a Muslim via a covenant implicitly via the parent.


If you insist then I can agree a person who has affirmed the Shahada and has entered into a covenant with Allah is a 0.0321%-Muslim.
Would it better to round it up to 0% Muslim?


Here I think is a better perspective to differentiate 'submit' and 'believe.'


1. A person is informed of the Reminder or warning [Quran]


2. Then the person has a high opinion* of Islam and decide to be a Muslim.
* a high opinion entail some very low degree of believe, say 5% so we don't term it as "believe" per-se.


Submission
3. Thereupon the person began the process of submission by entering [explicitly or implicitly] into a covenant with Allah by affirming the Shahada or the likes.
Note my thread [re the Wandering Arabs] where I argued "submission" lower than to "believe" in accordance to Allah's words.
Submission in this case imply the Muslim will be submitting to Allah as long as he is a Muslim. Submission do not stop after the Shahada is affirmed.


Believe
4. After entering into the covenant with Allah, the Muslim has to worship [submit, surrender, believe, serve, obey, learn more about Islam, do one's duty, etc.]
While a Muslim worship Allah progressively, s/he learn more and more about Islam and thus his 'believe' in Islam is strengthen. 'Believe' is always supported by personal knowledge and conviction of the belief.
While a Muslim increase his intensity of 'believe' he is always under the state of submission.
Those with the higher degree of believe are the "men of understanding" referred all over the Quran.


The above is the difference between 'Submission' and 'Believe'.


Knowledge
Because theism is via faith, i.e. belief without proof nor reason, there is no knowledge-proper from theology. The best outcome of theistic theology is 'belief' and believing.
Knowledge proper must be supported by the strongest personal beliefs and strongest objective justifications [empirically or philosophically].
Therefore there is no knowledge-proper from a God and theistic religions.


What produce knowledge is Science plus those fields with sound philosophical justifications.


I am confident of the above because the above principles are expounded thoroughly in Philosophy, i.e. epistemology.
I think you are in need of my sympathy first and then a bit of Islamic knowledge.

You are getting mixed up in understandiing eeman (belief) and submitting (practically). Shahada is affirmation of belief. Submitting is Islam in practice.

Your confusion is related to your misunderstaning of verse about he desert Arabs. They were saying that they are doing the rituals (praying alongside others) but they were doing it not because they had "believed" but just to please Muhammad that they are submitting. Therefore, believing first is what leads to Islam (submitting) and then you begin submitting with true belief. Just going through the outward motions of submission without belief is hypocrisy and not Islam. It is hard for you to get around it because you are not aware of what it is like to truely believe, have solid faith..
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Old 02-26-2016, 02:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I think you are in need of my sympathy first and then a bit of Islamic knowledge.

You are getting mixed up in understandiing eeman (belief) and submitting (practically). Shahada is affirmation of belief. Submitting is Islam in practice.

Your confusion is related to your misunderstaning of verse about he desert Arabs. They were saying that they are doing the rituals (praying alongside others) but they were doing it not because they had "believed" but just to please Muhammad that they are submitting. Therefore, believing first is what leads to Islam (submitting) and then you begin submitting with true belief. Just going through the outward motions of submission without belief is hypocrisy and not Islam. It is hard for you to get around it because you are not aware of what it is like to truely believe, have solid faith..
What I have presented in accordance to universal human nature regardless of what religion a person belongs to.


I believe this is a case of semantics and because you must be bias in your beliefs you are merely twisting the semantics.


'Submitting' and 'believing' do overlap to a certain degree.
But the proper meaning of 'Submitting' and 'believing' is what I have presented.


The order is always like this;


1. First one submit or surrender to some authorities, God, Conqueror.


2. While under the state of submission, one then do other acts, e.g. believing, etc.
Thus at stage two is it believing under a state of submission.
When a Muslim pray that is not submission.
A Muslim submitted earlier, stayed that way and then prayed and do other Islamic deeds.
Thus the act of praying is not an act of submission.
The act of believing is not an act of submission.


The Quran did not mention the act is prayer is an act of submission.
Prayers and other worshipping acts follow the acts of submission.
There are two different mental acts in this case.


Following 49:14, i.e. 49:15
49:15. The (true) believers [Muslims] are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. Such are the sincere.
In 49:15 Allah mentioned the believers and not submitters.
Allah should have emphasized 'submission' if submission is a significant and critical act.

The act of believing as per Allah is a higher grade than the act 'submission'.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-26-2016 at 02:22 AM..
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Old 02-26-2016, 06:30 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is an issue of semantics.


I defined a Muslim as one who has entered into a covenant with Allah by affirming the Shahada or the like of it.
In this case I rate such a person as 0% Muslim.
If you are pedantic then s/he is a 0.0321% Muslim and rounded to 0%-Muslim.
0.0321%-Muslim because s/he has accepted two fundamental elements of the 6,236 verses of the Quran.



Not-a-Muslim is one who has not entered into a covenant [explicitly or implicitly] with Allah.
Note a baby of Muslim parents is a Muslim via a covenant implicitly via the parent.


If you insist then I can agree a person who has affirmed the Shahada and has entered into a covenant with Allah is a 0.0321%-Muslim.
Would it better to round it up to 0% Muslim?
A believer is someone who believes as described in 2:285. A Muslim is someone who submits to God by obeying His commands for any action or stays away from any prohibition commanded by God. Shahada is only affirmation of belief. It is not practice of submitting which is obeying many commands.

Let me put it in a different way:

You want to enter a house. Entering that house is the main thing. Until you actually enter that house you haven't entered it. You can't enter it until you open the door first. Even when you open the door, you still haven't entered the house. Just opening the door is not enough but you have to then walk into the house. Shahada is like you opening the door (prerequisite) and walking in is the action that makes you achieve he goal of entering the house.

Quote:
Here I think is a better perspective to differentiate 'submit' and 'believe.'


1. A person is informed of the Reminder or warning [Quran]

Opinion
2. Then the person has a high opinion* of Islam and decide to be a Muslim.
* a high opinion entail some very low degree of believe, say 5% so we don't term it as "believe" per-se.


Submission
3. Thereupon the person began the process of submission by entering [explicitly or implicitly] into a covenant with Allah by affirming the Shahada or the likes.
At this stage, the 0.032% Muslim is only committed to 2 elements out of the 6,236 verses in the Quran.


Note my thread [re the Wandering Arabs] where I argued in accordance to Allah's words "submission" is of a lower grade of worship than "believe".


Submission in this case imply the Muslim will be submitting to Allah as long as he is a Muslim. Submission do not stop after the Shahada is affirmed.
A Muslim is always in a state of submission to Allah but a Muslim is expected to progress to a higher state of 'believe.'

Believe
4. After entering into the covenant with Allah, the Muslim has to worship [submit, surrender, believe, serve, obey, learn more about Islam, do one's duty, etc.]
While a Muslim worship Allah progressively, s/he learn more and more about Islam and thus his 'believe' in Islam is strengthen. 'Believe' is always supported by personal knowledge of the religion and conviction of the belief.


It is from this stage of 'believe' that a Muslim began to increase his % of Muslim_ness in relation to the 6,236 verses of the Quran.
The more verses a Muslim comply with the 6,236 verses the higher the degree of his believe.
Those with the higher degree of believe are the "men of understanding" as referred to all over the Quran.


Note: While a Muslim increase his intensity of 'believe' he is always under the initial and basic state of submission.

The above is the difference between 'Submission' and 'Believe'.
'Submission' is Islam in practice and 'believe' is faith in your heart.

You are now moving on from 0% Muslim to 0% believer. I can tell you that, using your idea,
You are 0% believer and 0% Muslim.

Quote:
'Submitting' and 'believing' do overlap to a certain degree.
No. Believing must come first or else their is no true submitting.

Quote:
The order is always like this;

1. First one submit or surrender to some authorities, God, Conqueror.

2. While under the state of submission, one then do other acts, e.g. believing, etc.
Thus at stage two is it believing under a state of submission.
When a Muslim pray that is not submission.
A Muslim submitted earlier, stayed that way and then prayed and do other Islamic deeds.
Thus the act of praying is not an act of submission.
The act of believing is not an act of submission.


The Quran did not mention the act is prayer is an act of submission.
Prayers and other worshipping acts follow the acts of submission.
There are two different mental acts in this case.


Following 49:14, i.e. 49:15
49:15. The (true) believers [Muslims] are those only who believe in Allah and His messenger and afterward doubt not, but strive with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah. Such are the sincere.
In 49:15 Allah mentioned the believers and not submitters.
Allah should have emphasized 'submission' if submission is a significant and critical act.
You misunderstand.

In 49:15, Allah is saying that the true believers are only those who believe in Allah and His messenger and then doubt not, but then strive hard with their wealth and their lives (actions in Islam/Submission/ Submitting) in the way of Allah.

Allah has clearly emphasized in 49:15 that you cannot be a believer without Submission after believing. Believing on its own does not make you Submitter (Muslim) but actions of submitting after believing.

So believing comes first and submission afterwards to be true believer.
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Old 02-26-2016, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Submission to some degree is an observable aspect of Islam. But even then not measurable as we can not measure a person's intent and sincerity . Belief can not be seen all we know is what a person says. Perfection and completion is not required, what is required is to the best of our ability. Using myself as an example, because of physical limitation of my back, Right arm and right leg I can not go through the physical motions of Salat, I have to sit in a chair and simply go through the motions in my thoughts. Yet,I am quite certain that does not mean I am only performing a small percentage of Salat.

We have no way of knowing who is a Muslim. We only know if a person claims to be Muslim. There is no measurement of how much Muslim a person is. There is no such thing as being a % Muslim.

Eeman is not visible, There is no competition among Muslims as Eeman is personal and between the Individual and Allaah(swt) alone. Our concern is our own worthiness not the worthiness of our neighbors.
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Old 02-26-2016, 12:45 PM
 
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The main purpose of Salat is to remember Allah. One can do it standing, sitting or even lay flat on the ground or even bed due to disability. In fact, according to the Qur'an, remembering Allah is better than prayer. Remembering Allah keeps one away from wrong acts.

Submission is simply obeying Allah for our own benefit and benefit of others. That is how one acts as Allah's vicegerent on earth.
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Old 02-26-2016, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
A believer is someone who believes as described in 2:285. A Muslim is someone who submits to God by obeying His commands for any action or stays away from any prohibition commanded by God. Shahada is only affirmation of belief. It is not practice of submitting which is obeying many commands.

Let me put it in a different way:

You want to enter a house. Entering that house is the main thing. Until you actually enter that house you haven't entered it. You can't enter it until you open the door first. Even when you open the door, you still haven't entered the house. Just opening the door is not enough but you have to then walk into the house. Shahada is like you opening the door (prerequisite) and walking in is the action that makes you achieve he goal of entering the house.

'Submission' is Islam in practice and 'believe' is faith in your heart.

You are now moving on from 0% Muslim to 0% believer. I can tell you that, using your idea,
You are 0% believer and 0% Muslim.


No. Believing must come first or else their is no true submitting.

You misunderstand.

In 49:15, Allah is saying that the true believers are only those who believe in Allah and His messenger and then doubt not, but then strive hard with their wealth and their lives (actions in Islam/Submission/ Submitting) in the way of Allah.

Allah has clearly emphasized in 49:15 that you cannot be a believer without Submission after believing. Believing on its own does not make you Submitter (Muslim) but actions of submitting after believing.

So believing comes first and submission afterwards to be true believer.
You got it wrong in the above.


Both 'submission' and 'believing' are mental acts not physical acts.
Thus your 'entering [action] a house' example is not valid.


Here is a better example that reflect mental acts and not physical actions;


1. Suppose I tell X, he will die soon and I have a cure for him within 6 months.
2. For me to cure him, X must submit his will to me [obey me without questions].
3. In order for X to submit to me, he must have some degree of faith* in me.
4. *Now faith is "belief" without proofs nor reason.
5. At this initial stage this 'belief-A' is not a strong believe proper.
6. Once X agree to submit, he then has to began the process of submission.
7. Obviously both me and X must enter into an agreement or contract [covenant if theology] to reflect his submission and his subsequent obedience of all my commands/instruction.
8. One of my condition is X must learn more about me and the process of the cure progressively while I am curing him.
9. Now while X is still submitting to me, X is learning more about me and the process of the cure progressively, his initial faith, i.e. belief-B will progressively increase within his mind [heart as used in Islam].


10. Belief-B is the proper and stronger process of believing and this Belief-B is stronger and of a higher grade than the initial and maintain 'submission' started in 2 above.
This is what 49:14 is conveying.


The wandering Arabs has performed submission as in 2 [2 verses of the 6,236 verses of the Quran] but have not attained Belief-B as in process 9 yet.
For the wandering Arabs to achieve the state of 'believe' proper, they will have to study the whole 6,236 verses of the Quran and comply with the imperative verses and as many of the other verses as possible.


Note I am only expressing Allah's words and intention as per the Quran.


Get the point?
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Old 02-27-2016, 02:35 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You got it wrong in the above.

Both 'submission' and 'believing' are mental acts not physical acts.
Thus your 'entering [action] a house' example is not valid.
Believing and submission is better known by those who do believe and submit every day, and not by those who do not believe or submit. Therefore, I am better qualified to explain my believing and my submission than you who is remote from both.

Here is how it works:

1. Suppose God sends a message to you (person A) through another person that God exists and you (person A) will be better off in your life and the life to come if you pray 5 times a day, give in charity for poor people, fast full day every day of the month of Ramdhan, do not steal, do not backbite anyone and keep yourself clean.
2. If you believe that God exists, and believe the person delivering the message, you will believe that the message is from God. This would be your belief.
3. You can declare this "belief" openly if you like.
4. You are now a believer but not yet submitter to God in reference to whatever is commanded in 1. above.
5. The process of submitting by you to God in reference to whatever is in 1. begins now.
6. The same message from God also reaches person B (the wandering Arab) through the same person.
7. The person B doesn't really believe that God exists and that the message is really from any God but the person just made it up.
8. To please the person, the person B does begin rather reluctantly to fast and keep himself clean and say that he is a believer.
9. Person B is submitting merely to the person delivering the message but not to God because faith in God has not entered in his heart yet. This submission is not to God but to a person. This submitting to a person is not Islam. Islam (Submission) must be only to God.
10. All powerful and aware God sends another message through the messenger to the person B not to say that he is a believer but just say that he is submitting, and that faith about God has not entered your heart yet.
11. It is the latter submmision by the person B mentioned in the verse and the real Submission (Islam) is by the person A (who is also a believer).

Get the point?
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Old 02-27-2016, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Believing and submission is better known by those who do believe and submit every day, and not by those who do not believe or submit. Therefore, I am better qualified to explain my believing and my submission than you who is remote from both.

Here is how it works:

1. Suppose God sends a message to you (person A) through another person that God exists and you (person A) will be better off in your life and the life to come if you pray 5 times a day, give in charity for poor people, fast full day every day of the month of Ramdhan, do not steal, do not backbite anyone and keep yourself clean.
2. If you believe that God exists, and believe the person delivering the message, you will believe that the message is from God. This would be your belief.
3. You can declare this "belief" openly if you like.
4. You are now a believer but not yet submitter to God in reference to whatever is commanded in 1. above.
5. The process of submitting by you to God in reference to whatever is in 1. begins now.
6. The same message from God also reaches person B (the wandering Arab) through the same person.
7. The person B doesn't really believe that God exists and that the message is really from any God but the person just made it up.
8. To please the person, the person B does begin rather reluctantly to fast and keep himself clean and say that he is a believer.
9. Person B is submitting merely to the person delivering the message but not to God because faith in God has not entered in his heart yet. This submission is not to God but to a person. This submitting to a person is not Islam. Islam (Submission) must be only to God.
10. All powerful and aware God sends another message through the messenger to the person B not to say that he is a believer but just say that he is submitting, and that faith about God has not entered your heart yet.
11. It is the latter submmision by the person B mentioned in the verse and the real Submission (Islam) is by the person A (who is also a believer).

Get the point?
Re point 2, IF I believe in God I do not necessary believe the person delivering the message. That person could be sent by Satan.
Therefore your above example do not work and is not applicable.


IF I believe in a God in the Islamic context, I would have to submit first before I start the process of 'believing-proper'.
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Old 02-28-2016, 07:15 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Re point 2, IF I believe in God I do not necessary believe the person delivering the message. That person could be sent by Satan.
Therefore your above example do not work and is not applicable.
How did you believe that God exists; because Satan told you? How did you believe about Satan?

Quote:
IF I believe in a God in the Islamic context, I would have to submit first before I start the process of 'believing-proper'.
Who are you going to submit first before believing?

It's like you saying that you would submit first because you believe in a God but that you won't start the believing process proper until after you have submitted to the God you believe in. Moderator cut: off topic

Last edited by june 7th; 02-29-2016 at 05:11 AM..
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