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Old 02-28-2016, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
How did you believe that God exists; because Satan told you? How did you believe about Satan?
Note I stated "IF."
There is no "how" once we assume with an "IF."

Quote:
Who are you going to submit first before believing?

It's like you saying that you would submit first because you believe in a God but that you won't start the believing process proper until after you have submitted to the God you believe in. If you keep saying that, you will never become a Muslim but quite likely end up in All Saints hospital.
IF like most theists, I will immediately 'submit' i.e. surrender to the will of God.


When a friend proselytizing to another and threaten him/her with forever and eternal will be burned in HELL, the person will believe his friend then submit to God to be saved with eternal life in Paradise.


If there is any serious degree of 'believe' it is believing in the friend and not believing in God per-se.
As for God, one must submit first by entering into a covenant with God and then begin the 'believing' process towards god-consciousness.


In the case of Islam my explanation is justified by 49:14 in the Quran.
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Old 02-29-2016, 05:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If there is any serious degree of 'believe' it is believing in the friend and not believing in God per-se.
As for God, one must submit first by entering into a covenant with God and then begin the 'believing' process towards god-consciousness.

In the case of Islam my explanation is justified by 49:14 in the Quran.
In Islam your position as non-believer will be justified according to 49:14 but not according to 2:208. In 49:14 you would be believing and submitting to your friend only but in 2:208 you would be believing Allah and submitting to Allah you already believe. Your position is completely wrong according to 2:208. You can never submit to anyone you think does not exist. There has to be something or someone you believe exists before you submit to it or Him.

You submitting to someone who you think does not even exist is senseless. But it makes sense to submit to someone you think (believe) exists.

Your submitting in 49:14 does not work in Islam but my submitting in 2:208 works perfectly fine.
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Old 02-29-2016, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
In Islam your position as non-believer will be justified according to 49:14 but not according to 2:208. In 49:14 you would be believing and submitting to your friend only but in 2:208 you would be believing Allah and submitting to Allah you already believe. Your position is completely wrong according to 2:208. You can never submit to anyone you think does not exist. There has to be something or someone you believe exists before you submit to it or Him.

You submitting to someone who you think does not even exist is senseless. But it makes sense to submit to someone you think (believe) exists.

Your submitting in 49:14 does not work in Islam but my submitting in 2:208 works perfectly fine.
Note I am interpreting Allah's intention re 49:14 in relation to all other related terms in prior chapters.
In 49:14 Allah stated one has to 'submit' first and then believe wherein the faith will enter one's heart.
This principle stated clearly 'submit' has to precede 'believe'.


In other cases where it seem 'believe' precede 'submit', that 'believe' is used in a very loose sense.


I have mentioned there are situations where one can be forced by circumstance and others to 'submit' without believing.


Note there is a difference between believing in someone existence and believing in his message/ideology are two different issues.
I believe you exists somewhere, but I do not believe in your views in this case.
Again this is a reflection of bad logic in committing the serious error of conflating two points of different senses, i.e. apples with oranges.
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Old 03-01-2016, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,282,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I am interpreting Allah's intention re 49:14 in relation to all other related terms in prior chapters.
In 49:14 Allah stated one has to 'submit' first and then believe wherein the faith will enter one's heart.
This principle stated clearly 'submit' has to precede 'believe'.


In other cases where it seem 'believe' precede 'submit', that 'believe' is used in a very loose sense.


I have mentioned there are situations where one can be forced by circumstance and others to 'submit' without believing.


Note there is a difference between believing in someone existence and believing in his message/ideology are two different issues.
I believe you exists somewhere, but I do not believe in your views in this case.
Again this is a reflection of bad logic in committing the serious error of conflating two points of different senses, i.e. apples with oranges.
If they are submitting to anything they have a belief. They may be being forced to submitOPne can not submit to Allaah(swt) and in that case they believe that who ever is coercing them has power to harm them if they do not submit. Or perhaps they are submitting for personal gains of some sort in which case they are believing they will gain something if they go through the motions.

There are people that go through the motions of submitting to a religion, political ideology etc because they believe it will please their spouse, or some other loved one.

Submission requires belief in something, but that belief may not be in what they are going through the motions of submitting to.

That was the case with those Bedouins they were submitting but not believing in Allaah(swt) they were submitting because they believed it would please Muhammad(saws)

One does not submit without believing in something first. Going through the motions of submitting to Allaah(swt) without belief is not submitting to Allaah(swt) it is submitting to somthing else such as the belief of pleasing a person or a group of people.

One can not submit to Allaah(swt) without believing in Him first. Going through the motions would be because of belief in something other than Allaah(swt) and not submission to Allaah(swt)


A man does not believe in Santa Claus but on Christmas eve he leaves cookies on the mantle for Santa, That is to pacify, please etc his children. He is performing an act of submission to Santa, but he is not submitting to Santa because he does not believe Santa exists.
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:18 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I am interpreting Allah's intention re 49:14 in relation to all other related terms in prior chapters.
In 49:14 Allah stated one has to 'submit' first and then believe wherein the faith will enter one's heart.
This principle stated clearly 'submit' has to precede 'believe'.
Allah does not say in the 49:14 that one has to submit first and then believe. Allah is not saying that but you are only interpreting the verse so.

Quote:
In other cases where it seem 'believe' precede 'submit', that 'believe' is used in a very loose sense.
Allah chooses His words perfectly and never "in a very loose sense". He chooses His words not only perfectly but in a way that those with loose sense due to closed mind will not understand and just argue senseless.
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Old 03-01-2016, 03:17 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Allah does not say in the 49:14 that one has to submit first and then believe. Allah is not saying that but you are only interpreting the verse so.

Allah chooses His words perfectly and never "in a very loose sense". He chooses His words not only perfectly but in a way that those with loose sense due to closed mind will not understand and just argue senseless.
Allah was pretty evil to be creating people "with loose sense due to closed mind will not understand" so he can do evil and endless torture to them for eternity. That shows a really psychotic psyche. I have NEVER wanted to do horrible and endless torture to others if they did not believe what I wanted them to believe. It is abhorrent to me to think of doing that to someone, yet allah wants to do it to BILLIONS of souls. UGLY.

So let's take a look at what Allah does:
Scroll to 17 minutes into it.

WARNING, EXTREMELY GRAPHIC VIDEO: ISIS burns hostage alive| Latest News Videos | Fox News (Warning: this is horrible and I could not watch it!)

Except that Allah does this to people FOREVER!!!!!! You don't die!

And it doesn't stop there! Just burning people alive isn't enough.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

This is how a monster thinks. It sickens me. ALL true Muslims think that non-believers deserve this. I do not think that Charles Manson deserves this! Is this really what Islam has created? Well over a BILLION people who are OK with this being done to the rest of mankind?

In my case, I can say that the whole idea of Islam is complete and evil nonsense. I would be betraying all my moral values (rationality, honesty, self-esteem, productivity, justice, integrity, independence of mind, courage, individual rights) to submit to Islam. And I would have to force myself to believe in utter nonsense, which I can't do any more than all Muslims can start believing in Scientology and the space aliens and thetans. So, because I have integrity to my moral values and cannot believe in what is total evil nonsense, Allah is going to do torture beyond imagination to me.

How sick is that?

I'll put my morality up against that of Muhammed any day.

If I did believe in allah, I would hate him.
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Old 03-01-2016, 04:39 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Allah was pretty evil to be creating people "with loose sense due to closed mind will not understand" so he can do evil and endless torture to them for eternity. That shows a really psychotic psyche. I have NEVER wanted to do horrible and endless torture to others if they did not believe what I wanted them to believe. It is abhorrent to me to think of doing that to someone, yet allah wants to do it to BILLIONS of souls. UGLY.
Take it up with Allah. If you think He is evil, tell your politicians to drop WMDs on Him. I won't be complaining. I promise you.
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Old 03-01-2016, 04:58 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Take it up with Allah. If you think He is evil, tell your politicians to drop WMDs on Him. I won't be complaining. I promise you.
The good news is that there isn't an allah. Just a perverted and long dead monster who is an example of pure evil that Muslims use as their perfect example of conduct. The consequence is that MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of lives have been lost. And many of those lives are Muslims who were slaughtered by other Muslims. Every day Muslims slaughter other Muslims in the name of Islam.
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Old 03-01-2016, 05:27 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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[quote=juju33312;43207469]The good news is that there isn't an allah. [quote] Good! No need to blame any non-existing Allah then.

Quote:
Just a perverted and long dead monster who is an example of pure evil that Muslims use as their perfect example of conduct.
Don't blame me for folowing him. I am not a monster.

Quote:
The consequence is that MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of lives have been lost. And many of those lives are Muslims who were slaughtered by other Muslims. Every day Muslims slaughter other Muslims in the name of Islam.
There lies your ignorance! How could both groups of Muslims be following the same example and Islam?

I am now sure that you are full of hate for all Muslims men. I am sorry if you have had bad experience of Muslim men.
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Old 03-01-2016, 06:59 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,510 times
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[quote=Khalif;43207763][quote=juju33312;43207469]The good news is that there isn't an allah.
Quote:
Good! No need to blame any non-existing Allah then.

Don't blame me for folowing him. I am not a monster.

There lies your ignorance! How could both groups of Muslims be following the same example and Islam?

I am now sure that you are full of hate for all Muslims men. I am sorry if you have had bad experience of Muslim men.
Good people do not follow monsters and think they are perfect examples of conduct.

Islam is so savage that Muslims find reasons to slaughter Muslims.

"100% (Muslim population) will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%

Of course, that's not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

'Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world and all of us against the infidel. Leon Uris, 'The Haj'
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