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Old 03-03-2016, 04:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note this Muslimah;
Nanny who beheaded Russian child says it was revenge for Putin's Syria strikes | Reuters

It has been reported this Muslimah was a mental patient.


However the question is: did she commit any sin as stipulated in the Quran?

22:39. Sanction [permission authorised] is given unto those [Muslims] who fight because they [Muslims] have been wronged [by infidels]; and Allah is indeed Able to give them [Muslims] victory;
2:216. Warfare is ordained for you [Muslims], though it is hateful unto you [Muslims]; but it may happen that ye [Muslims] hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.
The Quran sanction the killing of the kuffar if Islam or Muslims are threatened, so what this woman did was in compliance with the Quran.


Warfare and fight could be applicable to an individual and not necessary must be within an army.


Will she go to Paradise or Hell for this particular act in the name of Islam?
The child was not threatening her or Islam.

60:8 Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice?
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Old 03-03-2016, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The child was not threatening her or Islam.

60:8 Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice?
While it is not for us to judge the person, we can and should condemn the act. This person either never read the Qur'an or has no comprehension of it.

While she is from Muslim majority Uzbekistan she may not even be Muslim her name is Russian and not common for the Muslim residents of Uzbekistan who usually have Turkic names. Alo world wide it seems most Muslims approve of Russia's actions i Syria.
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The general principle is that one has to believe Allah before it is possible to submit to Allah. Both the believing and submitting is about and to Allah. Submitting without believing Allah is only to someone else than Allah.

No. You only understood it so. Who were they submitting to if they did not believe Allah?

It does not say believe 'proper' but just 'believe'. Just 'believe' is not 'believe improper' but 'believe proper'. One cannot strengthen his faith without believing in the first place. I think you are mistaking 'piety' and the level of piety with 'believe'. Piety (rightesness in religious sense rather than belief) develops with believing and practice. Practice reflects one's piety/goodness or evilness..

Not clear to you. You are misquoting Allah's words. Allah did not say to Muhammad to say to them, "they have only submitted " but had said to Muhammad to say to them to "say, they submit" rather than believe. Who were they submitting to, if they did not even believe Allah? That's what you are ignoring. The verse does not say that they were submitting to Allah.

In that case, you will also have to admit that just as they were ignorant of 'believing proper' and were not believing Allah, they were ignorant of 'submitting proper' and were not submitting to Alalh. They were even told at the end of the verse ss o what 'proper submission' is as compared to their 'submit'.

You can't have double standard when it comes to believing and submitting.

Your idea of submitting without believing is hypocrisy. Allah is not saying that they submitted to Allah. You are imagining it so. For surety
they believed not Allah and thus submit was not to Allah..

Exactly my point! 5 pillars or 20 pillars include proper believing as well as proper submitting to Allah. The first and the most fundamental pillar is believing. Submitting follows
Believing. Who would you submit to if you don't even believe Allah?

You like to learn from analogies, don't you? Well, here are a few:
You won't submit to Allah when you do not even believe Allah.
You will have to die first if you want to go to paradise.
You can't die unless you were born first.
You will never live in Submitualllaland because you don't even believe that such a country exists.

But you can't understand that submission in 2:208 is proper 'submit' to Allah and it is AFTER 'believing'. In 49:14, there isn't even loose 'believing' so no proper 'submit' to Allah without 'believe' first.

Allah does not explain in 49:14 as to what their 'submit' actually is but this is eplained in 2:208 as to the order of believing and submitting. 2:208 is explanation of 49:14 particularly of submission "if you obey Allah and His messenger". Obeying Allah and His messenger IS "believing and submitting" proper. No other way, my friend Continuum!

The Qur'an is expressed by Allah as"light" from Him 64:8, 4:174, 5:15, 7:157. You can read and try to understand the parable regarding His light in 24:35.

There would have been no Muslims left if they had managed to put out this light (9:32, 61:8). That would have been extinction of Muslims. Muslims exist because the Qur'an exists. Any attack on the Qur'an is in reality attack on Muslims.

It's called natural justice. The Qur'an is clear that if they live in peace with us, we must live in peace with them. There is no outright killing instructions with no limit or rules of engagement.

Natural means to do with nature. Nature to me is creation of God. The book is the book of guidance from God.

No. You misunderstand. Neither 49:14 is contradiction of 2:208 nor the 2:208 is contradiction of 49:14. You need to understand both together. The proper way to go about is in 2:208 and what the wandering Arabs were doing is only described in 49:14. The 2:208 is the correct way to do, and 49:14 is the wrong way to do as it does not include believing first. Only a "believer" can submit proper.
Note my original point in this thread;
'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?


My emphasis is not so much on the order of whether 'submit' or 'believe' comes first.
As I highlighted in the above thread 49:14 implies 'believe' proper is stronger and has more merit that 'submission.'


I summarize my points as follows;
1. There is an overlap between submit and believe.
2. Any sense of 'believe' preceding 'submission' is in the loose sense.
3. However 49:14 imply believe-proper is has more merit than submission-proper.
4. Submission proper is the first phase and believing-proper is the 2nd phase.


Note 49:14 again;
49:14 [Pickthall] The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


When the wandering Arabs say: We believe, obviously that is referring to the process of 'believing' proper in relation to Islam.
When Allah request Muhammad to reply; You do not believe yet, it is implied that wandering Arabs has not reach the stage of believing-proper. Allah did not 'say' believing-proper but it is implied this process of believing is a more serious level of believing.
This is why Allah implied the wandering Arabs has not 'believe' yet but they have merely submitted.

It is obvious from above, Allah implied there is a difference between the "believe" in 49:14 and the process of submission. The implication is Muslims should emphasize more on believing-proper rather than submission which is inherent at the point of the 'shahada' and affirmation of the covenant.


2:208 do not contradict 49:14 but note chronologically 49:14 is later than 2:208 and the contents in 49:14 and its meaning is obvious, i.e. the process of submission is lesser and prior to 'believing' in the sense it was convey in 49:14.


What you do not understand is there are many levels of 'believing'.
Let say there is level 1 to 10.
In 49:14 the 'believing' process is at level 3-10.
In the very looser meaning of 'believe' i.e. level 1, that could be the casual sense of 'believe' which is not a critical because as I had stated, one need to believe to submit.
A person can 'submit' based on various circumstances, i.e. by force, spontaneously, etc. without the need to believe.

Btw, it is obvious 'submitting' is confined to the lower part of the human brain which is very more primitive.
"Believing' from level 3 to 10 is activated within the higher brain of human_ness.


Note the structure of the brain below;







Submission [surrender, giving up] is trigger from the very low reptilian and mammalian layers of the brain which is very primitive.


Believing [3-10] is activated in the higher part of the human brain.



The above make sense with 49:14.
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Old 03-04-2016, 01:34 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The child was not threatening her or Islam.

60:8 Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice?
The Qur’an says: “When you meet the unbelievers, strike the necks” (47:4).
There is no qualification in the original verse.
Some translators will put '[war],' '[battle]' '[fight]' in parenthesis.


Note Allah stated "unbelievers" and the child was a child of a kafir of the kuffars and infidels.


60:8 is in relation to those who have driven Muslims from their homes. In one way, the Syrian Muslims were also driven from their homes. Note the millions of refugees all over Europe and the world.


In general, Allah sanction 'fight' against non-believers if they are a threat to Islam and Muslims.
Accordingly the Russians are killing Muslims [children and all] in Syria and attempting to destroy the Caliphate.
In this case, war [personal or by group] in retaliation can be in any other place wherever the kuffar are found.


I asked, will Allah punish this woman on Judgment Day and sent her to Hell?
On what basis?
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Old 03-04-2016, 02:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note my original point in this thread;
'Believe' Stronger than 'Submit'?


My emphasis is not so much on the order of whether 'submit' or 'believe' comes first.
As I highlighted in the above thread 49:14 implies 'believe' proper is stronger and has more merit that 'submission.'


I summarize my points as follows;
1. There is an overlap between submit and believe.
2. Any sense of 'believe' preceding 'submission' is in the loose sense.
3. However 49:14 imply believe-proper is has more merit than submission-proper.
4. Submission proper is the first phase and believing-proper is the 2nd phase.
T

Note 49:14 again;
49:14 [Pickthall] The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


When the wandering Arabs say: We believe, obviously that is referring to the process of 'believing' proper in relation to Islam.
When Allah request Muhammad to reply; You do not believe yet, it is implied that wandering Arabs has not reach the stage of believing-proper. Allah did not 'say' believing-proper but it is implied this process of believing is a more serious level of believing.
This is why Allah implied the wandering Arabs has not 'believe' yet but they have merely submitted.

It is obvious from above, Allah implied there is a difference between the "believe" in 49:14 and the process of submission. The implication is Muslims should emphasize more on believing-proper rather than submission which is inherent at the point of the 'shahada' and affirmation of the covenant.


2:208 do not contradict 49:14 but note chronologically 49:14 is later than 2:208 and the contents in 49:14 and its meaning is obvious, i.e. the process of submission is lesser and prior to 'believing' in the sense it was convey in 49:14.


What you do not understand is there are many levels of 'believing'.
Let say there is level 1 to 10.
In 49:14 the 'believing' process is at level 3-10.
In the very looser meaning of 'believe' i.e. level 1, that could be the casual sense of 'believe' which is not a critical because as I had stated, one need to believe to submit.
A person can 'submit' based on various circumstances, i.e. by force, spontaneously, etc. without the need to believe.

Btw, it is obvious 'submitting' is confined to the lower part of the human brain which is very more primitive.
"Believing' from level 3 to 10 is activated within the higher brain of human_ness.


Note the structure of the brain below


Submission [surrender, giving up] is trigger from the very low reptilian and mammalian layers of the brain which is very primitive.


Believing [3-10] is activated in the higher part of the human brain.



The above make sense with 49:14.
I have no intention of repeating the same thing again and again.

My last question is, "can anyone submit to Allah without believing Allah?"
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Old 03-04-2016, 03:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Qur’an says: “When you meet the unbelievers, strike the necks” (47:4).
There is no qualification in the original verse.
Some translators will put '[war],' '[battle]' '[fight]' in parenthesis.

Note Allah stated "unbelievers" and the child was a child of a kafir of the kuffars and infidels.
Continuum,

We can't take the verse out of its and the Qur'anic context. This is fundamental rule when studying the Qur'an. The unbelievers mentioned in this verse are not ALL unbelievers but only those who were in war at the time against Muslims. That is how I have always understood the verse. If you read the full verse, war is mentioned further down in the verse. You will even see in the verse that prisoners can be taken and either held or freed (with ransom payment) until war on Muslims (believer) is no more. This is clear indication in study of this verse that (a) war was on Muslims and (b) unbelievers even in that war were not all supposed to be killed by the believers or else there would be no need to take prisoners. There are, therefore, clear rules of engagement here in particular "until war is no more". In other words, when they stop attacking believers, the believers must stop too. The believers can't carry on striking the necks of the unbelievers. If the war had been from the believers (Muslims), there would be no need to stop until all unbelievers were killed.
Therefore, there is no outright command in the Qur'an to kill ALL unbelievers either then or in future (as now) but only those who physically are trying to kill believers as was the case at the time of this verse. This is why I have no problem living even next door to unbelievers if they are not trying to kill me.

Quote:
60:8 is in relation to those who have driven Muslims from their homes. In one way, the Syrian Muslims were also driven from their homes. Note the millions of refugees all over Europe and the world.
They are being driven out of their homes by Asaad, Russians, British and Europeans. They are all at it. Quite a few of these refugees are from Libya. When Libya was bombed by the British, and then British leader Cameron went to Libya and told those Libyans that Britain is going to help them, it ever arrived. When no help reached them, they decided to seek help in Europe.

Yes, those people are given permission to defend when war is made upon them. Even when defending, there are rules of engagement and limits set in the Quran as to how far one can go. There is no outright, no limit, killing of ALL unbelievers in the Qur'anic context. Any wrong interpretation whether by unbelievers or ignorant believers (terrorists) is due to either hate or ignorance and hate by these parties. Both are wrong.

Quote:
In general, Allah sanction 'fight' against non-believers if they are a threat to Islam and Muslims.
Accordingly the Russians are killing Muslims [children and all] in Syria and attempting to destroy the Caliphate.
In this case, war [personal or by group] in retaliation can be in any other place wherever the kuffar are found.
That is overstretching the commands. There is nothing "in general". That's where people twist the commands and call it "in general" every time to qualify their misuderstandinng. Every command leads to specific meaning if the Qur'an is studied properly.

Quote:
I asked, will Allah punish this woman on Judgment Day and sent her to Hell?
On what basis?
She had no basis to kill the child from Islamic point of view. Children are never labeled unbelievers in Islam. They are innocent until they clearly understand the differrnce between right and wrong and are able to take responsibility for their actions.

There is no allowance in Islam for what she did. In fact, her action is likely to have opposite effect to what she was trying to achieve. We simply do not know what would be the judgment of Allah. She will have to wait for that judgment. Signs are not good for her if she is sane.
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Old 03-04-2016, 08:45 AM
 
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"We can't take the verse out of its and the Qur'anic context. "

Be aware that Muslims rarely mention what context was dropped...I find that looking for the context in the Quran makes matters worse, not better.

Actually, Islam itself is taken completely out of context by all Muslims, context being the sum of cognitive elements conditioning the acquisition, validity or application of any item of human knowledge. One must never make any decisions, form any convictions or seek any values out of context, i.e., apart from or against the total, integrated sum of one’s knowledge.

But fundamentally, what Muslims want to do is use the excuse of 'dropping context', yet drop the most fundamental context!! The whole idea of Islam is nonsense. Yet Muslims want rational people to accept the idea that a sadistic god exists and picked a pedophile monster as his prophet. It does not get any more irrational than that. Yet this is what Muslims expect the rest of us to accept as the foundation....the fundamental context....of every argument.

So, I suggest that Muslims stop dropping THAT context. I do not accept your irrational nonsense.

So where do we go from there? The context is that Muhammed cooked up Islam. Every verse in the Quran points to that. Every one of Muhammed's actions points to that. Reality points to that. This is the widest context when it comes to Islam and I do not accept some mystical nonsense. Just as you would (hopefully) not argue with people who insist everyone accept their premise that the universe was created by eternal rabbits and go from there.

Conceptualization is NOT a subjective process. The content of concepts DOES NOT depend on an individual’s subjective (i.e., arbitrary) choice.

So, YOU stop dropping context!
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Old 03-04-2016, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
"We can't take the verse out of its and the Qur'anic context. "

Be aware that Muslims rarely mention what context was dropped...I find that looking for the context in the Quran makes matters worse, not better.

Actually, Islam itself is taken completely out of context by all Muslims, context being the sum of cognitive elements conditioning the acquisition, validity or application of any item of human knowledge. One must never make any decisions, form any convictions or seek any values out of context, i.e., apart from or against the total, integrated sum of one’s knowledge.

But fundamentally, what Muslims want to do is use the excuse of 'dropping context', yet drop the most fundamental context!! The whole idea of Islam is nonsense. Yet Muslims want rational people to accept the idea that a sadistic god exists and picked a pedophile monster as his prophet. It does not get any more irrational than that. Yet this is what Muslims expect the rest of us to accept as the foundation....the fundamental context....of every argument.

So, I suggest that Muslims stop dropping THAT context. I do not accept your irrational nonsense.

So where do we go from there? The context is that Muhammed cooked up Islam. Every verse in the Quran points to that. Every one of Muhammed's actions points to that. Reality points to that. This is the widest context when it comes to Islam and I do not accept some mystical nonsense. Just as you would (hopefully) not argue with people who insist everyone accept their premise that the universe was created by eternal rabbits and go from there.

Conceptualization is NOT a subjective process. The content of concepts DOES NOT depend on an individual’s subjective (i.e., arbitrary) choice.

So, YOU stop dropping context!
The entire context of the Qur'an is "There is only one God(swt) and only He is to be worshipped" every Surah has to be read with the concept of how it relates to that.

The entire Qur'an is summarized in 2 short Surat

1. Surah Al-Fatihah
In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin ( all that exists).
3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)
5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
6. Guide us to the Straight Way
7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger , nor of those who went astray

112. Surah Al-Ikhlaas or At-Tauhid (The Purity)
In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. Say (O Muhammad ()): "He is Allah, (the) One.
2. "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;
4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."

That is the context of the Qur'an and what every Surah is alluding to. If you understand a verse as commanding something different you are either misunderstanding or taking it out of context
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Old 03-04-2016, 11:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The entire context of the Qur'an is "There is only one God(swt) and only He is to be worshipped" every Surah has to be read with the concept of how it relates to that.

The entire Qur'an is summarized in 2 short Surat

1. Surah Al-Fatihah
In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
2. All the praises and thanks be to Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin ( all that exists).
3. The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
4. The Only Owner (and the Only Ruling Judge) of the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)
5. You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help (for each and everything).
6. Guide us to the Straight Way
7. The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger , nor of those who went astray

112. Surah Al-Ikhlaas or At-Tauhid (The Purity)
In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful

1. Say (O Muhammad ()): "He is Allah, (the) One.
2. "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;
4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."

That is the context of the Qur'an and what every Surah is alluding to. If you understand a verse as commanding something different you are either misunderstanding or taking it out of context
I am basing context on reality. Rational adults know if we are talking about Santa giving gifts to children that it is impossible and there is no Santa. Same with Islam. I do not accept your false premise of a sadistic, ignorant, supernatural monster creating the universe. The whole context of Islam is the scam that Muhammed pulled. If you fell for it, so be it. But don't expect me to accept your gullibility.
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Old 03-04-2016, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I am basing context on reality. Rational adults know if we are talking about Santa giving gifts to children that it is impossible and there is no Santa. Same with Islam. I do not accept your false premise of a sadistic, ignorant, supernatural monster creating the universe. The whole context of Islam is the scam that Muhammed pulled. If you fell for it, so be it. But don't expect me to accept your gullibility.
I have absolutely no intention or desire to change or convert you.

If you have read any of my other posts in different forums you would know I highly oppose the proselytizing of all religions and the proselytizing any form of Athism and believe proselytizing should be illegal

I will support with my entire being your right to not believe or to believe what you yourself find to be true. This is not idle talk I have done what I stand for and paid a high price for doing so.

I have put my life on the line defending that right for all Americans and almost lost my life in Vietnam. Which I would gladly do again if someone was threatening your freedoms or the freedoms of any American.
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