U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-18-2016, 01:46 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

I happen to read [chronologically] this chapter and bring forth the following verses for discussion.
in [] = mine.
71:21. Say [Muhammad]: Lo! I control not hurt nor benefit for you.
71:22. Say [Muhammad]: Lo! none can protect me from Allah, nor can I find any refuge beside Him.
71:23. (Mine [Muhammad] is) but conveyance (of the truth) from Allah, and His messages; and whoso [infidels] disobeyeth Allah and His messenger, lo! his [infidel] is fire of hell, wherein such dwell forever.
71:24. Till (the day) when they [infidels] shall behold that which they are promised (they may doubt); but then [on Judgement Day] they [infidels] will know for certain) who is weaker in allies and less in multitude.
In 71:23 Muhammad was requested to say, his responsibility is merely of conveyance of the truth from Allah and Allah's message;


In 71:21 Muhammad was to say, Muhammad has no benefit for the Jinns [also applicable to Muslims].
In this 71:21 I interpret "benefit" as Quranic and Islamic benefit which has nothing to do with his personal affairs.




Since Muhammad stated [as directed by Allah] he is merely a conveyor and has no benefit [Islam wise] for Muslims, his sayings as in the Sunnah [Ahadith] should not carry any authority or weightage.


Since the Ahadith do not have any divine authority they [Ahadith] should not be relied upon exclusively to derive Islamic laws as the pro-Sharia Muslims are doing.




Views?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-18-2016, 02:17 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
Reputation: 289
The chapter is not 71 but 72. You must be making mistakes in your notes.

There is no mention of jinns in these verses.

The point you are making is correct. Islamic law is only Allah's law. No Islamic law is from Muhammad only.

The Qur'an is Allah's Hadith. Allah had commanded through His Hadith (the Qur'an) not to believe any other hadith than His Hadith (45:6). Muslim who have not obeyed this command have gone astray.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2016, 02:42 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The chapter is not 71 but 72. You must be making mistakes in your notes.

There is no mention of jinns in these verses.

The point you are making is correct. Islamic law is only Allah's law. No Islamic law is from Muhammad only.

The Qur'an is Allah's Hadith. Allah had commanded through His Hadith (the Qur'an) not to believe any other hadith than His Hadith (45:6). Muslim who have not obeyed this command have gone astray.
Noted, it is 72. It was an initial typo error which I repeated for all the verses.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2016, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
One has to first understand who is speaking in Surah 72.

We are being told that some Djinn heard the Qur'an being recited. The surah relates what those Djinn told their fellow Djinn regarding what they heard.

Ayyats 2-28 have to be understood that the company of Djinn(Those that heard a recitation of the Qur'an) are explaining to all Djinn what the Qur'an is.


The Translators that put Say (Muhammad) into parenthesis are in error. It seems Picktall made this error with 72:20 in his translation when he wrote "Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner. - 72:20 (Picktall)"and others may have followed him down the primrose path. Although in the Translations I have read only Picktall has done so and in Surah 72 only in 72:20 and none of the other ayyats in Surah 72 I wonder if that may have been a typesetters error and not actually from Picktall.


Sujrah 72 is a revelation of what the Djinn said after hearing the Qur'an. It is not What Muhammad(saws) said or was told to say.

Surah 72, as far as I know, is the only Surah in which the name of the Surah (Djinn) is the topic of the Surah.

20-24 as translated by Assad, Ali and Picktall

Say: "I invoke my Sustainer alone, for I do not ascribe divinity to anyone beside Him." - 72:20 (Asad)

Say: "I do no more than invoke my Lord, and I join not with Him any (false god)." - 72:20 (Y. Ali)

Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner. - 72:20 (Picktall)


Say: "Verily, it is not in my power to cause you harm or to endow you with consciousness of what is right." - 72:21 (Asad)

Say: "It is not in my power to cause you harm, or to bring you to right conduct." - 72:21 (Y. Ali)

Say: Lo! I control not hurt nor benefit for you. - 72:21 (Picktall)

Say: "Verily, no one could ever protect me from God, nor could I ever find a place to hide from Him - 72:22 (Asad)

Say: "No one can deliver me from Allah (If I were to disobey Him), nor should I find refuge except in Him, - 72:22 (Y. Ali)

Say: Lo! none can protect me from Allah, nor can I find any refuge beside Him - 72:22 (Picktall)


if I should fail to convey [16] [to the world whatever illumination comes to me] from God and His messages." Now as for him who rebels against God and His Apostle - verily, the fire of hell awaits him, therein to abide beyond the count of time. [17] - 72:23 (Asad)

"Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages: for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger,- for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever." - 72:23 (Y. Ali)

(Mine is) but conveyance (of the truth) from Allah, and His messages; and whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger, lo! his is fire of hell, wherein such dwell for ever. - 72:23 (Picktall)

[Let them, then, wait] until the time when they behold that [doom] of which they were forewarned: [18] for then they will come to understand which [kind of man] is more helpless and counts for less! [19] - 72:24 (Asad)

At length, when they see (with their own eyes) that which they are promised,- then will they know who it is that is weakest in (his) helper and least important in point of numbers. - 72:24 (Y. Ali)

Till (the day) when they shall behold that which they are promised (they may doubt); but then they will know for certain) who is weaker in allies and less in multitude. - 72:24 (Picktall)


__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-18-2016, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
One has to first understand who is speaking in Surah 72.

We are being told that some Djinn heard the Qur'an being recited. The surah relates what those Djinn told their fellow Djinn regarding what they heard.

Ayyats 2-28 have to be understood that the company of Djinn(Those that heard a recitation of the Qur'an) are explaining to all Djinn what the Qur'an is.


The Translators that put Say (Muhammad) into parenthesis are in error. It seems Picktall made this error with 72:20 in his translation when he wrote "Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner. - 72:20 (Picktall)"and others may have followed him down the primrose path. Although in the Translations I have read only Picktall has done so and in Surah 72 only in 72:20 and none of the other ayyats in Surah 72 I wonder if that may have been a typesetters error and not actually from Picktall.


Sujrah 72 is a revelation of what the Djinn said after hearing the Qur'an. It is not What Muhammad(saws) said or was told to say.

Surah 72, as far as I know, is the only Surah in which the name of the Surah (Djinn) is the topic of the Surah.

20-24 as translated by Assad, Ali and Picktall

Say: "I invoke my Sustainer alone, for I do not ascribe divinity to anyone beside Him." - 72:20 (Asad)

Say: "I do no more than invoke my Lord, and I join not with Him any (false god)." - 72:20 (Y. Ali)

Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner. - 72:20 (Picktall)

Say: "Verily, it is not in my power to cause you harm or to endow you with consciousness of what is right." - 72:21 (Asad)

Say: "It is not in my power to cause you harm, or to bring you to right conduct." - 72:21 (Y. Ali)

Say: Lo! I control not hurt nor benefit for you. - 72:21 (Picktall)

Say: "Verily, no one could ever protect me from God, nor could I ever find a place to hide from Him - 72:22 (Asad)

Say: "No one can deliver me from Allah (If I were to disobey Him), nor should I find refuge except in Him, - 72:22 (Y. Ali)

Say: Lo! none can protect me from Allah, nor can I find any refuge beside Him - 72:22 (Picktall)

if I should fail to convey [16] [to the world whatever illumination comes to me] from God and His messages." Now as for him who rebels against God and His Apostle - verily, the fire of hell awaits him, therein to abide beyond the count of time. [17] - 72:23 (Asad)

"Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages: for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger,- for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever." - 72:23 (Y. Ali)

(Mine is) but conveyance (of the truth) from Allah, and His messages; and whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger, lo! his is fire of hell, wherein such dwell for ever. - 72:23 (Picktall)

[Let them, then, wait] until the time when they behold that [doom] of which they were forewarned: [18] for then they will come to understand which [kind of man] is more helpless and counts for less! [19] - 72:24 (Asad)

At length, when they see (with their own eyes) that which they are promised,- then will they know who it is that is weakest in (his) helper and least important in point of numbers. - 72:24 (Y. Ali)

Till (the day) when they shall behold that which they are promised (they may doubt); but then they will know for certain) who is weaker in allies and less in multitude. - 72:24 (Picktall)

I believe you have misinterpreted Chapter 72.


Note verse 72:1 that introduce the context of Chapter 72.
72:1. Say (O Muhammad): It is revealed unto me [Muhammad] that a company of the Jinn gave ear, and they [jinn] said: Lo! it is a marvellous Quran,
Certain commentary stated the following;

This chapter 72 records the conversion of certain genii., who overheard Muhammad reading the Quran while on his return from Tayif to Makkah.


Generally when there is a 'say' it in an indication for Muhammad to 'say'. That is why most of the translators inserted in parenthesis 'say [Muhammad].


This is why verse 72:21-24 implied reference to Muhammad as the conveyor and speaking and not other prophets.


Most of the 40++ English translators refer to Muhammad for 72:14.


I don't think you have room to counter my views which is similar to many other translators.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2016, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe you have misinterpreted Chapter 72.


Note verse 72:1 that introduce the context of Chapter 72.
72:1. Say (O Muhammad): It is revealed unto me [Muhammad] that a company of the Jinn gave ear, and they [jinn] said: Lo! it is a marvellous Quran,
Certain commentary stated the following;
This chapter 72 records the conversion of certain genii., who overheard Muhammad reading the Quran while on his return from Tayif to Makkah.


Generally when there is a 'say' it in an indication for Muhammad to 'say'. That is why most of the translators inserted in parenthesis 'say [Muhammad].


This is why verse 72:21-24 implied reference to Muhammad as the conveyor and speaking and not other prophets.


Most of the 40++ English translators refer to Muhammad for 72:14.


I don't think you have room to counter my views which is similar to many other translators.
Name one translator who refers to Muhammad in 72:14 Perhaps you meant 72:20

I have read more than a few English translations and a number in French, Spanish, German and Russian and find none of the non-English add Muhammad in Parenthesis in Surah 72.
Except the Wahhabi Nobel Quran and Picktall in 72:20 (Which I believe,was a typesetter's error as his mentor Yusuf Ali did not use such.)

The Nobel Qur'an By Muhammad Taqi al-Din al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan. that is touted by Saudi uses it in ayyats 72:19, 72:20, 72:22 and 72:25

Although the only other English translation approved by Saudi is the Yusuf Ali translation which does not use it. and Saudi does not approve Picktall which does use it in 72:20 (Possibly it is a typesetting error, and does not appear in all printings of Picktall)

I find that the vast majority of Translators do not use (Muhammad) in their translation of Surah 72 including Arberry (a non-Muslim) Quran - Surah Al-Jinn - Arabic, English Translation by Arthur John Arberry
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-19-2016, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Name one translator who refers to Muhammad in 72:14 Perhaps you meant 72:20

I have read more than a few English translations and a number in French, Spanish, German and Russian and find none of the non-English add Muhammad in Parenthesis in Surah 72.
Except the Wahhabi Nobel Quran and Picktall in 72:20 (Which I believe,was a typesetter's error as his mentor Yusuf Ali did not use such.)

The Nobel Qur'an By Muhammad Taqi al-Din al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan. that is touted by Saudi uses it in ayyats 72:19, 72:20, 72:22 and 72:25

Although the only other English translation approved by Saudi is the Yusuf Ali translation which does not use it. and Saudi does not approve Picktall which does use it in 72:20 (Possibly it is a typesetting error, and does not appear in all printings of Picktall)

I find that the vast majority of Translators do not use (Muhammad) in their translation of Surah 72 including Arberry (a non-Muslim) Quran - Surah Al-Jinn - Arabic, English Translation by Arthur John Arberry
72:14 was an error, it should be 72:20.


The others that refer to Muhammad [or Prophet] in 72:20 were Muhammad Sawar, Sahih International, Farouk Malik. Maududi, Bijan Moenian and others.


Word for Word, 72:20 read as

72:20 Say, "Only I call upon my Lord, and not I associate with Him anyone."
The Quran was specifically invoked to Muhammad.
Whenever there is a 'Say' it implied Allah expected Muhammad to say the statement that follows.
Therefore there is no error is translating it as 'Say [O Muhammad]'.
Do you dispute this?


In fact it make the Quran easier to read if we edit it to 'Say [O Muhammad] ..' with Muhammad in parenthesis.


In my Excel copy to make reading easier I would edit as;
72:20. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I [Muhammad] pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2016, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
72:14 was an error, it should be 72:20.


The others that refer to Muhammad [or Prophet] in 72:20 were Muhammad Sawar, Sahih International, Farouk Malik. Maududi, Bijan Moenian and others.


Word for Word, 72:20 read as
72:20 Say, "Only I call upon my Lord, and not I associate with Him anyone."
The Quran was specifically invoked to Muhammad.
Whenever there is a 'Say' it implied Allah expected Muhammad to say the statement that follows.
Therefore there is no error is translating it as 'Say [O Muhammad]'.
Do you dispute this?


In fact it make the Quran easier to read if we edit it to 'Say [O Muhammad] ..' with Muhammad in parenthesis.


In my Excel copy to make reading easier I would edit as;
72:20. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I [Muhammad] pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner.
No problem I thought you meant 72:20 but wanted to verify it.

There are some problems here:

Quote:
The others that refer to Muhammad [or Prophet] in 72:20 were Muhammad Sawar, Sahih International, Farouk Malik. Maududi, Bijan Moenian and others.
For starts Maududi never did an actual English Translation of the Qur'an he wrote a rather lengthy Tafsir (commentary) in Urdu. He wrote mosttly in Urdu and most of his books have not been translated into English. His introdutory Tafsir of each Surah is quite outstanding , but radical. He was the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood and very political. Although I differ with his political views his introduction Tafsir of each Surah is the best I have found. Although his books very expensive in English translations. I have the Hardbound Arabic, which is reasonably priced, I do not read or speak Urdu.. His introduction, English Translation, to each Surah can be found on line Syed Abu-Ala' Maududi's Chapter Introductions to the Qur'an

I did find his full Qur'an Commentary translated into English Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an

What we have is a translation of his commentary. here is his commentary of 72: 16-23
Quote:
[16-23] And15 (O Prophet, say: it has been revealed to me:) If the people had steadfastly pursued the right way, We would have given them abundant waters to drink16 that We might try them by that blessing.17 And he who turns away from his Lord's remembrance,18 his Lord shall punish him with a severe torment. And that the mosques are for Allah; therefore, do not call upon anyone else in them along with Allah.19 And that when the servant of Allah20 stood up to invoke Him, the people were ready to assault him. O Prophet, say; "I call upon my Lord alone, and I do not associate anyone with Him."21 Say, "I have no control over any harm or good for you." Say, "None can protect me from Allah, nor can I find any refuge apart from Him. My mission is only to convey what I receive from Him and His messages.22 Now whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger for him awaits the fire of Hell:. Such people shall dwell in it for ever.23[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
Keep in mind that is not a translation, it is Maududis commentary.

I am not certain if the "Sahih International" is a translation from the Arabic. I am under the impression it was an effort by 3 American Converts to update the English translations (Notably the Nobel Qur'an and Picktall) into modern English. But you are Correct they do us (Muhammad)

Muhammad Sawar is a Shii'ite I will agree it is valid to include the Shi'ite views when speaking of Islam and Muslims as nearly 15% of the World's Muslims are Shi'a I find the translation a bit confusing

Quote:
When the servant of Allah (Muhammad)preached (his message )
the jinn would all crowd around him. (72 :19)
(Muhammad) , say, "I worship only my Lord and do not consider
anyone as His partner." (72:20)
Say, "I do not possess any power to harm or
benefit you." (72 :21)
My impression is the Djinn are saying they heard Muhammad(saws) speaking.

Now to get to the heart of the matter, Here are 30 translations of 72: 20 Only 3 of them use ((Muhammad) or variations in their translation.


Abdel Haleem : Say, I pray to my Lord alone; I set up no partner with Him.

Ahmed Ali : Say: "Truly I call my Lord, and I do not share/make partners with Him anyone."

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira : Say: "I call on my Lord alone and I do not associate any one with Him."

Aisha Bewley : Say: I call only upon my Lord and do not associate anyone else with Him.

Ali Quli Qara'i : Say, I pray only to my Lord, and I do not ascribe any partner to Him.

Ali nal : Say: "I worship only my Lord and do not associate anyone as partner with Him."

Amatul Rahman Omar : Say, `I invoke only my Lord and I associate no one with Him (as His partner).'

Arthur John Arberry : Say: 'I call only upon my Lord, and I do not associate with Him anyone.

Bijan Moeinian : O Mohammad, say: I only worship God and do not associate any one with Him.

Edward Henry Palmer : Say, 'I only call upon my Lord, and I join no one with Him.'

Faridul Haque : Say (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him), I worship only Allah, and I do not ascribe any partner to Him.

George Sale : Say, verily I call upon my Lord only, and I associate no other god with Him.

Hamid S. Aziz : Say, "I only call upon my Lord, and I do not associate any one with Him."

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah : Say: 'I supplicate only to my Lord and I do not associate any with Him.


'John Medows Rodwell : SAY: I call only upon my Lord, and I join no other being with Him.

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali : Say, "Surely I invoke only my Lord, and I do not associate with Him anyone."

Abdul Majid Daryabadi : Say thou: I simply call upon Allah, and I associate not with Him any-one.

Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall : Say (unto them, O Muhammad): I pray unto Allah only, and ascribe unto Him no partner.

Maulana Muhammad Ali : Say: I only call upon my Lord, and associate naught with Him.

Muhammad Asad : Say: "I invoke my Sustainer alone, for I do not ascribe divinity to anyone beside Him."

Muhammad Sarwar : (Muhammad), say, "I worship only my Lord and do not consider anyone equal to Him".

Muhammad Taqi Usmani : Say, .I invoke my Lord, and do not associate anyone with Him.

[Al-Muntakhab] : Say to them: "I only invoke Allah, my Creator, with whom I incorporate none".

[Progressive Muslims] : Say: "I only call on my Lord, and I do not associate anyone with Him."

Shabbir Ahmed : Say, "I call unto my Lord alone and associate no one with Him (I heed no one against His Laws)."

Shakir : Say: I only call upon my Lord, and I do not associate any one with Him.

Sher Ali : Say, `I pray to my Lord only, and I associate no one with HIM.

Syed Vickar Ahamed : Say: "I do no more than call upon my Lord, and I do not join any (false gods) with Him."

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) : Say, [O Muammad], "I only invoke my Lord and do not associate with Him anyone."

Yusuf Ali : Say: "I do no more than invoke my Lord, and I join not with Him any (false god)."

BTW it is a very good site for finding Multiple translations and compare line by line For those interested it is:

Read Quran Online
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-20-2016, 11:52 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
No problem I thought you meant 72:20 but wanted to verify it.

There are some problems here:



For starts Maududi never did an actual English Translation of the Qur'an he wrote a rather lengthy Tafsir (commentary) in Urdu. He wrote mosttly in Urdu and most of his books have not been translated into English. His introdutory Tafsir of each Surah is quite outstanding , but radical. He was the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood and very political. Although I differ with his political views his introduction Tafsir of each Surah is the best I have found. Although his books very expensive in English translations. I have the Hardbound Arabic, which is reasonably priced, I do not read or speak Urdu.. His introduction, English Translation, to each Surah can be found on line Syed Abu-Ala' Maududi's Chapter Introductions to the Qur'an

I did find his full Qur'an Commentary translated into English Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an - The Meaning of the Qur'an

What we have is a translation of his commentary. here is his commentary of 72: 16-23 Keep in mind that is not a translation, it is Maududis commentary.

I am not certain if the "Sahih International" is a translation from the Arabic. I am under the impression it was an effort by 3 American Converts to update the English translations (Notably the Nobel Qur'an and Picktall) into modern English. But you are Correct they do us (Muhammad)

Muhammad Sawar is a Shii'ite I will agree it is valid to include the Shi'ite views when speaking of Islam and Muslims as nearly 15% of the World's Muslims are Shi'a I find the translation a bit confusing


My impression is the Djinn are saying they heard Muhammad(saws) speaking.

Now to get to the heart of the matter, Here are 30 translations of 72: 20 Only 3 of them use ((Muhammad) or variations in their translation.


<snip>

BTW it is a very good site for finding Multiple translations and compare line by line For those interested it is:

Read Quran Online
I had already stated Chapter 72 refer to the Djinn overhead Muhammad saying.


I picked up more than 3 that mentioned Muhammad or prophet in parenthesis.


But the main point is all [if not most] of these verses had the term "say" in 72:20.


Now I am claiming for the term "say" it implied Muhammad is speaking in accordance to the conventional rule of the Quran.
Therefore whether the translators put 'Muhammad' is parenthesis or not, the essence it still refer to Muhammad speaking that verse.
Putting 'Muhammad' in parenthesis would facilitate the reading easier and that is not an error as you have previously claimed.


Do you dispute the above?




Re Multiple translations.
I have been claiming from the start when I read the English translations with Pickthall as the main book but I cross reference to more than 40++ English translations [I wonder you remember this] if there are doubts in Pickthall's verses.
It is from this multiple basis together my wide range of eclectic knowledge of other fields that I am very confident I would not missed out any the critical elements of Islam even when I read the English translation instead of the Arabic version.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-21-2016, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I had already stated Chapter 72 refer to the Djinn overhead Muhammad saying.


I picked up more than 3 that mentioned Muhammad or prophet in parenthesis.


But the main point is all [if not most] of these verses had the term "say" in 72:20.


Now I am claiming for the term "say" it implied Muhammad is speaking in accordance to the conventional rule of the Quran.
Therefore whether the translators put 'Muhammad' is parenthesis or not, the essence it still refer to Muhammad speaking that verse.
Putting 'Muhammad' in parenthesis would facilitate the reading easier and that is not an error as you have previously claimed.


Do you dispute the above?




Re Multiple translations.
I have been claiming from the start when I read the English translations with Pickthall as the main book but I cross reference to more than 40++ English translations [I wonder you remember this] if there are doubts in Pickthall's verses.
It is from this multiple basis together my wide range of eclectic knowledge of other fields that I am very confident I would not missed out any the critical elements of Islam even when I read the English translation instead of the Arabic version.
I have heard you say several rtimes that you cross-reference 40+ translations. but I still find your views to be considerably differenrt from what most Muslims believe. I do not question your having done much research, but I find your understanding to be much different from how Muslims actually understand the Qur'an. I do appreciate your views and opinions, but they are not what Muslims understand or believe.

to understand what Muslims believe and how they interpret the Qur'an you will have to ask individual Muslims.

If your intent is to tell us how to understand the Qur'an, you will have a hard time convincing most of us that your interpretation is accurate.

You will find that very few if any Muslims interpret any ayyats as promoting or condoning hatred and violence.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top