U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-07-2016, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is obvious that you do no get it.
That is your opinion which is based on reading the Quran 6-7 times ONLY and worst a believer is be default is based on psychological and emotional biasness, thus can never give an objective view.
I strongly suggest you read the whole Quran without break at least 50 times and each time with a different emphasis and focus on different subjects.
I have read the Quran more than 50 times without break.


Quote:
The Jews and Christians themselves will tell you that they are not Muslim. In fact, according to my understanding of the meanings of the word "Muslim", anyone who believes in God, obeys His commands and does good deeds is a Muslim. Abraham was a Muslim and of course not Muhammadan.
My definition of a Muslim [minimal] is one who has entered [explicitly or implicitly] into a covenant with Allah in accordance to the terms and conditions of the Quran [via other prophets or Muhammad-latest].


I agree Abraham was a 'Muslim' in accordance to the above definition as he entered into a covenant with Allah based on the Quran-of-Old sent by Allah during his time.

Quote:
The verses you quoted above are teaching me not to change the words of the Qur'an and those who do, pardon them rather than kill them. The verses do not say that Jews and Christians have false religion but it is clear that it came from Allah. The verses do not condemn all Jews but only the wrong doers. The same way Muslims are condermned for doing wrong. Muslims do not have any license from Allah that they will not be judged the same way for doing wrong. If we break the terms of the covenant, we too will be codemned. That is the lesson I learn.
From the verses I quoted and in the context of the whole Quran, SOME Jews and Christians did change the words of the original Quran sent by Allah.
Then they passed on the "changed holy texts", i.e. corrupted versions to the future generations.
When these "changed holy texts" i.e. corrupted versions, i.e. Torah and Gospels were put into writing, they were the corrupted.


No one know which was the full original Quran-of-old sent by Allah.
From the point of view to the current Quran:
1. the current Torah and Gospel in written form is a corrupted version of the Quran-of-old.
2. since it is they are corrupted version of the Quran-of-old, the Jews and Christian cannot be "Muslim" as Abraham was Muslim.


From the point of view of the Jews and Christians, they would never agree Abraham was a Muslim.

Nobody has any evidence of the Quran-of-old sent by Allah to previous prophets.
The only possible evidence are the current Torah and Gospels in writing and they do not reconcile with Muhammad's Quran in totality.

Quote:
As for the previous revelations from Allah, we do believe the truths in those messages. That is why every male baby is circumcised. This commmad is not in the Qur'an but in the revelation before the Qur'an. We also believe that Jews and Christians too would be in paradise, not only Muslims. Whoever believes and does good deeds is going to paradise is the theme in the Qur'an.
Where the "previous revelations" are similarities with those of the current Quran, Muslim can accept them, e.g. no pork, and others.


Circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran by Allah, therefore IN PRINCIPLE and LOGICALLY it cannot be Islamic.
Circumcision is a cultural, social and health element adopted by Muslims. Many non-Muslims parent circumcise their children for health reasons but in this case, circumcision do not meant they are Muslims or Jews.
Therefore Islamic groups may impose circumcision for male children but it has no merit point with Allah on Judgment Day for the individual.


It is none of the Muslims' business to speak on behalf of Christians, Jews or others regarding paradise, hell etc.. All Muslims must do is to comply with the terms [in Quran] of the covenant they enter into with Allah and they should mind their own business.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-09-2016, 03:14 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is your opinion which is based on reading the Quran 6-7 times ONLY and worst a believer is be default is based on psychological and emotional biasness, thus can never give an objective view.
I strongly suggest you read the whole Quran without break at least 50 times and each time with a different emphasis and focus on different subjects.
I have read the Quran more than 50 times without break.
Impossibl! You would be bored stiff in no time and yawning even after only few chapters.

Quote:
My definition of a Muslim [minimal] is one who has entered [explicitly or implicitly] into a covenant with Allah in accordance to the terms and conditions of the Quran [via other prophets or Muhammad-latest].
That is of course your definnition of Muslim but not the real definition according to the Qur'an. According to the Qur'an, followers of Abraham were Muslims. The Qur'an hadn't yet been revealed.

Quote:
I agree Abraham was a 'Muslim' in accordance to the above definition as he entered into a covenant with Allah based on the Quran-of-Old sent by Allah during his time.
The scriptures of Abraham were not called "Al Qur'an".

Quote:
From the verses I quoted and in the context of the whole Quran, SOME Jews and Christians did change the words of the original Quran sent by Allah.
How do you know that? The Qur'an mentions Jews changing the words of the Qur'an as it was being revealed. It does not say that they changed the words of the Torah.

Quote:
Then they passed on the "changed holy texts", i.e. corrupted versions to the future generations.
When these "changed holy texts" i.e. corrupted versions, i.e. Torah and Gospels were put into writing, they were the corrupted.
Did you make it up from yourself or did you read it in the Qur'an?
2:40-41 O children of Israel! Call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to the covenant with Me. I will fulfill covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid. And believe in what I have revealed, confirming that which is with you , and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My Ayat; and Me alone should you fear.

Quote:
No one know which was the full original Quran-of-old sent by Allah.
From the point of view to the current Quran:
1. the current Torah and Gospel in written form is a corrupted version of the Quran-of-old.
2. since it is they are corrupted version of the Quran-of-old, the Jews and Christian cannot be "Muslim" as Abraham was Muslim.
Abraham was Muslim because he obeyed Allah. No need to go any further than that.

Quote:
From the point of view of the Jews and Christians, they would never agree Abraham was a Muslim.
It's because they do not understand the Arabic word "muslim". They believe (wrongly of course) that it means "Muhammadan".

Quote:
Nobody has any evidence of the Quran-of-old sent by Allah to previous prophets.
The only possible evidence are the current Torah and Gospels in writing and they do not reconcile with Muhammad's Quran in totality.
Give some examples from the Qur'an to show it is so!

[QUUOTE]Where the "previous revelations" are similarities with those of the current Quran, Muslim can accept them, e.g. no pork, and others.[/quote] Torah was for the very first large group of people who were believers. They (the priestly class) were trusted to teach it to the other people (infidels as well as the rest of Israelites). It was mainly for the Israelites (the only believers at the time). The Qur'an is for ALL.

Quote:
Circumcision is not mentioned in the Quran by Allah, therefore IN PRINCIPLE and LOGICALLY it cannot be Islamic.
Circumcision is a cultural, social and health element adopted by Muslims. Many non-Muslims parent circumcise their children for health reasons but in this case, circumcision do not meant they are Muslims or Jews.
Therefore Islamic groups may impose circumcision for male children but it has no merit point with Allah on Judgment Day for the individual.
It was commanded to Abraham to be carried on in his generations and in people associated to his household. As obeyig Allah was his religion, the practice of circumcision has carried on ever since then. It is a sign of covenant with Allah to obey Him.

Quote:
It is none of the Muslims' business to speak on behalf of Christians, Jews or others regarding paradise, hell etc.. All Muslims must do is to comply with the terms [in Quran] of the covenant they enter into with Allah and they should mind their own business.
I speak only that which is in the Qur'an or in the previous revelations from Allah.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2016, 04:34 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Impossibl! You would be bored stiff in no time and yawning even after only few chapters.
For the sake of research and the reinforcement of the truth [good or evil] one must read the Quran at least 50 times.
In fact I intend to read the Quran another 30 times [I don't like it] to get a better grasp of the points so that I can present my points more effectively.
I will not get bored because I read with detailed and complex analyzes using the relevant computer program.

Quote:
That is of course your definnition of Muslim but not the real definition according to the Qur'an. According to the Qur'an, followers of Abraham were Muslims. The Qur'an hadn't yet been revealed.
It is not "my" definition but one that is in accordance to the ethos of the Quran after I have read it more than 50 times.
After reading more than 50 times, I will gather there is the concept of the covenant, parties to the covenant, obligations of each party to the covenant, terms and conditions of the covenant. I know they are there. My problem at present to pick all the relevant verses at one go to present to you.



Quote:
The scriptures of Abraham were not called "Al Qur'an".
IF "Al Qur'an" differentiate the Quran of Muhammad [610-632AD] via Gabriel, then we can use that term. But I don't think so. Most will understand "Al Quran" as the present Quran from Muhammad.
Thus Quran-of-Old is a useful term to differentiate from the Quran-of-the-Present.

Quote:
How do you know that? The Qur'an mentions Jews changing the words of the Qur'an as it was being revealed. It does not say that they changed the words of the Torah.
Initially I did not get it but I know after reading the Quran more than 50 times.

Quote:
Did you make it up from yourself or did you read it in the Qur'an?
2:40-41 O children of Israel! Call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to the covenant with Me. I will fulfill covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid. And believe in what I have revealed, confirming that which is with you , and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My Ayat; and Me alone should you fear.
'Which is with you' refer to the Quran-of-Old that was not corrupted then.
It cannot refer the present Torah and Gospel used by the present Jews and Christians respectively.

I did read in the Quran which mentioned in many verses the Jews and Christians has changed the words of Allah.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2016, 05:05 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Abraham was Muslim because he obeyed Allah. No need to go any further than that.
The principle is Abraham was a Muslim because the had entered [explicitly and implicitly] into a covenant with Allah. Thereafter he followed with believe, obey, and whatever is necessary in accordance to the terms and condition of the covenant.

Quote:
It's because they do not understand the Arabic word "muslim". They believe (wrongly of course) that it means "Muhammadan".
That Abraham was a "Muslim" is merely a claim in the Quran but such a claim is conditioned by doubts, i.e.


1. The Quran plagiarized the stories from the Bible.
2. There is no God that exists as real.
3. The Quran was authored by people.



Quote:
Give some examples from the Qur'an to show it is so!
This irrelevant to the points I raised.

Quote:
It was commanded to Abraham to be carried on in his generations and in people associated to his household. As obeyig Allah was his religion, the practice of circumcision has carried on ever since then. It is a sign of covenant with Allah to obey Him.
But other Muslims at present are not people who are associated to his household.
For example, you as a Muslim is not a direct ancestor of Abraham, therefore there is no need to you and other Muslims to be circumcised as an Islamic rule because it is not ordained in the Quran.


In accordance to the Quran, those Muslims who are not circumcised will not be penalized on Judgment Day by Allah.
Do you dispute this?
Can you judge for Allah?

Quote:
I speak only that which is in the Qur'an or in the previous revelations from Allah.
I agree Muslims and even non-Muslims can speak only that which is in the Quran.


As for the previous revelations, there are no signs of them for you to refer to. Therefore you cannot speak that which in the Quran[s]-of-Old.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2016, 10:08 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
For the sake of research and the reinforcement of the truth [good or evil] one must read the Quran at least 50 times.
In fact I intend to read the Quran another 30 times [I don't like it] to get a better grasp of the points so that I can present my points more effectively.
I will not get bored because I read with detailed and complex analyzes using the relevant computer program.
You will get bored if you read another 30 times without break.

Quote:
IF "Al Qur'an" differentiate the Quran of Muhammad [610-632AD] via Gabriel, then we can use that term. But I don't think so. Most will understand "Al Quran" as the present Quran from Muhammad.
Thus Quran-of-Old is a useful term to differentiate from the Quran-of-the-Present.
There is only one Qur'an.

Quote:
I did read in the Quran which mentioned in many verses the Jews and Christians has changed the words of Allah.
But you did not understand that:
Allah's words can't be changed
they were changing the words with their mouth
it wasn't the Torah but the words of the revealed Qur'an before it was written down
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2016, 10:37 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The principle is Abraham was a Muslim because the had entered [explicitly and implicitly] into a covenant with Allah. Thereafter he followed with believe, obey, and whatever is necessary in accordance to the terms and condition of the covenant.
He had already believed before entering the covenant. According to the covenant terms, he was to walk before God. This means he was to obey God by obeying His commands. He became Muslim because of obeying the commands

Quote:
That Abraham was a "Muslim" is merely a claim in the Quran but such a claim is conditioned by doubts, i.e.

1. The Quran plagiarized the stories from the Bible.
2. There is no God that exists as real.
3. The Quran was authored by people.
There is no medicine in circulation yet that can cure someone's doubt.

[QUOTEG]But other Muslims at present are not people who are associated to his household.
For example, you as a Muslim is not a direct ancestor of Abraham, therefore there is no need to you and other Muslims to be circumcised as an Islamic rule because it is not ordained in the Quran.[/quote]Anyone who believes and obeys God is of Abraham's household even if spiritually. All my ancestors and Quraish were circumcised. They must have been associated to his household. Muhammad did not order circumcision nor it is one of the commands in the Qur'an. It is merely "sign" ("token") of the Abraham's covenant.

Quote:
In accordance to the Quran, those Muslims who are not circumcised will not be penalized on Judgment Day by Allah.
Do you dispute this?
The Qur'an is silent on circumcision. You are exposing here lack of your Qur'anic knowledge.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2016, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The principle is Abraham was a Muslim because the had entered [explicitly and implicitly] into a covenant with Allah. Thereafter he followed with believe, obey, and whatever is necessary in accordance to the terms and condition of the covenant.

That Abraham was a "Muslim" is merely a claim in the Quran but such a claim is conditioned by doubts, i.e.


1. The Quran plagiarized the stories from the Bible.
2. There is no God that exists as real.
3. The Quran was authored by people.



This irrelevant to the points I raised.

But other Muslims at present are not people who are associated to his household.
For example, you as a Muslim is not a direct ancestor of Abraham, therefore there is no need to you and other Muslims to be circumcised as an Islamic rule because it is not ordained in the Quran.


In accordance to the Quran, those Muslims who are not circumcised will not be penalized on Judgment Day by Allah.
Do you dispute this?
Can you judge for Allah?


I agree Muslims and even non-Muslims can speak only that which is in the Quran.


As for the previous revelations, there are no signs of them for you to refer to. Therefore you cannot speak that which in the Quran[s]-of-Old.
Just addressing this part

Quote:
But other Muslims at present are not people who are associated to his household.
For example, you as a Muslim is not a direct ancestor of Abraham, therefore there is no need to you and other Muslims to be circumcised as an Islamic rule because it is not ordained in the Quran.


In accordance to the Quran, those Muslims who are not circumcised will not be penalized on Judgment Day by Allah.
Do you dispute this?
Can you judge for Allah?
For that matter many perhaps most Jews are not descended from Abraham. Many of the Ashkenazim from Europe are descended from Russian converts. You also have converts in Judaism from every race and nationality. You do have Muslims that are descended from Abraham, if you can believe the Bible and Torah the Arabs are descended from Abraham and Hagar.

It is true that Muslims will not be penalized for not being circumcised, but they will be rewarded for doing so.Many things that are Sunnah are not Fiqh (Required by command) but rewards are granted for doing them.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2016, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
He had already believed before entering the covenant. According to the covenant terms, he was to walk before God. This means he was to obey God by obeying His commands. He became Muslim because of obeying the commands.
As I had argued 'believe' is a very loose term. One can believe to submit, believe to enter into a covenant, believe to worship, etc.


Obeying commands is not a certainty of becoming a Muslim.
If I decide not to drink alcohol, I can claim I am obeying the command of Allah as in the Quran. But that is only one command and one or an incomplete set of commands cannot made me a Muslim.
For one to be a Muslim, one must entered [explicitly or implicitly] into a covenant with Allah where it is implied the Muslims must promise to obey all the commands of Allah appropriately as in the Quran. Thus the Muslim promised in the covenant to obey all commands [where appropriately] but the Muslim do not have to obey them all at the same time but over his life time.

Quote:
There is no medicine in circulation yet that can cure someone's doubt.
Irrelevant to the point.

[QUOTEG]But other Muslims at present are not people who are associated to his household.
For example, you as a Muslim is not a direct ancestor of Abraham, therefore there is no need to you and other Muslims to be circumcised as an Islamic rule because it is not ordained in the Quran.[/quote]
Quote:
Anyone who believes and obeys God is of Abraham's household even if spiritually. All my ancestors and Quraish were circumcised. They must have been associated to his household. Muhammad did not order circumcision nor it is one of the commands in the Qur'an. It is merely "sign" ("token") of the Abraham's covenant.
The general Islamic rule is, if it is not in the Quran it cannot be Islamic.
I maintain circumcision is not Islamic per-se but adopted by Muslims for its health element and not spiritual element. What has circumcision to do with spirituality directly?

Quote:
The Qur'an is silent on circumcision. You are exposing here lack of your Qur'anic knowledge.
You misunderstood my point which was rather indirect.
What I meant was;
1. The Quran did not mention circumcision at all. [I stated this earlier].
2. Thus Muslims cannot be penalized for anything element that is not mentioned in the Quran.


Allah cannot punish Muslims who were not circumcised because Allah did not ordain such a stipulation in the Quran, i.e. the words of Allah.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2016, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Just addressing this part

For that matter many perhaps most Jews are not descended from Abraham. Many of the Ashkenazim from Europe are descended from Russian converts. You also have converts in Judaism from every race and nationality. You do have Muslims that are descended from Abraham, if you can believe the Bible and Torah the Arabs are descended from Abraham and Hagar.

It is true that Muslims will not be penalized for not being circumcised, but they will be rewarded for doing so.Many things that are Sunnah are not Fiqh (Required by command) but rewards are granted for doing them.
Because circumcision is not stipulated in the Quran, such an act will not be deliberated on Judgment Day by Allah at all.
Circumcision is merely for health reasons on Earth.


Circumcision is a decision my humans which desecrated the parts of God's perfected creations. Circumcision is an alteration of God's creation. Note this
verse 4:119.


4:119. And surely I [Satan] will lead them astray, and surely I will arouse desires in them, and surely I [Satan] will command them and they [infidels] will cut the cattle's ears, and surely I [Satan] will command them and they [infidels] will change [alter] Allah's creation [tatoo and body modifications, revelations?]. Whoso [infidel] chooseth Satan for a patron instead of Allah is verily a loser and his [infidel] loss is manifest.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-10-2016, 12:46 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Because circumcision is not stipulated in the Quran, such an act will not be deliberated on Judgment Day by Allah at all.
Circumcision is merely for health reasons on Earth.
It is commanded in the previous revelation (book) and we are required to believe the book to be from Allah. Obeying any command in that book is still Islamic as long as it does not resilt in disobeying any command in the Qur'an.

Not every circumcision is for health reasons only. Most are for religious reason.

Quote:
Circumcision is a decision my humans which desecrated the parts of God's perfected creations. Circumcision is an alteration of God's creation. Note this
verse 4:119.

4:119. And surely I [Satan] will lead them astray, and surely I will arouse desires in them, and surely I [Satan] will command them and they [infidels] will cut the cattle's ears, and surely I [Satan] will command them and they [infidels] will change [alter] Allah's creation [tatoo and body modifications, revelations?]. Whoso [infidel] chooseth Satan for a patron instead of Allah is verily a loser and his [infidel] loss is manifest.
It was Allah who had commanded Abraham to circumcise himself and the men in his household. It wasn't Satan. 4:119 has nothing to do with circumcision. It means many other things that are Allah's creation such as damaging environment, breast implants, cutting down trees and facial alterations. Circumcision does not make one imperfect. It is merely an outward sign that one has entered into covenant with Allah. I does not mean that if one is not circumcised, he is not obeying Allah and has not accepted the terms of the covenant. Many Muslims argue, the same way as you are here, that shaving is altering Allah's creation. Yet they too trim their beards. Why don't they leave them to keep growing?

The main thing that keeps one within the covenant is "obeying Allah" which means actions throughout one's life complying with the commands. Many Muslims who are circumcised do not obey the commands. They will be judged on their actions rather than mere sign of their circumcision.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top