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Old 03-10-2016, 12:59 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is commanded in the previous revelation (book) and we are required to believe the book to be from Allah. Obeying any command in that book is still Islamic as long as it does not resilt in disobeying any command in the Qur'an.
1. The present Quran is supposed to confirm what is in the older revelations.
2. The present Torah is claimed by the Quran to be corrupted.
3. There is nothing in the present Quran to confirm the need for circumcision.


4. You cannot even infer that such a command is in the present Jewish Torah because of point 2 above.
5. There are no available original Torah from Allah for you to confirm with the present Quran.



Quote:
Not every circumcision is for health reasons only. Most are for religious reason.
The actual tradition of circumcision was inherently for health reason. The fact that it was included in some religious text [present Jewish Torah] does not remove the health factor.
This the same for not eating pork and drinking alcohol.
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Old 03-10-2016, 01:14 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I had argued 'believe' is a very loose term. One can believe to submit, believe to enter into a covenant, believe to worship, etc.
Believe is not a loose term as the whole Eeman and being conscious of Allah depends on it. It is highlighted in 2:285.

Quote:
Obeying commands is not a certainty of becoming a Muslim.
It is the best proof of being a Muslim.

Quote:
If I decide not to drink alcohol, I can claim I am obeying the command of Allah as in the Quran. But that is only one command and one or an incomplete set of commands cannot made me a Muslim.
In that case, you are not submitting to Allah because you do not believe Allah but just pretending to submit in your claim. Such submission without believe is not submission to Allah but pretence to deceive Allah.

Quote:
For one to be a Muslim, one must entered [explicitly or implicitly] into a covenant with Allah where it is implied the Muslims must promise to obey all the commands of Allah appropriately as in the Quran. Thus the Muslim promised in the covenant to obey all commands [where appropriately] but the Muslim do not have to obey them all at the same time but over his life time.
Promise does not make one Muslim but fulfilling the promise. Promise is a sign of you being a believer. For me, each one of us is a human being all the time. But one is ALSO a Muslim during each action that is on purpose due to the commands from Allah. If any action of a human being is against the commands from Allah, that human being is still human being but not a Muslim DURING that particular action. He has broken the covenant he had entered into with Allah and has not obeyed Allah during that action.
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Old 03-10-2016, 01:26 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It was Allah who had commanded Abraham to circumcise himself and the men in his household. It wasn't Satan. 4:119 has nothing to do with circumcision. It means many other things that are Allah's creation such as damaging environment, breast implants, cutting down trees and facial alterations. Circumcision does not make one imperfect. It is merely an outward sign that one has entered into covenant with Allah. I does not mean that if one is not circumcised, he is not obeying Allah and has not accepted the terms of the covenant. Many Muslims argue, the same way as you are here, that shaving is altering Allah's creation. Yet they too trim their beards. Why don't they leave them to keep growing?
This logic is according to the Quran.


1. All alterations of Allah's creation is from Satan -4:119
2. Circumcision is an alteration of Allah's creation -the physical body.
3. Therefore circumcision is from Satan


The above logic is very rational and objective in accordance to the words of Allah in the final Quran.
How would you dispute the above logic based on the Quran?




Your other explanations are merely twisting an turning to deflect the issue.
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Old 03-10-2016, 01:50 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Believe is not a loose term as the whole Eeman and being conscious of Allah depends on it. It is highlighted in 2:285.
'Believe' in general is a very loose term.
You can make it specific with your own conditions.
It is very wrong of you to insist, believe precede submit absolutely.
As I had argued one can believe to submit, but that is a very loose version of 'believe'.
One can also believe to worship and believe [loose] to believe [submit]

Quote:
It is the best proof of being a Muslim.
In that case, you are not submitting to Allah because you do not believe Allah but just pretending to submit in your claim. Such submission without believe is not submission to Allah but pretence to deceive Allah.
You insist 'obeying' is a condition of being a Muslim.
I disagree and demonstrate why your claim is absurd.

Quote:
Promise does not make one Muslim but fulfilling the promise. Promise is a sign of you being a believer.
You don't seem to get the point.


Here is one analogy:
When you sign the marriage certificate [agreement] with your wife, you are making promises [vows] then but have not fulfilled the promises yet.
Now even if you have not fulfill the promises, you are officially a husband.
So you are a husband while you have not fulfill your promises yet.


Similarly for a Muslim, s/he is a Muslim once s/he has entered into a covenant.
Therefore there is no need for one to fulfill promises to Allah to be a Muslim.
One will be a better and truer Muslim as one progresses as one fulfil more promises in time.


Quote:
For me, each one of us is a human being all the time. But one is ALSO a Muslim during each action that is on purpose due to the commands from Allah. If any action of a human being is against the commands from Allah, that human being is still human being but not a Muslim DURING that particular action. He has broken the covenant he had entered into with Allah and has not obeyed Allah during that action.
This is a wrong view and ridiculous.


1. Up to 2016 March 10 - 12.00 Noon:
Suppose a Muslim who is 90 years old and has done the very best [better than the majority] as a Muslim. He has fulfill the expectation of the 5 pillars fully, fought and strive for the cause of Allah, etc. Say he is a First Class Honor Muslim.


2. 2016 March 10 at 12.02 Noon:
He consciously and deliberately took a sip of alcohol, [ate a piece of pork or other sin].
As you insist this is against the command of Allah thus he is no more a Muslim.


3. Up to 2016 March 10 - 12:03 Noon:
He suddenly died.


4. By your logic this old man would have died as a non-Muslim and thus must go to hell and punished like all other non-Muslims.
What about his 90 years of being a good Muslims?


The above demonstrate your view is ridiculous. I think it is because you only read the Quran 6-7 times.


Here is the better view based on reading the Quran more than 50 times:
Once a person has entered into a covenant with Allah, he is a Muslim.
If a Muslim commit a sin, he is still a Muslim and will be punished accordingly on Judgment Day.


The only way a Muslim become a non-Muslim is when s/he commit an unpardonable sin or voluntarily terminate the covenant with Allah.
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Old 03-10-2016, 04:00 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
'Believe' in general is a very loose term.
You can make it specific with your own conditions.
It is very wrong of you to insist, believe precede submit absolutely.
As I had argued one can believe to submit, but that is a very loose version of 'believe'.
One can also believe to worship and believe [loose] to believe [submit]
We are not talking about a loose term even you use I am talking in terms of Islsm. Believe is described in 2:285. Submitting folowes this Believing.

Quote:
You insist 'obeying' is a condition of being a Muslim.
I disagree and demonstrate why your claim is absurd.

You don't seem to get the point.


Here is one analogy:
When you sign the marriage certificate [agreement] with your wife, you are making promises [vows] then but have not fulfilled the promises yet.
Now even if you have not fulfill the promises, you are officially a husband.
So you are a husband while you have not fulfill your promises yet.
This analogy demonstrates your ignorance about Islamic terms.
When one signs a marriage contract, it cleary states that you are accepting each other as husband and wife. The contract does not list the actions husband or wife will take. If one does not act like a husband, he will soon be no longer a husband but an ex husband.

The same way, saying the Shahada (fundamental of belief) makes one "believer" ("momin") but then doing actions complying with the Qur'an (the covenant) makes one a Muslim. Therefore, husband is just one term in your analogy but there are two terms in Islam, one for someone signing the contract (momin) and then the other also for someone fulfilling the contract as well (muslim).

Quote:
Similarly for a Muslim, s/he is a Muslim once s/he has entered into a covenant.
Therefore there is no need for one to fulfill promises to Allah to be a Muslim.
That would not make him Muslim but hypocrite. The world is full of such hypocrites who say that they are Muslims but are no more than hypocrites. A believer must do required actions to to be able to say that he is a Muslim.
61:2 O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do?
4:125 And who has better religion than he who submits entirely to Allah and is doer of good (to others).and follows the tradition of Abraham the upright one, and Allah took him as friend.

Quote:
1. Up to 2016 March 10 - 12.00 Noon:
Suppose a Muslim who is 90 years old and has done the very best [better than the majority] as a Muslim. He has fulfill the expectation of the 5 pillars fully, fought and strive for the cause of Allah, etc. Say he is a First Class Honor Muslim.

2. 2016 March 10 at 12.02 Noon:
He consciously and deliberately took a sip of alcohol, [ate a piece of pork or other sin].
As you insist this is against the command of Allah thus he is no more a Muslim.

3. Up to 2016 March 10 - 12:03 Noon:
He suddenly died.

4. By your logic this old man would have died as a non-Muslim and thus must go to hell and punished like all other non-Muslims.
What about his 90 years of being a good Muslims?
It is not my logic either that only Muslims will go to paradise or all non-Muslims will go to hell. Where did you get that idea from about me?

Quote:
The above demonstrate your view is ridiculous. I think it is because you only read the Quran 6-7 times.
That is not my view but your own view.

The guy was a Muslim during all the Islamic actions but he did kufr in the end. What will Allah decide about him is not for me to judge. What I can say is that deliberately eating pork or drink alcohol is sin of disobeying Allah.

Quote:
Here is the better view based on reading the Quran more than 50 times:
Once a person has entered into a covenant with Allah, he is a Muslim.
If a Muslim commit a sin, he is still a Muslim and will be punished accordingly on Judgment Day.

The only way a Muslim become a non-Muslim is when s/he commit an unpardonable sin or voluntarily terminate the covenant with Allah.
During deliberately eating pork and drinking alcohol, he is terminating the covenant. He has broken the covenant.
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
We are not talking about a loose term even you use I am talking in terms of Islsm. Believe is described in 2:285. Submitting folowes this Believing.
There are many terms which have qualities of being a 'loose' or 'widest' term. I wonder you know what I meant by this.
When you say believe precede submit as in 2:285, believe in that sense is used in the widest or loosest sense.
When I stated submit precede believe as in 49:14 [re wandering Arabs], I am using 'believe' in a more specific term. It is not my use but it is Allah's word in the Quran.


Quote:
This analogy demonstrates your ignorance about Islamic terms.
When one signs a marriage contract, it cleary states that you are accepting each other as husband and wife. The contract does not list the actions husband or wife will take. If one does not act like a husband, he will soon be no longer a husband but an ex husband.

The same way, saying the Shahada (fundamental of belief) makes one "believer" ("momin") but then doing actions complying with the Qur'an (the covenant) makes one a Muslim. Therefore, husband is just one term in your analogy but there are two terms in Islam, one for someone signing the contract (momin) and then the other also for someone fulfilling the contract as well (muslim).
You are simply messing up with semantics in this case.


When one enter into a contract of marriage, one is a husband.
Note the obligations of what the husband and wife may not be stipulated in details in the contract, but they are implied as will be determined in a court by a judge.
One can have many terms for a husband, e.g. just married husband, one-month or x-period husband, etc. But the essence of why a person is a husband is conditioned upon the initial marriage contract.


It is the same for Islam.
A Muslim [or whatever label -ABC or XYZ you want to call his/her] is "one who has entered into a covenant with Allah" in essence.
Therefore your two terms or 1,000 terms is not the critical issue here, the critical element is
"one who has entered into a covenant with Allah."
Note you understand the phrase 'a rose by any name ...'
Note it is not just the term "momin," there are other terms to describe a Muslim [i.e. "one who has entered into a covenant with Allah"]

Quote:
That would not make him Muslim but hypocrite. The world is full of such hypocrites who say that they are Muslims but are no more than hypocrites. A believer must do required actions to to be able to say that he is a Muslim.
61:2 O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do?
4:125 And who has better religion than he who submits entirely to Allah and is doer of good (to others).and follows the tradition of Abraham the upright one, and Allah took him as friend.
You missed my point.
I did not implied a Muslim who deliberately do not want to fulfill his promises.


What I meant is a Muslim is "one who has entered into a covenant with Allah."
Once the person "has entered into a covenant with Allah" he is a Muslim.
He is in essence a Muslim even before he has done any of the promises.
He would be a better Muslim when he has done more of the promises.

Quote:
It is not my logic either that only Muslims will go to paradise or all non-Muslims will go to hell. Where did you get that idea from about me?
That is not my view but your own view.
You have forgotten what you have said?
You stated


Khalif wrote:
If any action of a human being is against the commands from Allah, that human being is still human being but not a Muslim DURING that particular action.


My example of the 90 years old man demonstrated your logic above is ridiculous.
You should retract it if you want to make sense.

Quote:
The guy was a Muslim during all the Islamic actions but he did kufr in the end. What will Allah decide about him is not for me to judge. What I can say is that deliberately eating pork or drink alcohol is sin of disobeying Allah.
Obviously no one can know exactly how Allah will judge him on Judgment Day.


But your view as below is ridiculous, Khalif wrote:
If any action of a human being is against the commands from Allah, that human being is still human being but not a Muslim DURING that particular action.


From the Quran, it is stated Allah will tally [reckon] all the deeds of the Muslims and net off the good deeds [from the Illiyin] with the bad deeds [from Sijirin], assuming no unpardonable sins are committed.

Quote:
During deliberately eating pork and drinking alcohol, he is terminating the covenant. He has broken the covenant.
Your understanding of Islam is shallow in this case.


A Muslim is deemed to have terminated the covenant if only s/he has committed an unpardonable sin.
Deliberately a small piece of eating pork and drinking some alcohol one time is not an unpardonable sin. S/he will still be a Muslim but will be punished accordingly to the degree of the sin.
If a Muslim seek forgiveness on Earth after the sin, s/he will be forgiven.


It is a common sense that a contract and agreement is not terminated [unless explicitly stated in the contract] upon the non-fulfilling of minor clauses and conditions. What will happen is the guilty party has to made the correction or pay a penalty BUT the main contract is never terminated.
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Old 03-11-2016, 06:48 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
There are many terms which have qualities of being a 'loose' or 'widest' term. I wonder you know what I meant by this.
When you say believe precede submit as in 2:285, believe in that sense is used in the widest or loosest sense.
When I stated submit precede believe as in 49:14 [re wandering Arabs], I am using 'believe' in a more specific term. It is not my use but it is Allah's word in the Quran.
2:285 describes Believe in comprehensive term. Therefore it is specific Islamic Believe. Wandering Arabs in 49:14 were ignorant about such Believe.

Quote:
You are simply messing up with semantics in this case.
And you are relying only on semantics.

Quote:
When one enter into a contract of marriage, one is a husband.

Note the obligations of what the husband and wife malityay not be stipulated in details in the contract, but they are implied as will be determined in a court by a judge.
One can have many terms for a husband, e.g. just married husband, one-month or x-period husband, etc. But the essence of why a person is a husband is conditioned upon the initial marriage contract.
Husband is only one term. But there are two terms in Islam; Momin and Muslim. Therefore, your analogy is not appropriate in this case.

You may include two terms, husband (for Momin) and father (for Muslim). When one signs the contract to be husband, he is husband but not yet father. He becomes father too after doing some action expected from husband. It is the same in Islam. When one believes, openly or in secret, one is Believer. That Believer is then expected to obey God. When he is obeying God he is not just Believer but is Submitter. Arabic word for such Submitter is Muslim.


Quote:
A Muslim [or whatever label -ABC or XYZ you want to call his/her] is "one who has entered into a covenant with Allah" in essence.
That mkes one Momin. Becomng a Muslim requires further actions than mere believing. Even Shaytan was Believer and is still conscious of Allah. What rendered him non-muslim, and fit for curse of Allah, was him disobeying Allah deliberately, when refusing to obey Allah's command to prostrate to Adam.

Quote:
Therefore your two terms or 1,000 terms is not the critical issue here, the critical element is
"one who has entered into a covenant with Allah."
Note you understand the phrase 'a rose by any name ...'
Note it is not just the term "momin," there are other terms to describe a Muslim [i.e. "one who has entered into a covenant with Allah"]
No. You are talking in ignorance of these two terms. It just goes to prove that despite reading the Qur'an 50+ times, you haven't understood why Allah is addressing them as Momin (Momineen or Mominun), from the outset of the revelation, and when relating to believing, but Muslim only in relation to submitting.

Quote:
You missed my point.i I did not implied a Muslim who deliberately do not want to fulfill his promises.
That's exactly what you had not only implied but explicitly stated. My response was for deliberately disobeying God just as Shaytan had diliberately disobeyed God.

Quote:
What I meant is a Muslim is "one who has entered into a covenant with Allah."
Once the person "has entered into a covenant with Allah" he is a Muslim.
He is in essence a Muslim even before he has done any of the promises.
He would be a better Muslim when he has done more of the promises.
He s only a Believer but not yet a Muslim. Believing is prerequisite for moving on to become a Muslim. That's why Muhammad's initial followers were addressed as "Believers" and not "Muslims" straight away.

Quote:
You have forgotten what you have said?
You stated

Khalif wrote:
If any action of a human being is against the commands from Allah, that human being is still human being but not a Muslim DURING that particular action.

My example of the 90 years old man demonstrated your logic above is ridiculous.
You should retract it if you want to make sense.
With your logic, Shaytan is still a Muslim. Pathetic!

Quote:
Obviously no one can know exactly how Allah will judge him on Judgment Day.
Agreed.

Quote:
But your view as below is ridiculous, Khalif wrote:
If any action of a human being is against the commands from Allah, that human being is still human being but not a Muslim DURING that particular action.
Just as Shaytan was not a Muslim during his deliberate disobedience to Allah, this man was not a Muslim during his deliberate disobedience to Allah. I have not condemned him to hell. Only Allah can do that.

Quote:
From the Quran, it is stated Allah will tally [reckon] all the deeds of the Muslims and net off the good deeds [from the Illiyin] with the bad deeds [from Sijirin], assuming no unpardonable sins are committed.
What was the sin of Shaytan that he was judged by Allah and cursed forever? What was his unpardonsble sin?

Quote:
Your understanding of Islam is shallow in this case.
Funny you say that to me!

Quote:
A Muslim is deemed to have terminated the covenant if only s/he has committed an unpardonable sin.
Deliberately a small piece of eating pork and drinking some alcohol one time is not an unpardonable sin. S/he will still be a Muslim but will be punished accordingly to the degree of the sin.
If a Muslim seek forgiveness on Earth after the sin, s/he will be forgiven.
The old man did not ask or forgiveness after breaking the covenant. You told me that he had died immmediately after eating pork and drinking alcohol. Shaytan too did not ask for forgiveness.

4 :17 Reprntance is only for those who do evil in ignorance, then turn (to Allah) soon, so these it is to whom Allah turns (Mercifully), and Allah is ever-Knowing, Wise.

16:119 Yet surely your Lord, with respet to thse who do rvil in ignorance, then after that, and make amends, most surly your Lord after that is Forgiving, Merciful.
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Old 03-11-2016, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
2:285 describes Believe in comprehensive term. Therefore it is specific Islamic Believe. Wandering Arabs in 49:14 were ignorant about such Believe.

And you are relying only on semantics.

Husband is only one term. But there are two terms in Islam; Momin and Muslim. Therefore, your analogy is not appropriate in this case.

You may include two terms, husband (for Momin) and father (for Muslim). When one signs the contract to be husband, he is husband but not yet father. He becomes father too after doing some action expected from husband. It is the same in Islam. When one believes, openly or in secret, one is Believer. That Believer is then expected to obey God. When he is obeying God he is not just Believer but is Submitter. Arabic word for such Submitter is Muslim.
in 49:14 Allah sent the message that "believe-proper" is of a higher degree than "submission".
You are twisting Allah's word if you insist otherwise.


When one signed a marriage contract, by default he is a husband till he legally divorced the wife.
He is a father when his wife bore him a child or he adopt a child.


Similarly when one enter into a covenant with Allah, be default s/he is a Muslim till he voluntarily terminate the covenant or if s/he commit an unpardonable sin. This is very straightforward.
Point here is that person is a Muslim in essence/substance but can be whatever form of Muslim, i.e. believer, submitter, "momim" or whatever name that is relevant within the Quran.

I believe there are more terms to describe a Muslim-in-essence, other than "momim" in relation to his/her state of God consciousness.


Quote:
With your logic, Shaytan is still a Muslim. Pathetic!
Just as Shaytan was not a Muslim during his deliberate disobedience to Allah, this man was not a Muslim during his deliberate disobedience to Allah. I have not condemned him to hell. Only Allah can do that.
What was the sin of Shaytan that he was judged by Allah and cursed forever? What was his unpardonsble sin?
The sin committed by Shaytan is specific which result in being a disbeliever as declared by Allah as in 2:34.
The deliberate drinking of alcohol [allowable in Paradise] and eating of pork [allowable if need to survive potential death] are pardonable sins.

Quote:
Funny you say that to me!
Why not. I am objective based on the points I explained above.

Quote:
The old man did not ask or forgiveness after breaking the covenant. You told me that he had died immmediately after eating pork and drinking alcohol. Shaytan too did not ask for forgiveness.
Note I explained 2:34 is a specific declaration by Allah on the specific act by Satan who deliberate did not ask for forgiveness.


The 90 years old man sins were pardonable sins in general and he did not have time to ask for forgiveness and I did not state he did not want to ask for forgiveness. This is why I put the acts of my example within minutes, I was thinking with seconds.



Quote:
4 :17 Reprntance is only for those who do evil in ignorance, then turn (to Allah) soon, so these it is to whom Allah turns (Mercifully), and Allah is ever-Knowing, Wise.
Quote:

16:119 Yet surely your Lord, with respet to thse who do rvil in ignorance, then after that, and make amends, most surly your Lord after that is Forgiving, Merciful.
Note the is no time limit to "soon" and "then after that" which could be in terms of day or days.
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Old 03-12-2016, 01:53 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1. The present Quran is supposed to confirm what is in the older revelations.
Your truth!

Quote:
2. The present Torah is claimed by the Quran to be corrupted.
Your lie!

Quote:
3. There is nothing in the present Quran to confirm the need for circumcision.
But we believe it is in the Torah and it has been carried on ever since then. No need for repeat if it was not stopped.

Quote:
4. You cannot even infer that such a command is in the present Jewish Torah because of point 2 above.
It is in the present Torah (GENESIS 17). Your point 2 is a lie.

Quote:
5. There are no available original Torah from Allah for you to confirm with the present Quran.
It is confirmed in the Qur'an more than one times.

Quote:
The actual tradition of circumcision was inherently for health reason. The fact that it was included in some religious text [present Jewish Torah] does not remove the health factor.
This the same for not eating pork and drinking alcohol.
Then the infidels need to understand the health reasons and not keep their minds befogged.
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Old 03-12-2016, 12:19 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
in 49:14 Allah sent the message that "believe-proper" is of a higher degree than "submission".
You are twisting Allah's word if you insist otherwise.
There is only "believe" in the Qur'an. You are trying to corrupt Allah's word to your own words "believe proper".

3:78 Most surely there is s party amongst those who distort the book with their tongues that you may consider it to be (a part) of the book, and they say it is from Allah, but it is not from Allah, and they tell a lie sgainst Allah whilst they know it.

Quote:
When one signed a marriage contract, by default he is a husband till he legally divorced the wife.
He is a father when his wife bore him a child or he adopt a child.
The point to note is that a husband has to do more than just sign a marriage contract to become a father. A believer has to do more than just believe. He has to submit by obeying the commands before he becomes a submmitter (muslim in Arabic).
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