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Old 03-15-2016, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If a persona submits to something, what do they believe they are submitting to? A person can not submit to nothing, if they submit to anything, they believe that anything exists.
Wonder if you have read my posts to Khalif.

I have argued 'believe' like love, religion, spiritual and the likes are very loose terms.
Therefore one must qualify the circumstances it is used.

There are two senses of believe in this case, i.e.
1. The very loose and wider sense of 'believe'.
2. The specific and more intense sense of believe as in 49:14.

Before any one submit to some thing there is an element of 'believe' but this believe is in the very loose sense.
In another perspective, believe do not necessary precede submit where people are forced, coerced, brainwashed [pseudo-believe] and other circumstances.
Therefore one cannot generalize 'believe must precede submit'.

Quote:
Now a person might go through the pretense of submitting to Allaah(swt) but they are not submitting to Allaah(swt) until they actually believe Allaah(swt) exists. That is why we say we do not know who is a Muslim. A person can be going through the motions of submitting and claim to be submitting to Allaah*swt) they are not until they believe Allaah(swt) exists)
Pretend to submit to Allah is not submitting and one is not a Muslim in essence.

A person is a Muslim proper when s/he submit-proper to Allah when entering into a covenant with Allah.
At this stage "believe" may or may not be involved.
Even if 'believe' is involved, this sort of 'believe' is in the looser and wider sense. I hope you understand what I meant here by 'looser' sense.

After submission to Allah via a covenant there is a complex process of believe that entails various methods and approaches, i.e. worship, obey, do one's duty, learn more about Islam as a Muslim.
Obviously there is a difference in degrees of believe and faith on the 1st day as a Muslim in comparison to a person who has been a true Muslims for 30 years.
The 'believe' that Allah implied in 49:14 is not the 'believe' [belief] the Muslim had [if any] on his first or very early days as a Muslims but refer the 'believe' of one who has been a true Muslim for say 10 years when the faith has entered into his heart.

Get it?
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Old 03-15-2016, 10:17 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Wonder if you have read my posts to Khalif.

I have argued 'believe' like love, religion, spiritual and the likes are very loose terms.
Therefore one must qualify the circumstances it is used.

There are two senses of believe in this case, i.e.
1. The very loose and wider sense of 'believe'.
2. The specific and more intense sense of believe as in 49:14.
NO. NO. NO. You couldn't be more wrong.
Allah was absolutely clear in 49:14 that the wandering Arabs did not believe at all as believing hadn't even entered their hearts yet. You cannot argue with Allah on this one.

Quote:
Before any one submit to some thing there is an element of 'believe' but this believe is in the very loose sense.
At least it had to enter their heart, loose or not so loose.

Quote:
In another perspective, believe do not necessary precede submit where people are forced, coerced, brainwashed [pseudo-believe] and other circumstances.
Therefore one cannot generalize 'believe must precede submit'.
No matter how you look at it or do more mental gymnastics with your "believe" thing, it is not going to enter your heart. Even in forced believing, there is someone in their hearts that is making them believe by force.

Quote:
Pretend to submit to Allah is not submitting and one is not a Muslim in essence.
Correct!
Believing is prereguisite to submitting in case of a Muslim.

Quote:
A person is a Muslim proper when s/he submit-proper to Allah when entering into a covenant with Allah.
At this stage "believe" may or may not be involved.
Wrong! Obviously you are not aware of Articles of Faith.

Quote:
Even if 'believe' is involved, this sort of 'believe' is in the looser and wider sense. I hope you understand what I meant here by 'looser' sense.
I understand your point in full. You have been talking about what we call "Eeman" and strength of Eeman, and not 'believe'.

Irn other words, faith and belief may sound the same thing in English but are not exactly the same. Fo example, I find a wallet with $4,000 in it and the owner's address in it too. According to my belief, I must return the property to the owner. But if my Eeman is weak, I may decide to get away with it by thinking of keeping it. I had weak faith in the later situation despite believing that God is watching and I should return the property to the owners.

Quote:
After submission to Allah via a covenant there is a complex process of believe that entails various methods and approaches, i.e. worship, obey, do one's duty, learn more about Islam as a Muslim.
Nothing will happen without 'believe'.

Quote:
Obviously there is a difference in degrees of believe and faith on the 1st day as a Muslim in comparison to a person who has been a true Muslims for 30 years.
Not 'believe' but 'Eeman'. If there is even slightest 'believe' on the very first day, and there must be, then 'believe' has entered that person's heart even on the very first day. His Eeman would get strengthened with "ruh" ("spirt") from Allah through His commands after 'believe'. There is ruh in the Qur'an that you won't understand at all unless you believe. In other words, if no believe, there old be no Eeman, no faith, no strengthening by ruh, no hope, no light, no guide, and no submission. It all begins with 'believe' and depends on 'believe'.

Quote:
The 'believe' that Allah implied in 49:14 is not the 'believe' [belief] the Muslim had [if any] on his first or very early days as a Muslims but refer the 'believe' of one who has been a true Muslim for say 10 years when the faith has entered into his heart.

Get it?
No. It sounds rather gibberish to me. There is no Muslim on earth who does not 'believe'.
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:55 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
NO. NO. NO. You couldn't be more wrong.
Allah was absolutely clear in 49:14 that the wandering Arabs did not believe at all as believing hadn't even entered their hearts yet. You cannot argue with Allah on this one.


At least it had to enter their heart, loose or not so loose.

No matter how you look at it or do more mental gymnastics with your "believe" thing, it is not going to enter your heart. Even in forced believing, there is someone in their hearts that is making them believe by force.

Correct!
Believing is prereguisite to submitting in case of a Muslim.

Wrong! Obviously you are not aware of Articles of Faith.

I understand your point in full. You have been talking about what we call "Eeman" and strength of Eeman, and not 'believe'.

Irn other words, faith and belief may sound the same thing in English but are not exactly the same. Fo example, I find a wallet with $4,000 in it and the owner's address in it too. According to my belief, I must return the property to the owner. But if my Eeman is weak, I may decide to get away with it by thinking of keeping it. I had weak faith in the later situation despite believing that God is watching and I should return the property to the owners.


Nothing will happen without 'believe'.

Not 'believe' but 'Eeman'. If there is even slightest 'believe' on the very first day, and there must be, then 'believe' has entered that person's heart even on the very first day. His Eeman would get strengthened with "ruh" ("spirt") from Allah through His commands after 'believe'. There is ruh in the Qur'an that you won't understand at all unless you believe. In other words, if no believe, there old be no Eeman, no faith, no strengthening by ruh, no hope, no light, no guide, and no submission. It all begins with 'believe' and depends on 'believe'.

No. It sounds rather gibberish to me. There is no Muslim on earth who does not 'believe'.
Note we are discussing 49:14 therefore you need to focus on the verse specifically.
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Read 49:14 again and with a fine-toothed comb this time.

Within Islam, a person who has submitted is a Muslim.
When Allah conveyed in 49:14 the wandering Arabs had only 'submitted' it is implied they are already Muslims.
As you stated [& I agree] 'there is no Muslims who has not 'believe'.

But Allah stated they have not believe. Literally if they have not believe they are not Muslims.
In the other statement Allah stated they have submitted, therefore they are Muslims.
So it seem Allah has stated a contradiction.

Since Allah is all powerful and all knowing, Allah could not have committed a contradiction.
To understand Allah did not make any contradiction, we have to understand there are two senses to 'believe' i.e.

1. Loose sense of believe
2. Specific and qualified sense of believe-proper.

What Allah had expressed was the believe in 49:14 was the specific type of believe-proper.
This is the fact of what Allah has intended in 49:14.

You on the other hand are using your own fallible thinking as a slave to twist your master's [Allah's] words and actual intention.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:59 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note we are discussing 49:14 therefore you need to focus on the verse specifically.
49:14. The wandering Arabs say: We believe.
Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say `We submit,' for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.
Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Read 49:14 again and with a fine-toothed comb this time.

Within Islam, a person who has submitted is a Muslim.
This is where you do not have a fine tooth comb that you could use. You may borrow mine instead.

Within Islam, one submits to Allah after believing Allah. Without believng Allah, submitting cannot be to Allah but to someone else, which is not within Islam but outside Islam.

Quote:
When Allah conveyed in 49:14 the wandering Arabs had only 'submitted' it is implied they are already Muslims.
No non-believer can be Muslim. So Allah did not "imply" but you "imply" so.


Quote:
As you stated [& I agree] 'there is no Muslims who has not 'believe'.
Then there could be no implication that they were Muslims.

Quote:
But Allah stated they have not believe. Literally if they have not believe they are not Muslims.
Correct.

Quote:
In the other statement Allah stated they have submitted, therefore they are Muslims.
So it seem Allah has stated a contradiction.3
You are imagining too much here. Allah never said that they were Muslims. So no contradiction.

Quote:
Since Allah is all powerful and all knowing, Allah could not have committed a contradiction.
To understand Allah did not make any contradiction, we have to understand there are two senses to 'believe' i.e.

1. Loose sense of believe
2. Specific and qualified sense of believe-proper.
To understand there is no contradiction, you cannot assume two 'believe'. Allah said that they did not believe at all. That rules out any kind of 'believe' is involved. The ony logical conclusion you can draw is that they were submitting to other than Allah, which is not Islam nor it makes them Muslims.

Quote:
What Allah had expressed was the believe in 49:14 was the specific type of believe-proper.
This is the fact of what Allah has intended in 49:14.
But Allah ruled out any kind of 'believe' when He said in 49:14 that they did not believe and it hadn't even entered their hearts. Allah has left no room for you to create another category of 'believe'.

Quote:
You on the other hand are using your own fallible thinking as a slave to twist your master's [Allah's] words and actual intention.
And you can do so on Allah's behalf even when you do not believe Him?
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Old 03-16-2016, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Wonder if you have read my posts to Khalif.

I have argued 'believe' like love, religion, spiritual and the likes are very loose terms.
Therefore one must qualify the circumstances it is used.

There are two senses of believe in this case, i.e.
1. The very loose and wider sense of 'believe'.
2. The specific and more intense sense of believe as in 49:14.

Before any one submit to some thing there is an element of 'believe' but this believe is in the very loose sense.
In another perspective, believe do not necessary precede submit where people are forced, coerced, brainwashed [pseudo-believe] and other circumstances.
Therefore one cannot generalize 'believe must precede submit'.


Pretend to submit to Allah is not submitting and one is not a Muslim in essence.

A person is a Muslim proper when s/he submit-proper to Allah when entering into a covenant with Allah.
At this stage "believe" may or may not be involved.
Even if 'believe' is involved, this sort of 'believe' is in the looser and wider sense. I hope you understand what I meant here by 'looser' sense.

After submission to Allah via a covenant there is a complex process of believe that entails various methods and approaches, i.e. worship, obey, do one's duty, learn more about Islam as a Muslim.
Obviously there is a difference in degrees of believe and faith on the 1st day as a Muslim in comparison to a person who has been a true Muslims for 30 years.
The 'believe' that Allah implied in 49:14 is not the 'believe' [belief] the Muslim had [if any] on his first or very early days as a Muslims but refer the 'believe' of one who has been a true Muslim for say 10 years when the faith has entered into his heart.

Get it?
As Khalif has been explaining. I person can be submittinng without belief in Allaah(swt) but they are not submitting to Allaah(swt) unless they believe in Allaah(swt)

A person can abide by every ayyat in the Qur'an and relentlessly perform every Pillar of faith but if they do not believe in Allaah(swt) they are not submitting to Allaah(swt). Although that may be part of the path that leads the person to eventually believe in Allaah(swt) and actually submit. That is not likely, the greater probability is they will be complacent in just satisfying whoever it is they are trying to please or impress.
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Old 03-16-2016, 02:08 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A person can abide by every ayyat in the Qur'an and relentlessly perform every Pillar of faith but if they do not believe in Allaah(swt) they are not submitting to Allaah(swt).
Actually, it is impossible for anyone to abide by every ayat in the Qur'an without believing In Allaah. Not only that but it is impossible to perform at least 2 pillers (1 and 5) out of 5 pillers without believing in Allaah.

It is possible for someone to pray to an idol, give some money to charity by buying a lottery ticket, and starve himself for 24 hours but without believing in Allaah there would be no Shahada and no entry into Makkah for hajj.

Submitting without 'believe' in the fundamental 1st piller is never submitting to Allaah.
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Old 03-16-2016, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,067 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
This is where you do not have a fine tooth comb that you could use. You may borrow mine instead.

Within Islam, one submits to Allah after believing Allah. Without believng Allah, submitting cannot be to Allah but to someone else, which is not within Islam but outside Islam.

No non-believer can be Muslim. So Allah did not "imply" but you "imply" so.


Then there could be no implication that they were Muslims.

Correct.

You are imagining too much here. Allah never said that they were Muslims. So no contradiction.

To understand there is no contradiction, you cannot assume two 'believe'. Allah said that they did not believe at all. That rules out any kind of 'believe' is involved. The ony logical conclusion you can draw is that they were submitting to other than Allah, which is not Islam nor it makes them Muslims.

But Allah ruled out any kind of 'believe' when He said in 49:14 that they did not believe and it hadn't even entered their hearts. Allah has left no room for you to create another category of 'believe'.

And you can do so on Allah's behalf even when you do not believe Him?
Note my reply to you on the same point in this relevant thread.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/43385385-post90.html
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