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Old 02-21-2016, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I claimed I have read the Quran more than 50++ times and I noted the overall gist of it is the Quran deemed the present Torah and Gospel are corrupted.


I have not compiled all the relevant verses [there are many]. I don't want to waste time at present but here is one verse that point in that direction; in [] = mine
6:91 [part ]Say [O Muhammad] (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye [Jews] have put [transcribe] on parchments which ye show, but ye [Jews] hide much (thereof), and by which ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)? Say [Muhammad]: Allah. Then leave them [Jews] to their play of cavilling.


In 6:91 the original Book was revealed to Moses but the Jews subsequently transcribe it into parchment and hide much of it and pass it on to future generations. This is an example of corruption of the original book [prior Quran].


The Christians assigned a son to Allah, this is obviously a corruption of Allah's message. I am sure you can find the relevant verses that support this corruption from the Quran.


As I said, there are many other verses that present similar points re corruption by the Jews and Christians.


The point is if you have read the Quran 50 times objectively [not emotionally and based on faith] you will certainly have to agree with me.
You are assuming Allaah(swt) does not exist and that the Qur'an is not the actual words spoken by Him. But we Muslims deeply believe Allaah(swt) exists and the Qur'an is verbatum what He said to Muhammad(saws) through Jibril. The result is we will interpret the Qur'an differently than you do.
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Old 02-21-2016, 01:43 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I claimed I have read the Quran more than 50++ times and I noted the overall gist of it is the Quran deemed the present Torah and Gospel are corrupted.


I have not compiled all the relevant verses [there are many]. I don't want to waste time at present but here is one verse that point in that direction; in [] = mine

6:91 [part ]Say [O Muhammad] (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye [Jews] have put [transcribe] on parchments which ye show, but ye [Jews] hide much (thereof), and by which ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)? Say [Muhammad]: Allah. Then leave them [Jews] to their play of cavilling.


In 6:91 the original Book was revealed to Moses but the Jews subsequently transcribe it into parchment and hide much of it and pass it on to future generations. This is an example of corruption of the original book [prior Quran].
I knew you would be looking for a straw to hang on to. And you have done just that but, sorry buddy, the straw you were looking for isn't there at all. 6:91 does not say that the Torah was corrupted but it was written in various books. This is the first point. We know that they did write it in various books, after the Babylonian captivity, rather than write it all in one book. The Babylonians had destroyed the original when destroying the Temple. So the Qur'an does not say that they corrupted the original but wrote it in more than one book.

The second point that you do not understand about what is in 6:91 is that the Jews had the Torah, rather than corrupted Torah, during Muhammad's days, with them but they were not making it known to men. They were hiding some of it and showing only some of it. That is not corrupting the Torah but being kept by the certain elite and not making it known to all as they were required to do (3:187).

2:41 confirms the Torah that is "with you" (Jews). 3:81 reveals that the Jews were told through their prophets that a mesenger will come who will confirm what is "with you" (Jews). Muhammad confirmed what was with the Jews. 5:43 tells us that the Jews had the Torah with them in Madina and it had the judgment of Allah in it. This is not a reference to a coruppted Torah, is it?


Quote:
The Christians assigned a son to Allah, this is obviously a corruption of Allah's message. I am sure you can find the relevant verses that support this corruption from the Quran.
That was not corruption of Injeel or even Gospels. Nowhere in the Gospels Jesus is saying that he was Allah's biological son. In those days, any godly man or a prophet was often considered "son of God" rather than biological son of God. Allah tells them through the Qur'an to desist saying so (because people could regard Jesus biolgical son of God). Therefore it is not corruption of Injeel (preaching of Jesus) but misunderstanding or ignorance on some peoples' part of what is in the Gospels.

Quote:
As I said, there are many other verses that present similar points re corruption by the Jews and Christians.
As you have "many other verses" that say that the Torah and the Gospels were corrupted by the Jews and Christian, let's have some more that actually say so rather than those that you perceive to be presenting your point; a rather non-existing straw.


Quote:
The point is if you have read the Quran 50 times objectively [not emotionally and based on faith] you will certainly have to agree with me.
LOL! Even 50,000 times won't be enough for you judging by the result after 50 readings. You need to try and take that veil off before reading the Qur'an next time so that you could understand it.
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Old 02-21-2016, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I knew you would be looking for a straw to hang on to. And you have done just that but, sorry buddy, the straw you were looking for isn't there at all. 6:91 does not say that the Torah was corrupted but it was written in various books. This is the first point. We know that they did write it in various books, after the Babylonian captivity, rather than write it all in one book. The Babylonians had destroyed the original when destroying the Temple. So the Qur'an does not say that they corrupted the original but wrote it in more than one book.

The second point that you do not understand about what is in 6:91 is that the Jews had the Torah, rather than corrupted Torah, during Muhammad's days, with them but they were not making it known to men. They were hiding some of it and showing only some of it. That is not corrupting the Torah but being kept by the certain elite and not making it known to all as they were required to do (3:187).
That is the point, it is because you do not reflect and read the Quran intelligently.
Note this is merely ONE Example, there are many others.


You did not read the full verse 6:91.
The implication is the earlier Jews hide and thus the later generations were reading the partial Quran as opposed to the complete "Quran" from Allah. This is obviously a corruption of the Quran. Corruption do not just mean editing and changing the texts, hiding and not showing are also a form of corruption of the original full message.

Quote:
2:41 confirms the Torah that is "with you" (Jews). 3:81 reveals that the Jews were told through their prophets that a mesenger will come who will confirm what is "with you" (Jews). Muhammad confirmed what was with the Jews. 5:43 tells us that the Jews had the Torah with them in Madina and it had the judgment of Allah in it. This is not a reference to a coruppted Torah, is it?
Note 'confirm' does not imply the 'what is with you" [Jews] is the full true original.
If the Torah is the same as the original Quran, then there is no need for Allah to reveal a very different Quran to Muhammad as the final revelation.
Can you tell how much of a similarities in term of concept are there between the Torah and the Quran [Muhammad's]?


Quote:
That was not corruption of Injeel or even Gospels. Nowhere in the Gospels Jesus is saying that he was Allah's biological son. In those days, any godly man or a prophet was often considered "son of God" rather than biological son of God. Allah tells them through the Qur'an to desist saying so (because people could regard Jesus biolgical son of God). Therefore it is not corruption of Injeel (preaching of Jesus) but misunderstanding or ignorance on some peoples' part of what is in the Gospels.
The Gospels of Jesus did not mention Jesus was the biological son of God. Jesus as son was in the spiritual sense.


However it is the Quran that condemned the Christians as claiming Jesus is the son of God. So it was Allah who is ignorant in claiming otherwise.


Here is one verse [amongst many] is what Allah said; in [] =mine
2:116. And they [Christians] say: Allah hath taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified! Nay, but whatsoever is in the heaven and the earth, His. All are subservient unto Him.
2:116 above imply son [biological or otherwise] was assigned to Allah and thus the Christians holy texts were corrupted.


Quote:
As you have "many other verses" that say that the Torah and the Gospels were corrupted by the Jews and Christian, let's have some more that actually say so rather than those that you perceive to be presenting your point; a rather non-existing straw.

LOL! Even 50,000 times won't be enough for you judging by the result after 50 readings. You need to try and take that veil off before reading the Qur'an next time so that you could understand it.
As I mentioned one handicap for me is the ability to extract all the relevant verses related to the point.
In addition I don't want to waste time searching for them amongst the 6,236 verses till I have a program or have done something to get easy access to them.


I'll will produce them in time and then we'll see who is the ignorant one.


Edit:
Here is another one;
2:146 Those unto whom We gave the Scripture recognise (this revelation) as they recognise their sons. But lo! a party of them knowingly conceal the truth.
Concealing the truth is also corruption of the original message.


Here is another;
6:93 [part] Who is guilty of more wrong than he [the Jews] who forgeth a lie against Allah, .....


Although it is not mentioned specifically, forget a lie against Allah is implied to be done in their texts when we read in the whole contexts of the Quran, thus a corruption.


Here is another;
9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!


9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!



According to Allah, Allah has no sons in the old or new Quran. From the above verse, there is a corruption of the message of Allah.


Here is another;
10:68 They say: Allah hath taken (unto Him) a son - Glorified be He! He hath no needs! His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. Ye have no warrant for this. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?
There are many more and since it take time I will do it later.


Now who is the ignorant of the Quran?
Reading 6-7 times is not enough to understand the contexts of the Quran fully.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-21-2016 at 11:06 PM..
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Old 02-22-2016, 04:58 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
That is the point, it is because you do not reflect and read the Quran intelligently.
Note this is merely ONE Example, there are many others.


You did not read the full verse 6:91.
The implication is the earlier Jews hide and thus the later generations were reading the partial Quran as opposed to the complete "Quran" from Allah. This is obviously a corruption of the Quran. Corruption do not just mean editing and changing the texts, hiding and not showing are also a form of corruption of the original full message.
Earlier Jews were hiding the Qur'an?

I am now worried about your sanity.

Quote:
Note 'confirm' does not imply the 'what is with you" [Jews] is the full true original.
If the Torah is the same as the original Quran, then there is no need for Allah to reveal a very different Quran to Muhammad as the final revelation.
Can you tell how much of a similarities in term of concept are there between the Torah and the Quran [Muhammad's]?
Again, you want to move away from the subject of corruption of Torah to similarity between the Torah and the Qur'an.
The Qur'an confimed the Torah with the Jews at the time was from Allah or else the Qur'an would have rejected whatever was with the Jews.

You can't understand what was being "confirmed". Did you want another Torah to be sent to Muslims that was exactly word by word and call it "the Qur'an" to satisfy your intelligence as "confirmed"? That would not be "confirmed" but the exact copy (Torah).


Quote:
However it is the Quran that condemned the Christians as claiming Jesus is the son of God. So it was Allah who is ignorant in claiming otherwise.
You do not know that it was the Christians who were claiming Jesus to be begotten son of God (in the Acts and Hebrews) and not Jesus or Allah. You are talking in ignorance because you can't understand the Qur'an.
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Old 02-22-2016, 05:56 AM
 
Location: california
5,654 posts, read 4,878,328 times
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Jesus made His own claim to be the Son of God and the essence of the Father.
Jesus Himself said ,"If you have seen me than you have seen the Father "

Secondly God does not lie , nor will any liar enter the kingdom of heaven .
Jesus said Satan is a liar and the father of it .
According to the Quran though lies are acceptable to be said to the infidel . you have a double standard . yes or no ?
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
Jesus made His own claim to be the Son of God and the essence of the Father.
Jesus Himself said ,"If you have seen me than you have seen the Father "

Secondly God does not lie , nor will any liar enter the kingdom of heaven .
Jesus said Satan is a liar and the father of it .
According to the Quran though lies are acceptable to be said to the infidel . you have a double standard . yes or no ?
Jesus never claimed to be the son of God. There is not a single scripture written by Jesus(as) and of 4 Gospels of the Apostles "If you have seen me than you have seen the Father " is only found in John 14:9. It is an English Translation of The Koine Greek. It is not likely Jesus spoke.Greek as his daily language. The earliest known Koine Greek version of John was written in 125 CE We do not even know who John was. The actual author of the gospel of John is unknown and the Gospels were not given names of any authors until almost the 3rd century. The Gospel did not originally begin with the line "The Gospel according to John" that was not added until late in the Second Century


When Did the Gospels Get Their Names?

In this series of posts on the authors’ names associated with the New Testament Gospels – Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John – we have so far seen that the texts themselves are completely anonymous. The authors of two of these works (Luke and John) do speak in the first person in a couple of instances, but they do not say who they are. By the end of the second century, roughly a century after the books were written, they were being called by the names that are familiar to us today. So naturally one might wonder, when were they given these ascriptions?

Contrary to what you may sometimes have heard, there is no concrete evidence that the Gospels received their familiar names early on. It is absolutely true to say that in the manuscripts of the Gospels, they have the titles we are accustomed to (The Gospel according to Matthew, etc.). But these manuscripts with titles do not start appearing until around 200 CE. What were manuscripts of, say, Matthew or John entitled in the year 120 CE? We have no way of knowing. But there are reasons to think that they were not called Matthew and John.
When Did the Gospels Get Their Names? – The Bart Ehrman Blog





Lies are never acceptable. In many ways it is considered a greater sin for a Muslim to Lie to a non-Muslim than to another Muslim.

There are some conditions under which a sin is not considered a serious sin and will not be punished. But it does not grant permission to lie to a non-Muslim nor does it encourage lying.

Those conditions are:

1. When forced to under duress

2. When it is the only means to save an innocent person's life

3. When a lie about a minor issue will preserve peace between married people

4. When it will bring Peace between Nations (Generally that is meant to be kitman- not revealing a fact that might encourage war)

5. When it is used during an actual physical war to confound/confuse an attacking force. (This is the part the anti-Islam sites misinterpret as meaning it is permissible to lie to non-Muslims) (in other words the anti-Islam are using the Taqqiyyah they accuse Muslims of)
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Old 02-22-2016, 09:52 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As I mentioned one handicap for me is the ability to extract all the relevant verses related to the point.
In addition I don't want to waste time searching for them amongst the 6,236 verses till I have a program or have done something to get easy access to them.


I'll will produce them in time and then we'll see who is the ignorant one.
In the mean time, enjoy your time in ignorance about the Qur'an.

You talk about "context". Yet you don't even know all the verses of the Qur'an on the same topic. Not only you do not know the context of the verses, you do not know the context of the Qur'an on the same topic or issue.

One year of just reading of the Qur'an is nothing compared with 16 years of proper study on every issue/topic in the Qur'an. That is why I can debate with you about the Qur'an but you can't. Proper study (not just reading even 50 times with closed mind) will help you debate about the Qur'an with me. Otherwise, I will be aware of the context not only of the verses but of the whole Qur'an on any issue but you will be groping in the dark without light.
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Old 02-22-2016, 10:27 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh View Post
Jesus made His own claim to be the Son of God and the essence of the Father.
Jesus Himself said ,"If you have seen me than you have seen the Father "
Jesus never said that he is the Son of God and the essence of the Father. This is an utter lie attributed to Jesus. Nobody, whether Christian, Jew or Muslim, knows essence of God. God is known only by His attributes. Having similar (and of course not exactly the same) attributes is what makes one so-called "godly person" as His vicegerent on earth.

"If you have seen me then you have seen the Father", even if Jesus said so, is completely misinterpreted by many Christians. This is similar misinterpretation to many Muslims' interpretation of "whoever obeys the messenger indeed obeys Allah" (4:80). Had the Muslims done the same silly mental gymnastic, they would have said, with the passage of time, that the Messenger was Allah. Muslims will never do such thing because of Shahada, "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His servant and messenger".
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Old 02-22-2016, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,276,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Jesus never said that he is the Son of God and the essence of the Father. This is an utter lie attributed to Jesus. Nobody, whether Christian, Jew or Muslim, knows essence of God. God is known only by His attributes. Having similar (and of course not exactly the same) attributes is what makes one so-called "godly person" as His vicegerent on earth.

"If you have seen me then you have seen the Father", even if Jesus said so, is completely misinterpreted by many Christians. This is similar misinterpretation to many Muslims' interpretation of "whoever obeys the messenger indeed obeys Allah" (4:80). Had the Muslims done the same silly mental gymnastic, they would have said, with the passage of time, that the Messenger was Allah. Muslims will never do such thing because of Shahada, "There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His servant and messenger".
what I find amusing is Christians like Muslims do acknowledge Jesus(as) is a true Messiah However, Christians overlook that by definition a Messiah is not God(swt).
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Old 02-22-2016, 01:24 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
what I find amusing is Christians like Muslims do acknowledge Jesus(as) is a true Messiah However, Christians overlook that by definition a Messiah is not God(swt).
And I find even more amusing is that Jesus was known às a prophet (Mathew 21:11, 21:46, Luke 13:33, 24:19, John 9:17) even till after the crucifixion event.
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