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Old 02-24-2016, 01:53 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
At no point did he state the Torah, Zboor or Injeel were inviolable and preserved. The Torah was complete at the time it was revealed and it served a specific purpose to a specific people. As the people changed and Islam spread it was necessary to add the Zaboor (Psalms) again as Islam expanded a grew it was necessary to Send Jesus(a.s.) Fianaly the Message was completed with the Qur'an and is sealed from further change or additions.


1``````````````
State it? What is He, a car salesman? How about just doing what is good and right from the start? Since there is imperfection, and imperfection cannot exist around Perfection as it makes the paradoxical Perfection technically imperfect, then this salesman tactic is also imperfect.

But how does your explanation of the mythology of Islam mean that a Quran can be kept but an Injeel could not? If the Quran was utterly destroyed, no one would even be able to tell that it broke it's promise. But there are already many Qurans with various interpretations, so the promise was already broken. As one cannot tell a "true Injeel" one cannot tell a "true Quran."
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Old 02-24-2016, 02:26 AM
 
Location: Australia
3 posts, read 988 times
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At the time the Gospels had been disseminated widely so effacement of the actual text was impossible because this could easily be verified. What I believe is meant by corruption of the text was the 'meanings'. Some said Christ was God and some said He was part of three, the trinity and so the Quran pointed out that the correct meanings had been perverted by wrong interpretations.

The trinity was a doctrine created by th Council of Nicea in 325 AD. Jesus never mentioned it.

The Quran doesn't contradict the Bible but contradicts people's understandings of it.

One can reach an understanding of both the Bible and Quran that are in harmony with each other. Take the Resurrection. Take Mount Tabor. The disciples saw Moses and Christ along with Elijah and yet there were other people there that saw nothing and the disciples were told to tell no one as it was a vision not a real occurrence.

Similarly, the resurrection can also mean the exaltation of the Cause of Christ after days of confusion. When Jesus died it appeared that He was just another man who had died but in visions the disciples had of Him they realised His spirit had not been crucified only His body and they gained faith.

Now another claim in the Quran says that Jesus was not crucified meaning that the Spirit of God within Him was not crucified. This ties in with the bodily crucifixion in the Gospel.

All Holy Books can be viewed from an historically accurate and truthful viewpoint which unites and reconciles the differences.

So Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. Even the Torah and Gospels foretell Muhammad.

So - the Gospel and the Quran and Torah are the Word of God without contradiction, in fact they confirm each other and compliment each other. They are both true and correct.

All the video says to me is that the teaching of Christ to love one another has been forgotten. Muslims spread belief in Jesus to 1.6 billion people. Muhammad was the greatest Christian missionary Christians ever had. They should thank Him.

Last edited by worldcitizen1919; 02-24-2016 at 02:44 AM..
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Old 02-24-2016, 03:49 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,279,617 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
State it? What is He, a car salesman? How about just doing what is good and right from the start? Since there is imperfection, and imperfection cannot exist around Perfection as it makes the paradoxical Perfection technically imperfect, then this salesman tactic is also imperfect.

But how does your explanation of the mythology of Islam mean that a Quran can be kept but an Injeel could not? If the Quran was utterly destroyed, no one would even be able to tell that it broke it's promise. But there are already many Qurans with various interpretations, so the promise was already broken. As one cannot tell a "true Injeel" one cannot tell a "true Quran."
first of all the Qur'an was not designed to be written, it is designed to be memorized. World wide even in today's world at least 25% of the world's Muslims have memorized all of the Qur'an and the majority of us have memorized a large part of it.

Another factor is the Qur'an can not be translated. No translation is considered to be a Qur'an. A Muslim is not to give or sell an actual Qur'an to a non-Muslim or even allow a non-Muslim to even touch a Qur'an unless they have shown they will treat it with respect. the Translations of the Qur'an have no real value to us except as a tool until we learn to read an actual Qur'an.

Every Qur'an could be destroyed and it would be easily reconstructed. typically only one Qur'an is needed for every Muslim Community

There is at least one nation in which Qur'ans are forbidden (North Korea) but that does not stop NK Muslims from knowing the Qur'an as there are Hafiz (People that have memorized the Qur'an) to teach the Qur'an.

Many Imams are Hafiz. It helps to be a Hafiz if one is an Imam as during the 5 obligatory prayers the Imam has to recite parts of the Qur'an, although the ayyats are of his own choice. but we do like variety and try to recite a different part in each Rakkat. A good Imam will try to recite one complete Juz(1/30th of the Qur'an) each day with about 1/6th of a Juz recited in each of the 5 Salah. When we function as an Imam, we have to do so by memory with no written notes etc. Every Muslim can be called upon to be the Imam during prayer time in a Mosque. Many Mosques do not have an Imam and any person present may have to serve as the Imam. I often get assigned the duty the moment I step in a Mosque because I am nearly always the oldest person present. Although I am very repetitious as I only have a few Surah memorized.
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Old 02-24-2016, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by worldcitizen1919 View Post
At the time the Gospels had been disseminated widely so effacement of the actual text was impossible because this could easily be verified. What I believe is meant by corruption of the text was the 'meanings'. Some said Christ was God and some said He was part of three, the trinity and so the Quran pointed out that the correct meanings had been perverted by wrong interpretations.

The trinity was a doctrine created by th Council of Nicea in 325 AD. Jesus never mentioned it.
The "trinity" was probably a later concept, but it is nevertheless compiled based on a combination of the existing three elements which is already in the NT.


It is the same with the Shahada which is a later concept which is not in the original Quran.
But the essential elements of the Shahada are already in the Quran.
It is only for efficiency sake that later Muslims combined the already existing elements in the Quran to come up with a combinations and give it a new term. There is nothing wrong with this.


Note it is the mark of human intelligence and progress to find new combinations and patterns in already existing elements and to make good use of the new found patterns. This is happening all over in Science, and all other fields of human knowledge.
So it is not an issue with theologians to come up with new combinations of elements to conceptualize new concepts, e.g. 'Trinity' 'Shahada' '5 Pillars' without distorting its original meanings an intentions.


As far as the NT of Jesus is concerned, there is no corruption relative to any other texts.
The NT is an improved version of the OT with its overriding pacifist maxims, e.g. 'love thy enemies' 'give the other cheek' etc.


There is nothing wrong with the concept of the 'Trinity'.


What Muhammad did was [not correct] but condemn the OT and NT to shine his own.
This is very typical of many newcomers in the religious arena, i.e. condemn the previous to ensure conversions and new followers.
Note this is human nature and happened with marketing, sports politics [note how the current US President candidates go for each other throats] and in every human endeavor.



Quote:
The Quran doesn't contradict the Bible but contradicts people's understandings of it.
In the essential elements of spirituality, the Quran is the opposite of the Bible in terms of being compassionate to non-believers.
The NT has an overriding pacifist maxim of 'love they enemies' while the Quran has an overriding no-holds-barred maxim of 'kill non-Muslim wherever you find them' where necessary.

Quote:
One can reach an understanding of both the Bible and Quran that are in harmony with each other. Take the Resurrection. Take Mount Tabor. The disciples saw Moses and Christ along with Elijah and yet there were other people there that saw nothing and the disciples were told to tell no one as it was a vision not a real occurrence.

Similarly, the resurrection can also mean the exaltation of the Cause of Christ after days of confusion. When Jesus died it appeared that He was just another man who had died but in visions the disciples had of Him they realised His spirit had not been crucified only His body and they gained faith.

Now another claim in the Quran says that Jesus was not crucified meaning that the Spirit of God within Him was not crucified. This ties in with the bodily crucifixion in the Gospel.

All Holy Books can be viewed from an historically accurate and truthful viewpoint which unites and reconciles the differences.
The Quran was plagiarized from elements of the OT and NT, thus obviously there will be similarities.
But where it matters spirituality, the Quran and Bible are at the opposite ends of human morality. Note my point above.

So Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. Even the Torah and Gospels foretell Muhammad.

Quote:
So - the Gospel and the Quran and Torah are the Word of God without contradiction, in fact they confirm each other and compliment each other. They are both true and correct.

All the video says to me is that the teaching of Christ to love one another has been forgotten. Muslims spread belief in Jesus to 1.6 billion people. Muhammad was the greatest Christian missionary Christians ever had. They should thank Him.
Muslims believed in a distorted form of the original NT. Because the Quran was plagiarized and leverage on the OT and NT it has no choice but to accept the existence of Jesus.
However it was the Quran which changed the correct concepts relating to Jesus as 'Son' [not biological] to some thing else to suit their beliefs.
There is no way Muhammad was intentionally preaching for Christianity but rather Christians are slayed and oppressed by SOME evil prone Muslims wherever possible. Note the removal of Christians from the Saudi Peninsula then and now all over the Middle East. This is a fact no one can deny.
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Old 02-25-2016, 12:11 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I have quoted various Quranic verses with the term 'spirit' therein and explain what it meant.
You have quoted several verses with the word spirit and likened it to the "essence of God". This is merely Christian understanding of Jesus being essence of God "God emptied Himself into a body of man" (Jesus). Then they make mistake by saying that Jesus is "Son" and there are "three" in Trinity, "Father", "Son" and "Spirit".

Reality is that you failed utterly to explain "spirit" in the Qur'an. "Spirit" in the Qur'an is not "essence of God". Therefore you are still in the dark as to "what is spirit" according to the Qur'an. It's because you are not researching the Qur'an but searching Muslims to tell you what is spirit.

As I stated previously, "spirit" is explained quite clearly in the Qur'an but you are nowhere near to that explanation. You disappoint me!
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Old 02-25-2016, 12:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You have quoted several verses with the word spirit and likened it to the "essence of God". This is merely Christian understanding of Jesus being essence of God "God emptied Himself into a body of man" (Jesus). Then they make mistake by saying that Jesus is "Son" and there are "three" in Trinity, "Father", "Son" and "Spirit".
Where the heck you get the idea Christianity state "God emptied Himself into a body of a man" [Jesus]. There is no such thing, this is your crazy thought.


Note I have explained the concept of 'spirit' using the piece of ice and Ocean analogy.
Did you read that?
Tell me why that is wrong.

Quote:
Reality is that you failed utterly to explain "spirit" in the Qur'an. "Spirit" in the Qur'an is not "essence of God". Therefore you are still in the dark as to "what is spirit" according to the Qur'an. It's because you are not researching the Qur'an but searching Muslims to tell you what is spirit.

As I stated previously, "spirit" is explained quite clearly in the Qur'an but you are nowhere near to that explanation. You disappoint me!
Reality is you have failed to understand what I meant by 'essence' in this case. You still think it meant 'sperm.'
Some how your understanding of these religious, spiritual and philosophical term is very kindergartenish.


I suggest you update yourself on the meaning of 'spirit' in the philosophical and spiritual perspective as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit


Btw, you have not demonstrated what you understand by the term "spirit" as in the Quran.
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Old 02-25-2016, 01:14 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,739,597 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
first of all the Qur'an was not designed to be written, it is designed to be memorized. World wide even in today's world at least 25% of the world's Muslims have memorized all of the Qur'an and the majority of us have memorized a large part of it.

Another factor is the Qur'an can not be translated. No translation is considered to be a Qur'an. A Muslim is not to give or sell an actual Qur'an to a non-Muslim or even allow a non-Muslim to even touch a Qur'an unless they have shown they will treat it with respect. the Translations of the Qur'an have no real value to us except as a tool until we learn to read an actual Qur'an.

Every Qur'an could be destroyed and it would be easily reconstructed. typically only one Qur'an is needed for every Muslim Community

There is at least one nation in which Qur'ans are forbidden (North Korea) but that does not stop NK Muslims from knowing the Qur'an as there are Hafiz (People that have memorized the Qur'an) to teach the Qur'an.

Many Imams are Hafiz. It helps to be a Hafiz if one is an Imam as during the 5 obligatory prayers the Imam has to recite parts of the Qur'an, although the ayyats are of his own choice. but we do like variety and try to recite a different part in each Rakkat. A good Imam will try to recite one complete Juz(1/30th of the Qur'an) each day with about 1/6th of a Juz recited in each of the 5 Salah. When we function as an Imam, we have to do so by memory with no written notes etc. Every Muslim can be called upon to be the Imam during prayer time in a Mosque. Many Mosques do not have an Imam and any person present may have to serve as the Imam. I often get assigned the duty the moment I step in a Mosque because I am nearly always the oldest person present. Although I am very repetitious as I only have a few Surah memorized.
Not designed to be written... I see another flaw now. It is something it is not designed to be, since it was too weak of a communication form to be properly converted, like Science can. And since they all need a written Quran in order to "access the real [rap of] the Quran." the rap becomes corrupted also... Furthermore, one must learn the Arabic it used and disregard the vagueness of it in order to pretend to have a full message at all.

That makes sense, since Muhammad didn't write it, but the Publishers said "some of his companions" told them what was authoritative quotes.. It was then supposedly not corrupted by him[other than what he said he got tricked into saying by evil forces, the part about angels being "children" of Yahweh/Allah instead of just will-less robots to be owned as property] but it was and is corrupted by all people who publish it in written form or who read it without being educated about it Perfectly and bringing in their cultural interpretations to the rap. If the Quran is just the sound, then it is as empty as sound.

This is the problem with Bibliolatry, even a Bibliolatry that tries to pretend to be better by being more Oral/Vocal-focused.

Still, why the use/reliance of/on Bibliolatry instead of Perfect Education? The problem with Bibliolatry is that Bibliolatry is by it's very nature it's own contradiction.
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Old 02-25-2016, 01:40 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The "trinity" was probably a later concept, but it is nevertheless compiled based on a combination of the existing three elements which is already in the NT.
Mark 12:29. Jesus never said that God is three.

Quote:
It is the same with the Shahada which is a later concept which is not in the original Quran.
Every time you open your mouth about Islam, you expose your ignorance about Islam. Shahada is not "later concept" but it has been with the Muslims from at least the first day of their calender. It was openly and loudly recited by Bilal when the very first masjid building was built at Quba.

[/quote]But the essential elements of the Shahada are already in the Quran.
It is only for efficiency sake that later Muslims combined the already existing elements in the Quran to come up with a combinations and give it a new term.[/quote] Not "later" Muslims but it has been here with even those Muslims who were with Muhammad.

You would make a very poor teacher of Islam judging by what you write here about Islam.


Quote:
Note it is the mark of human intelligence and progress to find new combinations and patterns in already existing elements and to make good use of the new found patterns. This is happening all over in Science, and all other fields of human knowledge.
So it is not an issue with theologians to come up with new combinations of elements to conceptualize new concepts, e.g. 'Trinity' 'Shahada' '5 Pillars' without distorting its original meanings an intentions.
Shahada does not fall in that category. 5 pillers and trinity, yes, but not the Shahada.

Quote:
As far as the NT of Jesus is concerned, there is no corruption relative to any other texts.
The NT is an improved version of the OT with its overriding pacifist maxims, e.g. 'love thy enemies' 'give the other cheek' etc.
There is no such thing as "the NT of Jesus". You are wrong here. NT is not just the preachings of Jesus but of Paul as well.

Quote:
There is nothing wrong with the concept of the 'Trinity'.
Trinity concept is against the teachings of Jesus (Mark 12:29).


Quote:
What Muhammad did was [not correct] but condemn the OT and NT to shine his own.
False accusation!

Quote:
In the essential elements of spirituality, the Quran is the opposite of the Bible in terms of being compassionate to non-believers.
Yeah, Bible was "compasionate" to non-believers in the Sinai desert. Have you read Exodus in the Bible?

Quote:
The NT has an overriding pacifist maxim of 'love they enemies' while the Quran has an overriding no-holds-barred maxim of 'kill non-Muslim wherever you find them' where necessary.
The Qur'an does nothing opposite to the Bible. It is really stupid to claim that the Qur'an has overriding no-holds-barred maxim of 'kill non-Muslim wherever you find them'. This statement in its entirety is nothing but ignorance about the Qur'an or a complete lie.

In the Bible, all idol worshippers were killed by Israeltes (including the 3000 golden calf worshippers). In the Qur'an, Muslims did not kill all the idol worshippers. They killed only those who were attacking them and trying to kill them. The overriding maxim in the Qur'an is, live in peace with them if they live in peace with you and there should no hostility unless they are hostile to you, persecute you and oppress you.6

Quote:
So Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. Even the Torah and Gospels foretell Muhammad.

Muslims believed in a distorted form of the original NT. Because the Quran was plagiarized and leverage on the OT and NT it has no choice but to accept the existence of Jesus.
However it was the Quran which changed the correct concepts relating to Jesus as 'Son' [not biological] to some thing else to suit their beliefs.
There is no way Muhammad was intentionally preaching for Christianity but rather Christians are slayed and oppressed by SOME evil prone Muslims wherever possible. Note the removal of Christians from the Saudi Peninsula then and now all over the Middle East. This is a fact no one can deny.
22:44 is enough to expose your ignorance.
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Old 02-25-2016, 02:42 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Mark 12:29. Jesus never said that God is three.
I said the 'Trinity' was a later concept by Christians.
The Trinity do not imply there are three Gods.
Christianity is based on monotheism, i.e. there is ONLY ONE GOD.
However God can express itself in three forms, i.e. Father, Holy Spirit and Son.
It is like H20 in the form of Water, Ice, Cloud.


Quote:
Every time you open your mouth about Islam, you expose your ignorance about Islam. Shahada is not "later concept" but it has been with the Muslims from at least the first day of their calender. It was openly and loudly recited by Bilal when the very first masjid building was built at Quba.


Not "later" Muslims but it has been here with even those Muslims who were with Muhammad.

The two phrases are in the Quran from the start but
there is no term 'Shahada' in the Quran.
"Later" meant it was formed after the Quran was compiled.
Did Bilal used the concept 'Shahada'??


Quote:
Shahada does not fall in that category. 5 pillers and trinity, yes, but not the Shahada.
You should research on 'conceptualization of concepts' and their combinations.
The "Shahada" is a conceptualized term represented by the combination of two phrases from different parts of the Quran.
There is no specific records of when the Shahada as it is termed was were conceptualized and used.



Quote:
There is no such thing as "the NT of Jesus". You are wrong here. NT is not just the preachings of Jesus but of Paul as well.
I meant the NT as related to Jesus in contrast to the OT which was pre-Jesus period.

Quote:
Trinity concept is against the teachings of Jesus (Mark 12:29).
This is only because you have a wrong understanding what the Trinity meant spiritually.


Quote:
Yeah, Bible was "compasionate" to non-believers in the Sinai desert. Have you read Exodus in the Bible?
Note, to be specific, I was referring to Christianity all the time, thus I was referring to the NT and not the OT.

Quote:
The Qur'an does nothing opposite to the Bible. It is really stupid to claim that the Qur'an has overriding no-holds-barred maxim of 'kill non-Muslim wherever you find them'. This statement in its entirety is nothing but ignorance about the Qur'an or a complete lie.
Note 22:39,
22:39. Sanction [permission authorised] is given unto those [Muslims] who fight because they [Muslims] have been wronged [by infidels and hypocrites]; and Allah is indeed Able to give them [Muslims] victory;


This is an no-holds-barred overriding maxim to kill non-Muslim if they have been wronged [ a vague term].
In contrast the NT exhort Christians to 'love their enemies' 'give the other cheek'.
This is an obvious example the Quran is in total opposite to the Christian's NT.

Quote:
In the Bible, all idol worshippers were killed by Israeltes (including the 3000 golden calf worshippers). In the Qur'an, Muslims did not kill all the idol worshippers. They killed only those who were attacking them and trying to kill them. The overriding maxim in the Qur'an is, live in peace with them if they live in peace with you and there should no hostility unless they are hostile to you, persecute you and oppress you.6
Your above point is irrelevant.
Note the point is comparing Christians whose overriding texts are in the NT not the OT.

Quote:
22:44 is enough to expose your ignorance.
Note sure what are trying to prove with 22:44??
22:44. (And) the dwellers in Midian. And Moses was denied; but I indulged the disbelievers [infidels] a long while, then I seized them [infidels], and how (terrible) was My abhorrence!


22:44 revealed Allah is a God that promote the worst kind of hatred, i.e. abhorrence of infidels.
This is one of the evil laden elements within the 55% of evil verses.
The point is Allah's abhorrence reinforce hatred on non-Muslims and this will influence SOME evil prone Muslims to hate infidels and commit terrible evil and violence on them when compounded with the tons of other evil laden verses.


This is a common thing and event in human behaviors.
Whoever [group, race, believers] are condemned by the leader or person of authority, SOME zealous followers will be influenced to hate the condemned. This is what happened with the Jews based on Hitler campaign of hate speeches on the Jews. The same is happening in North Korea where Americans and Westerners are hated in that country.


This is reality on the ground where SOME evil prone Muslims are brainwashed to hate Jews, Christians, and other non-Muslims by the evil laden verses in the Quran such as 22:44.
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Old 02-25-2016, 02:57 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Where the heck you get the idea Christianity state "God emptied Himself into a body of a man" [Jesus]. There is no such thing, this is your crazy thought.
Find out from the Christians who think that Jesus is God. How did they reach this conclusion? They believe that God emptied Himself into a man who then walked on earth. That is the impression they got from Paul's teachings.

Quote:
Note I have explained the concept of 'spirit' using the piece of ice and Ocean analogy.
Did you read that?
Tell me why that is wrong.
I did not read your analogy but from your this last statement, it is obvious that you are llkening "spirit" to some kind of substance that you can see, touch and perhaps even drink in a pub or club. Spirit is nothing like such substance.

Keep responding to me about "spirit" and through the spirit I will take you to God the same way. The day you believe in spirit, you will have to believe in God. The day you understand spirit, I will know that you are close to understanding God.

At the moment you do not understand God because you do not understand "spirit".

Quote:
Reality is you have failed to understand what I meant by 'essence' in this case. You still think it meant 'sperm.'
I don't think like that about "spirit" in the Qur'an. You are once more misunderstanding me and talking nonsense anout me.

Quote:
Some how your understanding of these religious, spiritual and philosophical term is very kindergartenish.
Actually, it is you who are mixing up religious (Qur'anic to be more precise as we are taking bout "spirit" in the Qur'an) terms with human terms.


Quote:
I suggest you update yourself on the meaning of 'spirit' in the philosophical and spiritual perspective as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit
I can now understand your real problem in understanding Islam; you learn it from something else than the Qur'an, and you want me to do the same as you do.

Quote:
Btw, you have not demonstrated what you understand by the term "spirit" as in the Quran.
I am not going to make it easy for you by spoon-feeding you when you can eat and drink yourself. I remember you telling me that I have done it only 6-7 times and you have done it 50++ times. Hell, I am going to take you to task on this one to expose your ignorance about the Qur'an. No way, I am not going to lead the horse to the water when he claims to know his way to the water better than I do. I will do it only once the horse admits that he is ignorant about the way to the water.
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