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Old 02-25-2016, 03:26 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Find out from the Christians who think that Jesus is God. How did they reach this conclusion? They believe that God emptied Himself into a man who then walked on earth. That is the impression they got from Paul's teachings.
Obviously there is a range of thought from different groups of Christians.
Generally the more spiritually matured Christians will not think 'God emptied Himself into a man' which is ridiculous.

Quote:
I did not read your analogy but from your this last statement, it is obvious that you are llkening "spirit" to some kind of substance that you can see, touch and perhaps even drink in a pub or club. Spirit is nothing like such substance.
If you have not read my analogy, don't jump to conclusion.
You are putting words into my mouth by your narrow thinking.
Spirit is definitely some thing that is opposite to material substance.


I suggest you read the intro part
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit


Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
The English word spirit, from Latin spiritus "breath", has many different meanings and connotations, most of them relating to a non-corporeal substance contrasted with the material body.

Note the Quran also mentioned Allah 'breathe' his spirit into Adam, Mary, and others. Note
21:91 And she who was chaste, therefor We breathed into her (something) of Our spirit and made her and her son a token for (all) peoples.

32:9 Then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His spirit; and appointed for you hearing and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye!
Quote:
Keep responding to me about "spirit" and through the spirit I will take you to God the same way. The day you believe in spirit, you will have to believe in God. The day you understand spirit, I will know that you are close to understanding God.
Whatever you understand of the 'spirit' it is ultimately an illusion.

Quote:
At the moment you do not understand God because you do not understand "spirit".
Both 'God' and 'Spirit' based on your understanding are ultimate an illusion.
Yes, I can understand God to the extent God is impossible to exists as real and human invent the idea of God to deal with an inherent psychological dilemma.


Quote:
I am not going to make it easy for you by spoon-feeding you when you can eat and drink yourself. I remember you telling me that I have done it only 6-7 times and you have done it 50++ times. Hell, I am going to take you to task on this one to expose your ignorance about the Qur'an. No way, I am not going to lead the horse to the water when he claims to know his way to the water better than I do. I will do it only once the horse admits that he is ignorant about the way to the water.
This is weird.
Note this is a discussion board.
Where you criticize the views of others as false, you [if you have intellectual integrity] have an onus to demonstrate your view is true.
By shutting up you are merely lying that you know 'what you don't really know'.


To maintain my intellectual integrity I have posted some verses related to 'spirit' in the Quran plus giving detail explanation and analogy of what is 'spirit.'
You? posted nothing! and claim you know?

There is no issue with me. If you shut up all we need to do is to stop the discussion on this issue.
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Old 02-25-2016, 03:58 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
State it? What is He, a car salesman?
No. He is Teacher.

Quote:
How about just doing what is good and right from the start?
He did right from the start.

Quote:
Since there is imperfection, and imperfection cannot exist around Perfection as it makes the paradoxical Perfection technically imperfect, then this salesman tactic is also imperfect.
You say He is salesman, I say He is Teacher. A teacher tells his pupils to write a word 20 times every day. The pupils fail to do it every day and instead are distracted by something else. The teacher then tells them to not only write the word 1001 times every day but stay behind in the school every day to complete your task. Are you following this?

O.K. Here is the next action that the teacher takes after they had been obeying him. The teacher tells the pupils, you have obeyed me, stayed behind in the school after the normal hour, written the word 1001 times, now go back to your previous routine of writing the word 20 times every day and no nesd to remain in school after the normal school hours. Should the pupils obey the teacher or not this time?

Quote:
But how does your explanation of the mythology of Islam mean that a Quran can be kept but an Injeel could not?
God had given responsibility to the people at the time to protect the Injeel and keep it in their hearts. They failed to do it. When God revealed the Qur'an, He declared that He will guard it this time and in doing so He is going to protect, and preserve what was in the earlier relevations in their purity. It is quite simple, isn't it ?

Quote:
If the Quran was utterly destroyed, no one would even be able to tell that it broke it's promise. But there are already many Qurans with various interpretations, so the promise was already broken. As one cannot tell a "true Injeel" one cannot tell a "true Quran."
You forget here that the Qur'an is not going to be destroyed. It is not only guarded by God but there are thousands if not millions of people who have memorized the Qur'an word by word and letter by letter in its entirety and in the language it was revealed. Not even an iota is going to change in it forever. If any translation is wrong, it can be corrected using the Qur'an in its original language. And we often do this if any word in translation is wrong. In translations, one word of Arabic can be translated in more than one word of English. It doesn't mean wrong translation but we can check with other translation whether they state six or half a dozen. Both translations can be kept for the original word sitta in Arabic
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Old 02-25-2016, 04:38 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Obviously there is a range of thought from different groups of Christians.
Generally the more spiritually matured Christians will not think 'God emptied Himself into a man' which is ridiculous.

If you have not read my analogy, don't jump to conclusion.
You are putting words into my mouth by your narrow thinking.
Spirit is definitely some thing that is opposite to material substance.


I suggest you read the intro part
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit
You learn about spirit from wiki and I learnt it from the Qur'an. Wikipedia is not the Islamic Qur'an.

Quote:
Note this is a discussion board.
Where you criticize the views of others as false, you [if you have intellectual integrity] have an onus to demonstrate your view is true.
By shutting up you are merely lying that you know 'what you don't really know'.
I am not discussing but testing you as you wanted to be tested. You asked for it so I am doing just that.

Quote:
To maintain my intellectual integrity I have posted some verses related to 'spirit' in the Quran plus giving detail explanation and analogy of what is 'spirit.'
You only quoted some verses from the Qur'an with the word "spirit" in them. Anyone can do that. Anyone can just cut and paste these verses. You did not explain what is meant by this word "spirit" in the Qur'an ACCORDING TO THE QUR'AN. Wikipedia is not the Qur'an.

Quote:
You? posted nothing! and claim you know?
I am testing you, as you wanted me to test you. I am examiner here and I won't give you the answer until you submit your answer from the correct text book that you claimed to have read 50+ times.

I promise you, as I stated before,, that I will give you explanation of the word "spirit" in the Qur'an with the explanation FROM THE QUR'AN (the correct text book).

The fact that you are looking for explanations outside the Qur'an, you expose your Qur'anic knowledge to be coming from wikipedia and not the Qur'an.
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Old 02-26-2016, 08:38 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Continuum,

If you are still looking for the explanation of the word "spirit" in the verses of the Qur'an you had quoted, I will give you a clue.

As the "spirit" mentioned in the verses is used to create Adam and Jesus as well, you must now try to understand how Allah creates something or someone. For this purpose you need to read and understand the verses 3:47, 16:40, 19:35 and 40:68. These verses will give you best clue as to what is meant by the "spirit" in your quoted verses of the Qur'an.

Once you have understood the creation process by Allah according to the Qur'an, it will be, God wiling, quite easy for you to find the explanation for "spirit" as to what it is (according to the Qur'an).

That is the best I can do at the moment to help you. If you are still unable to find in the Qur'an as to what is meant by the word "spirit" in your quoted verses of the Qur'an then you will have to admit that you need proper study of the Qur'an. Only then I will get you out of the dark and into light about "spirit".

To be fair to you, even many Muslims are not quite aware of what is"spirit". Many have wrong impression of it, just as the Bible readers have wrong impression of it.
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Old 02-26-2016, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

If you are still looking for the explanation of the word "spirit" in the verses of the Qur'an you had quoted, I will give you a clue.

As the "spirit" mentioned in the verses is used to create Adam and Jesus as well, you must now try to understand how Allah creates something or someone. For this purpose you need to read and understand the verses 3:47, 16:40, 19:35 and 40:68. These verses will give you best clue as to what is meant by the "spirit" in your quoted verses of the Qur'an.

Once you have understood the creation process by Allah according to the Qur'an, it will be, God wiling, quite easy for you to find the explanation for "spirit" as to what it is (according to the Qur'an).

That is the best I can do at the moment to help you. If you are still unable to find in the Qur'an as to what is meant by the word "spirit" in your quoted verses of the Qur'an then you will have to admit that you need proper study of the Qur'an. Only then I will get you out of the dark and into light about "spirit".

To be fair to you, even many Muslims are not quite aware of what is"spirit". Many have wrong impression of it, just as the Bible readers have wrong impression of it.
True there are actually several Arabic words that can be translated to English as Spirit. With out a good knowledge of Qur'anic Arabic it is hard to define what is meant by Spirit. Generally Speaking Ruh is Spirit, but that can also mean the Human soul, Life force, even Angel in a broad sense.

I do not have sufficient knowledge to explain it in an understandable manner, but in very simple terms it is a physical manifestation of Allaah(swt)'s will.
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Old 02-26-2016, 01:37 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
True there are actually several Arabic words that can be translated to English as Spirit. With out a good knowledge of Qur'anic Arabic it is hard to define what is meant by Spirit. Generally Speaking Ruh is Spirit, but that can also mean the Human soul, Life force, even Angel in a broad sense.

I do not have sufficient knowledge to explain it in an understandable manner, but in very simple terms it is a physical manifestation of Allaah(swt)'s will.
I don't think it is that difficult to understand what is ruh in the Arabic Qur'an. It is explained quite clearly in the Qur'an. Yes, the translations have got mixed up because some translators have translated ruh as soul when others have correctly translated it as spirit. Only ruh is spirit and nafs is soul as a general rule. Nafs is personal self and ruh belongs to Allah. Allah has defined "ruh" ("spirit") as HIs Command in creating man (including Adam and Jesus). People who have not studied the Qur'an and have no knowledge of Arabic are going to be reading it wrongly as soul. This is why Continuum can't find the verse that explains "ruh" ("sprit") despite having quoted all the verses in which "ruh" is translated as "spirit". The verse 17:85 explains "ruh" but in some translations it is translated as "soul" and in others "spirit". Spirit is the correct translation. The Command is "kun" (be) and it is. "Kun" is the Command as spirit of creation from Allah. Alhamdulillah (Praise is for Allah)

P.S. I wasn't going to explain to Continuum yet but I had to do it for a fellow believer. Once I realized that you were close but still not quite sure, it was my duty to explain it to you as I understood from the Arabic Qur'an..
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Old 02-26-2016, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I don't think it is that difficult to understand what is ruh in the Arabic Qur'an. It is explained quite clearly in the Qur'an. Yes, the translations have got mixed up because some translators have translated ruh as soul when others have correctly translated it as spirit. Only ruh is spirit and nafs is soul as a general rule. Nafs is personal self and ruh belongs to Allah. Allah has defined "ruh" ("spirit") as HIs Command in creating man (including Adam and Jesus). People who have not studied the Qur'an and have no knowledge of Arabic are going to be reading it wrongly as soul. This is why Continuum can't find the verse that explains "ruh" ("sprit") despite having quoted all the verses in which "ruh" is translated as "spirit". The verse 17:85 explains "ruh" but in some translations it is translated as "soul" and in others "spirit". Spirit is the correct translation. The Command is "kun" (be) and it is. "Kun" is the Command as spirit of creation from Allah. Alhamdulillah (Praise is for Allah)

P.S. I wasn't going to explain to Continuum yet but I had to do it for a fellow believer. Once I realized that you were close but still not quite sure, it was my duty to explain it to you as I understood from the Arabic Qur'an..
Jazakallahu Khair. Although I do read Arabic and my first reading of the Qur'an was in Arabic, I did have some confusion as to why so many translations translate Ruh as Soul.
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Old 02-26-2016, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

If you are still looking for the explanation of the word "spirit" in the verses of the Qur'an you had quoted, I will give you a clue.

As the "spirit" mentioned in the verses is used to create Adam and Jesus as well, you must now try to understand how Allah creates something or someone. For this purpose you need to read and understand the verses 3:47, 16:40, 19:35 and 40:68. These verses will give you best clue as to what is meant by the "spirit" in your quoted verses of the Qur'an.

Once you have understood the creation process by Allah according to the Qur'an, it will be, God wiling, quite easy for you to find the explanation for "spirit" as to what it is (according to the Qur'an).

That is the best I can do at the moment to help you. If you are still unable to find in the Qur'an as to what is meant by the word "spirit" in your quoted verses of the Qur'an then you will have to admit that you need proper study of the Qur'an. Only then I will get you out of the dark and into light about "spirit".

To be fair to you, even many Muslims are not quite aware of what is"spirit". Many have wrong impression of it, just as the Bible readers have wrong impression of it.
I am very well verse with verses 3:47, 16:40, 19:35 and 40:68, "BE and it is." This is because Allah is all-powerful.


There is nothing for you to brag and you are beating round the bushes. To me this topic of 'spirit' is not a complicated issue.
If you correctly explain "spirit" [as discussed here] as in the Quran, it will definitely be the same 'spirit' as the one I am explaining which is accepted universally in all religions and spiritualities.


From the way it goes I believe you will produce a kindergarten explanation of what is spirit.
I am not interested in learning from you at all.
If you want to present your explanation [which I don't expect to be anything special], then do so and I will reconcile whether it agree with my universal understanding of 'spirit.'


In fact, I can introduce a more higher level knowledge of 'spirit.'
Once we have agree [even if do not agree] note the concept of any permanent spirit of God, prophets or humans are ultimately illusory.


1. Within philosophy, Hume stated the spirit of the self is nothing but a bundle of sensations.
Empiricist philosophers, such as Hume and Berkeley, favoured the bundle theory of personal identity
In this theory, "the mind itself, far from being an independent power, is simply 'a bundle of perceptions' without unity or cohesive quality." -wiki


2. In Buddhism, there is no real personal self, i.e. anatta.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta


3. God as a spirit or other is also illusory and is impossible to exists as real.




The above are not based on faith that is relied upon by theists. The above are based on sound and sophisticated philosophical justifications grounded on empirical elements.

Last edited by Continuum; 02-27-2016 at 12:10 AM..
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Old 02-27-2016, 12:23 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Jazakallahu Khair. Although I do read Arabic and my first reading of the Qur'an was in Arabic, I did have some confusion as to why so many translations translate Ruh as Soul.
Generally Nafs=Soul and Ruh=Spirit.


However there are not many translations translate Ruh as Soul.
One is Hilali-Khan;

15:29 "So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him."
Actually Hilali-Khan changed the context and in that context it is correct, i.e. when Allah breathed his 'spirit' into Adam, that portion of Allah's Spirit became the 'soul' in Adam.
The only complain here is Hilali-Khan should not go overboard in changing and adding the context.
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Old 02-27-2016, 02:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Generally Nafs=Soul and Ruh=Spirit.


However there are not many translations translate Ruh as Soul.
One is Hilali-Khan;

15:29 "So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him."
Actually Hilali-Khan changed the context and in that context it is correct, i.e. when Allah breathed his 'spirit' into Adam, that portion of Allah's Spirit became the 'soul' in Adam.
The only complain here is Hilali-Khan should not go overboard in changing and adding the context.
Hilali Khan is not the only one but also Shakir, Sahih International, Sherali etc. They are not translating properly but jumping to the next step. For example, instead of just translating the word "ruh" they go on to soul (soul is created with ruh but ruh is not soul), inspiration from Allah (as ruh is command from Allah, it is inspiration to them), revelation (revelation has commands from Allah so they translate it as revelation). It's more like the commentry from them on "ruh" rather than translation.
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