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Old 03-24-2016, 03:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I would have to talk to them. Maybe they are not really Muslims. Maybe they are afraid to openly leave Islam because of death threats. Maybe they have no idea what is in the Quran and hadiths and pay lip service to being Muslims. I do not know without asking them. But, if they do know what is in the Quran and they do know what Muhammed did, and they still choose to follow Islam and think Muhammed is a perfect example of conduct....they are not good people. Even Hitler loved his dog, I think the saying goes. Evil people occasionally do a good deed. It does not make up for the evil they stand for and do.

No good person thinks a perverted monster is a perfect example to follow. Good people do not choose to follow evil ideologies. Evil people do not choose to follow good ideologies. Contradictions do not exist.
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Old 03-24-2016, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I would have to talk to them. Maybe they are not really Muslims. Maybe they are afraid to openly leave Islam because of death threats. Maybe they have no idea what is in the Quran and hadiths and pay lip service to being Muslims. I do not know without asking them. But, if they do know what is in the Quran and they do know what Muhammed did, and they still choose to follow Islam and think Muhammed is a perfect example of conduct....they are not good people. Even Hitler loved his dog, I think the saying goes. Evil people occasionally do a good deed. It does not make up for the evil they stand for and do.

No good person thinks a perverted monster is a perfect example to follow. Good people do not choose to follow evil ideologies. Evil people do not choose to follow good ideologies. Contradictions do not exist.
However there are people that for some reason do not understand the Qur'an nor Ahadith and actually believe that Muhammad(saws) was a pedophile, committed rape, committed murder and ordered murders. The same people often also fail to understand the Qur'an and believe it contains verses that condone and/or command violence.

I can only pray that one day they will discover the truth and learn that those are misconceptions.

Perhaps a person can not understand Islam and the Qur'an and the Ahadith unless they are first a Muslim.
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Old 03-24-2016, 07:28 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
However there are people that for some reason do not understand the Qur'an nor Ahadith and actually believe that Muhammad(saws) was a pedophile, committed rape, committed murder and ordered murders. The same people often also fail to understand the Qur'an and believe it contains verses that condone and/or command violence.

I can only pray that one day they will discover the truth and learn that those are misconceptions.

Perhaps a person can not understand Islam and the Qur'an and the Ahadith unless they are first a Muslim.
1. Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old child when he was 53 years old according to MANY Islamic sources:

SAHIH AL-BUKHARI

Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)

Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)


Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88)

SAHIH MUSLIM

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3309; see also 3310)

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

SUNAN ABU DAWUD

Aisha said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old.(Sunan Abu Dawud, Number 2116)

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him),and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4915)

SUNAN NASA‘I

… When Hadrat Aisha passed nine years of marriage life, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fell in mortal sickness… ‘A’isha was eighteen years of age at the time when the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away and she remained a widow for forty-eight years till she died at the age of sixty-seven. She saw the rules of four Caliphs in her lifetime. She died on Ramadan 58 A.H. during the Caliphate of Hadrat Amir Mu‘awiya… (Sunan Nasa'i: English translation with Arabic Text, compiled by Imam Abu Abd-ur-Rahman Ahmad Nasa'i, rendered into English by Muhammad Iqbal Siddiqui [Kazi Publication, 121-Zulqarnain Chambers, Gampat Road, Lahore, Pakistan; first edition, 1994], Volume 1, p. 108)

SUNAN IBN-I-MAJAH

1876. ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) is reported to have said: Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) contracted marriage with me while I was (yet) a six years [sic] old girl. Then we arrived at Medina and stayed with Banu Harith b. Khazraj. I fell victim to fever; then my hair (of the head fell off (and became scattered). Then they became plenty and hanged down upto [sic] the earlobes. My mother ‘Umm Ruman came to me while I was (playing) in a swing alongwith [sic] my play-mates. She (the mother) called me loudly. I went to her and I did not know what he [sic] wanted. She seized my hand and stopped me at the door of the house and I was hearing [sic] violently until the agitation of my heart was over. Then she took some water and wiped it over my face and head. Then she admitted me to the house when some woman [sic] of Ansar were present in the house. They said, "You have entered with blessings and good fortune." Then she (the mother) entrusted me to them. So they embellished me and nothing frightened me but Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) (when he came there) in the morning and they (the women) entrusted me to him. On that day, I was a nine years [sic] old girl."

1877. Abdullah (Allah be pleased with him) is reported to have said, "The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) married ‘A’isha while she was a seven years [sic] old girl and took him [sic] to his house as a bride when she was nine years old and he parted with her (after his demise) when she was eighteen years old."

According to Al-Zawa‘id its isnad is sahih in accordance with the condition prescribed by Bukhari, but munqata because Abu ‘Ubaida did not hear from his father. Shu‘ba Abu Hatim and Ibn Hibban mentioned him amongst the authentic and reliable authorities. Tirmidhi in al-Jami’ and al-Mazzi in al-Atraf (has expressed the same opinion). Nasa‘i has transmitted this hadith in al-Sughra from the hadith ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her). (Sunan Ibn-I-Majah, Imam Abdullah Muhammad B. Yazid Ibn-I-Maja Al-Qazwini, English version by Muhammad Tufail Ansari [Kazi Publications, 121-Zulqarnain Chambers, Gampat Road, Lahore Pakistan, first edition, 1995], volume III, pp. 133-134)

IBN HISHAM

He married ‘A’isha in Mecca when she was a child of seven and lived with her in Medina when she was nine or ten. She was the only virgin that he married. Her father, Abu Bakr, married her to him and the apostle gave her four hundred dirhams. (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah (The Life of Muhammad), translated by Alfred Guillaume [Oxford University Press, Karachi, tenth impression 1995], p. 792)

AL-TABARI

In this year also the Messenger of God consummated his marriage with ‘A’ishah. This was in Dhu al-Qa‘dah (May-June 623) eight months after his arrival in Medina according to some accounts, or in Shawwal (April-May 623) seven months after his arrival according to others. He had married her in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadijah. At that time she was six or, according to other accounts, seven years old.

According to ‘Ab al-Hamid b. Bayan al-Sukkari- Muhammad b. Yazid- Isma‘il (that is, Ibn Abi Khalid)- ‘Abd al-Rahman b. Abi al-Dahhak- a man from Quraysh- ‘Abd al-Rahman b. Muhammad: ‘Abd Allah b. Safwan together with another person came to ‘A’ishah, and ‘A’ishah said (to the latter), "O so-and-so, have you heard what Hafsah has been saying?" He said, "Yes, O Mother of the Faithful." ‘Abd Allah b. Safwan asked her, "What is that?" She replied, "There are nine special features in me that have not been in any woman, except for what God bestowed on Maryam bt. ‘Imran. By God, I do not say this to exalt myself over any of my companions." "What are these?" he asked. She replied, "The angel brought down my likeness; the Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine; he married me when I was a virgin, no other man having shared me with him; inspiration came to him when he and I were in a single blanket; I was one of the dearest people to him, a verse of the Qur’an was revealed concerning me when the community was almost destroyed; I saw Gabriel when none of his other wives saw him; and he was taken (that is, died) in his house when there was nobody with him but the angel and myself."

Umm Ruman said that al-Mut‘im b. ‘Adi had asked ‘A’ishah’s hand for his son, but Abu Bakr had not promised anything. Abu Bakr left and went to Mut‘im while his wife, mother of the son for whom he had asked ‘A’ishah’s hand, was with him. She said, "O son of Abu Quhafah, perhaps we could marry our son to your daughter if you could make him leave his religion and bring him in to the religion which you practice." He turned to her husband al-Mut‘im and said, "What is she saying?" He replied, "She says [what you have heard]." Abu Bakr left, [realizing that] God had [just] removed the problem he had in his mind. He said to Khawlah, "Call the Messenger of God." She called him and he came. Abu Bakr married [‘A’ishah] to him when she was [only] six years old. (The History of Al-Tabari: The Last Years of the Prophet, translated and annotated by Ismail K. Poonawala [State University of New York Press, Albany 1990], Volume IX, pp. 129-130)

‘A’ishah states: We came to Medina and Abu Bakr took up quarters in al-Sunh among the Banu al-Harith b. al-Khazraj. The Messenger of God came to our house and men and women of the Ansar gathered around him. My mother came to me WHILE I WAS BEING SWUNG ON A SWING BETWEEN TWO BRANCHES AND GOT ME DOWN. Jumaymah, my nurse, took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door, she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought [in] while the Messenger of God was sitting on a bed in our house. [My mother] made me sit on his lap and said, "These are your relatives. May God bless you with them and bless them with you!" Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me. Only Sa‘d b. ‘Ubaidah sent a bowl of food which he used to send to the Messenger of God.

‘Ali b. Nasr- ‘Abd al-Samad b. ‘Abd al-Warith- ‘Abd al-Warith b. ‘Abd al-Samad- his father- Aban al-‘Attar- Hisham b. ‘Urwah- ‘Urwah: He wrote to ‘Abd al-Malik b. Marwan stating that he had written to him about Khadijah bt. Khuwaylid, asking him about when she died. She died three years or close to that before the Messenger of God’s departure from Mecca, and he married ‘A’ishah after Khadijah’s death. The Messenger of God saw ‘A’ishah twice- [first when] it was said to him that she was his wife (she was six years old at that time), and later [when] he consummated she was nine years old.

(The report goes back to Hisham b. Muhammad. See above, I, 1766). Then the Messenger of God married ‘A’ishah bt. Abi Bakr, whose name is ‘Atiq b. Abi Quhafah, who is ‘Uthman, and is called ‘Abd al-Rahman b. ‘Uthman b. ‘Amir b. ‘Amir b. Ka‘b b. Sa‘d b. Taym b. Murrah: [The Prophet] married her three years before the Emigration, when she was seven years old, and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old, after he had emigrated to Medina in Shawwal. She was eighteen years old when he died. The Messenger of God did not marry any maiden except her. (The History of al-Tabari, Volume IX, pp. 130-131)

‘A’ishah, daughter of Abu Bakr.
Her mother was Umm Ruman bt. ‘Umayr b. ‘Amr, of the Banu Duhman b. al-Harith b. Ghanm b. Malik b. Kinanah.
The Prophet married ‘A’ishah in Shawwal in the tenth year after the [beginning of his] prophethood, three years before Emigration. He consummated the marriage in Shawwal, eight months after Emigration. On the day he consummated the marriage with her she was nine years old.

IBN KATHIR

Yunus b. Bukayr stated, from Hisham b. ‘Urwa, from his father who said, "The Messenger of God (SAAS) married ‘A’isha three years after (the death of) Khadija.At that time (of the contract) ‘A’isha had been a girl of six. When he married her she was nine. The Messenger of God (SAAS) died when ‘A’isha was a girl of eighteen. "

This tradition is considered gharib (unique in this line).

Al-Bukhari had related, from ‘Ubayd b. Isma‘il, from Abu Usama, from Hisham b. ‘Urwa, from his father, who said, "Khadija died three years before the emigration of the Prophet (SAAS). He allowed a couple of years or so to pass after that, and then he contracted marriage with ‘A’isha when she was six, thereafter consummating marriage with her when she was nine years old."

The hafiz Ya‘qub b. Sufyan stated, "Al-Hajjaj related to us, that Hammad related to him, from Hisham b. ‘Urwa, from his father, from ‘A’isha, who said, ‘The Messenger of God (SAAS), contracted marriage with me (after) Khadija’s death and before his emigration from Mecca, when I was six years old. After we arrived in Medina some women came to me while I was playing on a swing; my hair was like that of a boy. They dressed me up and put make-up on me, then took me to the Messenger of God (SAAS), and he consummated our marriage. I was a girl of nine.’"

IBN QAYYIM

Next, the Prophet… married Um Abdallah, Aishah, as-Siddiqah (the truthful one), daughter of as-Siddiq (the truthful one) Abu Bakr ibn Abi Qu’hafah, whom Allah has exonerated from above the seven heavens. ‘Aishah bint Abu Bakr was the beloved wife of the Prophet… The angel showed Aishah… to the Prophet… while she was wrapped in a piece of silk cloth, before he married her, and said to him. "This is your wife." The Prophet… married Aishah… during the lunar month of Shawwal, when she was six, and consummated the marriage in the first year after the Hijrah, in the month of Shawwal, when she was nine. The Prophet… did not marry any virgin, except Aishah… and the revelation never came to him while he was under the blanket with any of his wives, except Aishah. (Ibn Qayyim Al-Juaziyyah, Zad-ul Ma’ad fi Hadyi Khairi-l ‘Ibad (Provisions for the Hereafter, From the Guidance of Allah’s Best Worshipper), translated by Jalal Abualrub, edited by Alaa Mencke & Shaheed M. Ali [Madinah Publishers & Distributors, Orlando, Fl: First edition, December 2000], Volume I, pp. 157-158)

MARTIN LINGS

During the same year that followed Khadijah’s death, the Prophet dreamed that he saw a man who was carrying someone wrapped in a piece of silk. The man said to him: "This is thy wife, so uncover her." The Prophet lifted the silk and there was ‘A’ishah. But ‘A’ishah was only six years old, and he had passed his fiftieth year. Moreover Abu Bakr had promised her to Mut‘im for his son Jubayr. The Prophet simply said to himself: "If this be from God, He will bring it to pass." …

Meantime Abu Bakr approached Mut‘im, who was persuaded without difficulty to forgo the marriage of ‘A’ishah to his son; and, some months after the marriage of Sawdah, ‘A’ishah also became the Prophet’s wife, through a marriage contracted by him and her father, at which she herself was not present. She said afterwards, that she had her first inkling of her new status when one day she was playing with her friends outside, not far from their house, and her mother came and too her by the hand and led her indoors, telling her that henceforth she must not go out to play, and that her friends must come to her instead. ‘A’ishah dimly guessed the reason, though her mother did not immediately tell her that she was married; and apart from having to play in their courtyard instead of in the roads, her life continued as before. (Lings, Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources [Inner Traditions, International, Ltd.; Rochester Vermont, 1983], pp. 105-106)

The Prophet and his daughters now went to live with Sawda in her new house; and after a month or two it was decided that ‘A’ishah’s wedding should take place.She was then only nine years old, a child of remarkable beauty, as might have been expected from her parentage…

Small preparations were made for the wedding- not enough, at any rate for ‘A’ishah to have had a sense of a great and solemn occasion, and shortly before they were due to leave the house she had slipped out into the courtyard to play with her passing friend. In her own words: "I was playing on a see-saw and my long streaming hair was disheveled. They came and took me from my play and made me ready."

Abu Bakr had bought some fine red-striped cloth from Bahrain and it had been made into a wedding-dress for her. In this they now clothed her. Then her mother took her to the newly built house where some women of the Helpers were waiting for her outside the door. They greeted her with the words "For good and for happiness- may all be well!" and led her into the presence of the Prophet. He stood their smiling and combed her hair and decked her with ornaments. Unlike his other marriages, at this there was no wedding feast… then they all went their ways, and the bridegroom and the bride were left together.

For the last three years scarcely a day had passed by without one or more of ‘A’ishah’s friends coming to play with her in the courtyard adjoining her father’s house. Her removal to the Prophet’s house changed nothing in this respect. Friends now came every day to visit her in her own apartment – new friends made since her arrival in Medina and also some of the old ones whose parents, like hers, had emigrated. "I would be playing with my dolls," she said, "with the girls who were my friends, and the Prophet would come in and they would steal out of the house and he would go out after them and bring them back, for he was pleased for my sake to have them there." Sometimes he would say "Stay where ye are" before they had time to move. He would also join in their games sometimes, FOR HE LOVED CHILDREN [Sam- meaning Aisha was only a child like them] and had often played with his own daughters. The dolls of puppets had many different roles. "One day," said ‘A’ishah, "the Prophet came in when I was playing with the dolls and he said: ‘O ‘A’ishah, whatever game is this?’ I said: ‘It is Solomon’s horses,’ and he laughed." But sometimes as he came in he would simply screen himself with his cloak so as not to disturb them. (Ibid., pp. 132-134)

SAIF-UR-RAHMAN AL-MUBARAKPURI

3. 'Aishah bint Abu Bakr: He married her in the eleventh year of Prophethood, a year after his marriage to Sawdah, and two years and five months before Al-Hijra.She was six years old when he married her. However, he did not consummate the marriage with her till Shawwal seven months after Al-Hijra, and that was in Madinah. She was nine then. She was the only virgin he married, and the most beloved creature to him. As a woman she was the most learnèd woman in jurisprudence. (Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum (THE SEALED NECTAR) Biography of the Noble Prophet, [Maktaba Dar-us-Salam Publishers & Distributors, First Edition 1995], "The Prophetic Household", p. 485)
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Old 03-24-2016, 07:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
However there are people that for some reason do not understand the Qur'an nor Ahadith and actually believe that Muhammad(saws) was a pedophile, committed rape, committed murder and ordered murders. The same people often also fail to understand the Qur'an and believe it contains verses that condone and/or command violence.

I can only pray that one day they will discover the truth and learn that those are misconceptions.

Perhaps a person can not understand Islam and the Qur'an and the Ahadith unless they are first a Muslim.
2. Muhammed was a monster that would attack villages with his gang. Then they would slaughter the men and boys and then he and 'allah would encourage the men to mass rape the women. Muhammed even participated. Then Muhammed and his gang would pass around the women like party favors. Then, after raping them, these monsters would enslave the women and girls they raped, or even sell them.

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)

The Apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." (Abu Dawud 2150, also Muslim 3433)

"O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do coitus interruptus. A soul that which Allah has destined to exist will surely come into existence.” (Bukhari 34:432)

"We went out with Allah's Messenger on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger, and he said: It does not matter" (Sahih Muslim 3371)

"Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham/Hisham 693)

I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: “Give me that girl.” (Sahih Muslim 4345)

Safiyah was taken to Muhammad’s tent. Muhammad wanted to have sex with her on that very night, only hours after torturing to death her husband. She resisted his advances. That night Abu Ayyub al-Ansari guarded the tent of Muhammad. Muhammad saw Abu Ayyub & asked him why he was there; he said: "I was afraid for you with this young lady. You killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives, I was really afraid for you on her account". (Ibn Ishaq, p. 766)

The apostle gave Ali a girl called Rayta; and he gave Uthman a girl called Zaynab; and he gave Umar a girl whom Umar gave to his son Abdullah. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 878)

Quran 4:24. Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess.

"Allah's Apostle said to me, "Have you got married O Jabir?" I replied, "Yes." He asked "What, a virgin or a matron?" I replied, "Not a virgin but a matron." He said, "Why did you not marry a young girl who would have fondled with you?" (Bukhari 59:382)
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Old 03-24-2016, 07:47 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,368 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
However there are people that for some reason do not understand the Qur'an nor Ahadith and actually believe that Muhammad(saws) was a pedophile, committed rape, committed murder and ordered murders. The same people often also fail to understand the Qur'an and believe it contains verses that condone and/or command violence.

I can only pray that one day they will discover the truth and learn that those are misconceptions.

Perhaps a person can not understand Islam and the Qur'an and the Ahadith unless they are first a Muslim.
3. Muhammed ordered many people to be murdered.

List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad - WikiIslam

The original website cannot be accessed. It was taken down because of relentless death threats by Muslims.
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Old 03-24-2016, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Point proven.

There are people that do not know what the ahadith are nor understand the Qur'an and have therefore formed very erroneous misconceptions.
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Old 03-24-2016, 09:21 PM
 
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Point proven.

There are people that do not know what the ahadith are nor understand the Qur'an and have therefore formed very erroneous misconceptions.
Except that I am copying and pasting from the hadiths and Quran. If I am posting false verses, by all means....CORRECT THEM!
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Old 03-24-2016, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Except that I am copying and pasting from the hadiths and Quran. If I am posting false verses, by all means....CORRECT THEM!

All you have shown me is you have no understanding of Isanad, Authenticity and reliability.

Kathir, and Ishaq are not Hadith.

The Ahadith that pass through Hisham while having high authenticity (Meaning we are certain Hisham wrote them) they have questionable reliability as Hisham was not born until nealy 15 years after the death of Muhammad(saws) and was no more than 12 years old when Aisha died, He did not write his memories until he was over 70 years old and his memory was very questionable and sometimes seemed fabricated as noted by his contemporaries.

Ahadith can not be taken as fact, none are any better than the memory of the witness that first wrote them down and all are subject to error. One needs to follow the Isnads if any and try to find additional witnesses of the events depicted and then make a value judgement on the basis of the findings.

the primary usage of Ahadith are to find if there is any precedents established for Islamic Jurisprudence.

Now if you can show verifiable Isnad on those Ahadith you quoted, we can probably establish a level of reliability.

The Ahadith regarding Aisha are unique as none of them have any substantiated witnesses to support them. they are left to stand because they are the only mention of Aisha that exists.
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Old 03-25-2016, 02:55 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,368 times
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
All you have shown me is you have no understanding of Isanad, Authenticity and reliability.

Kathir, and Ishaq are not Hadith.

The Ahadith that pass through Hisham while having high authenticity (Meaning we are certain Hisham wrote them) they have questionable reliability as Hisham was not born until nealy 15 years after the death of Muhammad(saws) and was no more than 12 years old when Aisha died, He did not write his memories until he was over 70 years old and his memory was very questionable and sometimes seemed fabricated as noted by his contemporaries.

Ahadith can not be taken as fact, none are any better than the memory of the witness that first wrote them down and all are subject to error. One needs to follow the Isnads if any and try to find additional witnesses of the events depicted and then make a value judgement on the basis of the findings.

the primary usage of Ahadith are to find if there is any precedents established for Islamic Jurisprudence.

Now if you can show verifiable Isnad on those Ahadith you quoted, we can probably establish a level of reliability.

The Ahadith regarding Aisha are unique as none of them have any substantiated witnesses to support them. they are left to stand because they are the only mention of Aisha that exists.
I get all this from Islamic websites. And I could say the same for the Quran, which appears to be a work which was authored and edited by the Arabs in Syria and/or Iraq which had several variant readings that were destroyed, and which took several centuries to appear in the final form available today. Hardly the direct word from some god.

The bottom line is that what I posted is what Muslims the world over believe. When Islam tells me all of what I posted is unreliable, then I'll consider it.
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Old 03-25-2016, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
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Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I get all this from Islamic websites. And I could say the same for the Quran, which appears to be a work which was authored and edited by the Arabs in Syria and/or Iraq which had several variant readings that were destroyed, and which took several centuries to appear in the final form available today. Hardly the direct word from some god.

The bottom line is that what I posted is what Muslims the world over believe. When Islam tells me all of what I posted is unreliable, then I'll consider it.
Most Muslim do not read the Ahadith and those that do are usually aware that before even begining to read 1 Hadith they should complete a course in "The Science of Hadith" and have a working knowledge od Isnad, Authenticity and reliability.

A study of Ahadith is not about learning the meanings and interpretations it is about learning how to verify the Reliability and Authenticity of them and learning why each of the accepted compilers rated each as they did.


Islam may be unique in this matter as everything that is allegedly related to Muhammad(saws) has been saved this includes dubious statement we are certain must be fraudulent. The reason for that is because Islam is all about personal responsibility. We as individuals have the responsibility to seek out proof and verification. Also even if every scholar to date agreed a Hadith is fraudulent, there will always be a possibility they may all be wrong.

When studying Ahadith we can and should seek out the opinions of earlier scholars and learn what they based their opinions on, hot accept them but use them as starting points for our own investigation.

Using just the ahadith relating to Aisha you will find opinions ranging from They are probably what Aisha actually said to they are metaphors relating to her purity and innocence to Aisha was an old woman who in her Old age fabricated Stories that she was married to Muhammad(saws) some scholars, primarly Shi'tte scholars believe she was a Jewish woman who hated Muhammad (saws) to Aisha never existed the stories relating to her were fabrications written by Christians during the Crusades.

My own belief to date is the Ahadith attributed to her were not her own words but were metaphors written to show the innocence and Purity of all of Muhammad(saws) wives. That is my opinion to this point but It may change as I become more knowledgeable about ahadith. At the moment most of the scholastic writings I have studied support the hypothesis they are actually metaphorical descriptions of Aisha and not her words. As I study more I may discover I am in error Astagfirullah
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