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Old 03-25-2016, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juju33312
3. Muhammed ordered many people to be murdered.

List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad - WikiIslam
List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad - WikiIslam
The original website cannot be accessed. It was taken down because of relentless death threats by Muslims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Point proven.

There are people that do not know what the ahadith are nor understand the Qur'an and have therefore formed very erroneous misconceptions.
You are too quick in jumping to conclusion in dismissing the link.

The list above contain 43 incidents.
While some of the incidents refer to Hisham, Ishaq and the Sira, most of the incidents are referred from the acceptable Hadiths from Bukhari, Dawud, Sahih and from the Quran.
Suggest you read the whole list instead of 1 or 2 point in the beginning.

Personally I do not believe the Ahadiths should be given any divine authority or by itself represent Islam but should merely be used a guide. Even then whatever is acceptable in the Ahadith, they MUST conform with what is in the Quran.

Now, the reality is 90%++ of Muslims [Sunni, Shia and others] accept the Ahadith [authenticated by the various groups] as carrying Divine authority and considered the Ahadith as a critical part of Islam.
Since these 90%++ of Muslims accept and insist the Ahadith as divine they must face the liabilities of the evil element in the Ahadiths.

The 'Science' [it is pseudoscience] of the Hadith may enable some filtering but whatever is filtered out of such a crude process cannot be even reasonable accurate nor reliable.
Ultimately whatever the Hadith, the matn must comply with the Quran.

Personally, I believe for Muslims to be more authentic to Islam, they should not claim the Ahadith has any divine authority. Better still if they reject the Ahadith totally like what Khalif and his peers are doing.
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Old 03-26-2016, 05:36 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I get all this from Islamic websites. And I could say the same for the Quran, which appears to be a work which was authored and edited by the Arabs in Syria and/or Iraq which had several variant readings that were destroyed, and which took several centuries to appear in the final form available today. Hardly the direct word from some god.

The bottom line is that what I posted is what Muslims the world over believe. When Islam tells me all of what I posted is unreliable, then I'll consider it.
Most Muslim do not read the Ahadith and those that do are usually aware that before even begining to read 1 Hadith they should complete a course in "The Science of Hadith" and have a working knowledge od Isnad, Authenticity and reliability.

A study of Ahadith is not about learning the meanings and interpretations it is about learning how to verify the Reliability and Authenticity of them and learning why each of the accepted compilers rated each as they did.


Islam may be unique in this matter as everything that is allegedly related to Muhammad(saws) has been saved this includes dubious statement we are certain must be fraudulent. The reason for that is because Islam is all about personal responsibility. We as individuals have the responsibility to seek out proof and verification. Also even if every scholar to date agreed a Hadith is fraudulent, there will always be a possibility they may all be wrong.

When studying Ahadith we can and should seek out the opinions of earlier scholars and learn what they based their opinions on, hot accept them but use them as starting points for our own investigation.

Using just the ahadith relating to Aisha you will find opinions ranging from They are probably what Aisha actually said to they are metaphors relating to her purity and innocence to Aisha was an old woman who in her Old age fabricated Stories that she was married to Muhammad(saws) some scholars, primarly Shi'tte scholars believe she was a Jewish woman who hated Muhammad (saws) to Aisha never existed the stories relating to her were fabrications written by Christians during the Crusades.

My own belief to date is the Ahadith attributed to her were not her own words but were metaphors written to show the innocence and Purity of all of Muhammad(saws) wives. That is my opinion to this point but It may change as I become more knowledgeable about ahadith. At the moment most of the scholastic writings I have studied support the hypothesis they are actually metaphorical descriptions of Aisha and not her words. As I study more I may discover I am in error Astagfirullah
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are too quick in jumping to conclusion in dismissing the link.

The list above contain 43 incidents.
While some of the incidents refer to Hisham, Ishaq and the Sira, most of the incidents are referred from the acceptable Hadiths from Bukhari, Dawud, Sahih and from the Quran.
Suggest you read the whole list instead of 1 or 2 point in the beginning.

Personally I do not believe the Ahadiths should be given any divine authority or by itself represent Islam but should merely be used a guide. Even then whatever is acceptable in the Ahadith, they MUST conform with what is in the Quran.

Now, the reality is 90%++ of Muslims [Sunni, Shia and others] accept the Ahadith [authenticated by the various groups] as carrying Divine authority and considered the Ahadith as a critical part of Islam.
Since these 90%++ of Muslims accept and insist the Ahadith as divine they must face the liabilities of the evil element in the Ahadiths.

The 'Science' [it is pseudoscience] of the Hadith may enable some filtering but whatever is filtered out of such a crude process cannot be even reasonable accurate nor reliable.
Ultimately whatever the Hadith, the matn must comply with the Quran.

Personally, I believe for Muslims to be more authentic to Islam, they should not claim the Ahadith has any divine authority. Better still if they reject the Ahadith totally like what Khalif and his peers are doing.
Nearly all of the Ahadith regarding Aisha in the compilations of Bukhari, Muslim and Dawud trace their Isnad back to Hisham. The name Hisham pops up several times such as the Hisham who was a Student of Ishaq and reconstructed Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" which is not the same Hisham Bukhari traces the Ahadith back to.

I really doubt you will find many Muslims that accept Ahadith as divine. they are the source of sunnah and Sirat but are not divine and not the word of Allaah(swt) Except for the 40 al-Qudsi Ahadith. I am not aware of any Muslim who believes the Ahadith are divine. (I will admit that there probably are some, although I do not know how they arrive at that conclusion))

The "science of Hadith" refers to the methodology used to evaluate theIsnad, Authenticity and Reliability of each Hadith. Bukhari is the one who set down the basic methodology and criteria. For example Isnad has to contain an unbeoken chain of verifiable narrators back to the original witness.. The Authenticity is determined by the amount of proof that exists to prove the named witness actually existed and actually did write or otherwise pass down what he had personally witnessed. The level of Authenticity relate to how weel it is proven the witnessed existed and is the actual source of what he/she is believed to have witnessed. The level of reliabiity is detwrmined by the number of independent authenticate witnesses reported an event. A single witness is basically unacceptable, the more witnesses the higher the reliability but if even one witness does not state the same thing the level of reliability drops. The highest level of reliatility is there are 4 or more witnesses and all in exact agreement. an example are 7 ahadith relating to dogs. I am going by memory so this is a brief synopsis. Muhammad(saws) was asked if there were any animals it was permissable to kill on site. He named I believe 5 animals. The seven witnesses are in agreement about 4 of them however the 5th one 6 of the witnesses reported it was "Rabid Dogs" the 7 witness just says dogs. This differing opinion drops the level of reliability, we can be fairly certain Muhammad(saws) said Rabid dogs, but can not be absolutely certain because one witness remembered something different.


A Muslim really has no business quoting a Hadith as fact, unless they them self have verified the levels of Authenticity and Reliability and can prove it is true. (Just my opinion)
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Old 03-27-2016, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,587,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Nearly all of the Ahadith regarding Aisha in the compilations of Bukhari, Muslim and Dawud trace their Isnad back to Hisham. The name Hisham pops up several times such as the Hisham who was a Student of Ishaq and reconstructed Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" which is not the same Hisham Bukhari traces the Ahadith back to.

The "science of Hadith" refers to the methodology used to evaluate theIsnad, Authenticity and Reliability of each Hadith. Bukhari is the one who set down the basic methodology and criteria. For example Isnad has to contain an unbeoken chain of verifiable narrators back to the original witness.. The Authenticity is determined by the amount of proof that exists to prove the named witness actually existed and actually did write or otherwise pass down what he had personally witnessed. The level of Authenticity relate to how weel it is proven the witnessed existed and is the actual source of what he/she is believed to have witnessed. The level of reliabiity is detwrmined by the number of independent authenticate witnesses reported an event. A single witness is basically unacceptable, the more witnesses the higher the reliability but if even one witness does not state the same thing the level of reliability drops. The highest level of reliatility is there are 4 or more witnesses and all in exact agreement. an example are 7 ahadith relating to dogs. I am going by memory so this is a brief synopsis. Muhammad(saws) was asked if there were any animals it was permissable to kill on site. He named I believe 5 animals. The seven witnesses are in agreement about 4 of them however the 5th one 6 of the witnesses reported it was "Rabid Dogs" the 7 witness just says dogs. This differing opinion drops the level of reliability, we can be fairly certain Muhammad(saws) said Rabid dogs, but can not be absolutely certain because one witness remembered something different.

A Muslim really has no business quoting a Hadith as fact, unless they them self have verified the levels of Authenticity and Reliability and can prove it is true. (Just my opinion)
The Science of Hadiths cannot be soundly reliable.
It is very possible to make up whatever is required since whatever is transmitted down is via the oral mode.

Quote:
I really doubt you will find many Muslims that accept Ahadith as divine. they are the source of sunnah and Sirat but are not divine and not the word of Allaah(swt) Except for the 40 al-Qudsi Ahadith. I am not aware of any Muslim who believes the Ahadith are divine. (I will admit that there probably are some, although I do not know how they arrive at that conclusion))
The Sunni [80% -1.2 billion of Muslims] and Shia [10%] rely on their respective Ahadith to establish Islamic Laws with severe impact on Muslims and non-Muslims.

The grounds of their Ahadith and Law is based on the authority [indirect] of Allah.
Islamic Law cannot come from any where other than from Allah.
Therefore if they take their Islamic Law [Sharia] from the Ahadith, then the Ahadith must carry some elements of divine authority [indirect].

Those who adopt their Sharia from the Ahadith will insist adulterers should be stoned to death because Allah [indirectly via the Ahadith] sanction it.

There is so much controversies surrounding the issue of the Muslimah must cover her hair.
It is obvious those Muslims insist because it is Allah's rules via the Ahadith.
As such it is implied the Ahadith has divine authority.

The fact is the Ahadith cannot be reliable when they are sorted and compiled from hundred of thousands
other hadith, 200 years++ after the death of Prophet Muhammad.
From my perspective, there was no God who recited to Muhammad via Gabriel.
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Old 03-27-2016, 05:09 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Science of Hadiths cannot be soundly reliable.
It is very possible to make up whatever is required since whatever is transmitted down is via the oral mode.

The Sunni [80% -1.2 billion of Muslims] and Shia [10%] rely on their respective Ahadith to establish Islamic Laws with severe impact on Muslims and non-Muslims.

The grounds of their Ahadith and Law is based on the authority [indirect] of Allah.
Islamic Law cannot come from any where other than from Allah.
Therefore if they take their Islamic Law [Sharia] from the Ahadith, then the Ahadith must carry some elements of divine authority [indirect].

Those who adopt their Sharia from the Ahadith will insist adulterers should be stoned to death because Allah [indirectly via the Ahadith] sanction it.

There is so much controversies surrounding the issue of the Muslimah must cover her hair.
It is obvious those Muslims insist because it is Allah's rules via the Ahadith.
As such it is implied the Ahadith has divine authority.

The fact is the Ahadith cannot be reliable when they are sorted and compiled from hundred of thousands
other hadith, 200 years++ after the death of Prophet Muhammad.
From my perspective, there was no God who recited to Muhammad via Gabriel.
Part error here. While many perhaps most non-Lawyer Muslims believe the second source of Authority of Shariah is the Ahadith that is wrong. The second source of Authority is the Sunnah. while it is true the Ahadith is one of the sources for Sunnah it is not the only source nor the main source.

While there are differences among each Madhab as to the Sources for Sharia they all agree upon the first 3 (Speaking of Sunni as Shi'a do not follow Sunnah) Those 3 in order of authority are Qur'an, Sunnah, Consensus of the Ulemah Even among the Hanafi which use the longest list of authority the Ahadith are not specified as being a source of shariah---although as being a portion of Sunnah they can and should be considered a partial source.
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Old 03-27-2016, 02:41 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,368 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Nearly all of the Ahadith regarding Aisha in the compilations of Bukhari, Muslim and Dawud trace their Isnad back to Hisham. The name Hisham pops up several times such as the Hisham who was a Student of Ishaq and reconstructed Ishaq's "Sirat Rasul Allah" which is not the same Hisham Bukhari traces the Ahadith back to.

I really doubt you will find many Muslims that accept Ahadith as divine. they are the source of sunnah and Sirat but are not divine and not the word of Allaah(swt) Except for the 40 al-Qudsi Ahadith. I am not aware of any Muslim who believes the Ahadith are divine. (I will admit that there probably are some, although I do not know how they arrive at that conclusion))

The "science of Hadith" refers to the methodology used to evaluate theIsnad, Authenticity and Reliability of each Hadith. Bukhari is the one who set down the basic methodology and criteria. For example Isnad has to contain an unbeoken chain of verifiable narrators back to the original witness.. The Authenticity is determined by the amount of proof that exists to prove the named witness actually existed and actually did write or otherwise pass down what he had personally witnessed. The level of Authenticity relate to how weel it is proven the witnessed existed and is the actual source of what he/she is believed to have witnessed. The level of reliabiity is detwrmined by the number of independent authenticate witnesses reported an event. A single witness is basically unacceptable, the more witnesses the higher the reliability but if even one witness does not state the same thing the level of reliability drops. The highest level of reliatility is there are 4 or more witnesses and all in exact agreement. an example are 7 ahadith relating to dogs. I am going by memory so this is a brief synopsis. Muhammad(saws) was asked if there were any animals it was permissable to kill on site. He named I believe 5 animals. The seven witnesses are in agreement about 4 of them however the 5th one 6 of the witnesses reported it was "Rabid Dogs" the 7 witness just says dogs. This differing opinion drops the level of reliability, we can be fairly certain Muhammad(saws) said Rabid dogs, but can not be absolutely certain because one witness remembered something different.


A Muslim really has no business quoting a Hadith as fact, unless they them self have verified the levels of Authenticity and Reliability and can prove it is true. (Just my opinion)
Your opinion rarely matches the writings I read on Islamic websites...or that of the thousands of Muslims I speak with. In fact, the vast majority of Muslims know that Muhammed had sex with Aisha when she was 9 years old. There really isn't a question there. They go on to other excuses....she was a mature woman at 9, Allah told Muhammed to do it, Aisha asked for it, she already had her first period so it was OK, it was necessary to cement relationships between clans......etc, etc.....

If you want to say the Islamic writings are suspicious, fine. That includes the Quran. None of us were there and certainly there is no 'original' Quran. Today, with the hateful and evil stuff in the Quran and hadiths, it is popular to use excuses like 'translation', or 'context'. or 'unreliable'. (ALL of this stuff is word of mouth and therefore unreliable, but Muslims cherry pick.)

This is actually good, because it shows some small sense of morality even if evil is still being supported and protected. At least there is shame.

As far as the dogs, I read those hadith. Look, let's be reality based here. Muhammed was a crazy and evil man. He's going to be saying and doing crazy and evil things. There is no making sense of them.

From Muslim #5248

Maimuna reported that one morning Allah’s Messenger was silent with grief. Maimuna said: Allah’s Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah’s Messenger said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me tonight, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises, and Allah’s Messenger spent the day in this sad mood. Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He commanded and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it at that place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: You promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. Then on that very morning he commanded the killing of the dogs until he announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog meant for the protection of extensive fields or big gardens.

OK, this is supposedly a reliable hadith. But the thing is, it is about a crazy and evil man...all upset because some angel doesn't pay a visit because a puppy is in the house. I mean really!! And so this nut wants all dogs killed but then reconsiders and decides some dogs can live.

This is nonsense. But is it the hadith that is nonsense, or is Muhammed full of nonsense? Either way....

This is true of the whole mess.
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Old 03-27-2016, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Your opinion rarely matches the writings I read on Islamic websites...or that of the thousands of Muslims I speak with. In fact, the vast majority of Muslims know that Muhammed had sex with Aisha when she was 9 years old. There really isn't a question there. They go on to other excuses....she was a mature woman at 9, Allah told Muhammed to do it, Aisha asked for it, she already had her first period so it was OK, it was necessary to cement relationships between clans......etc, etc.....

If you want to say the Islamic writings are suspicious, fine. That includes the Quran. None of us were there and certainly there is no 'original' Quran. Today, with the hateful and evil stuff in the Quran and hadiths, it is popular to use excuses like 'translation', or 'context'. or 'unreliable'. (ALL of this stuff is word of mouth and therefore unreliable, but Muslims cherry pick.)

This is actually good, because it shows some small sense of morality even if evil is still being supported and protected. At least there is shame.

As far as the dogs, I read those hadith. Look, let's be reality based here. Muhammed was a crazy and evil man. He's going to be saying and doing crazy and evil things. There is no making sense of them.

From Muslim #5248

Maimuna reported that one morning Allah’s Messenger was silent with grief. Maimuna said: Allah’s Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah’s Messenger said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me tonight, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises, and Allah’s Messenger spent the day in this sad mood. Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He commanded and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it at that place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: You promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. Then on that very morning he commanded the killing of the dogs until he announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog meant for the protection of extensive fields or big gardens.

OK, this is supposedly a reliable hadith. But the thing is, it is about a crazy and evil man...all upset because some angel doesn't pay a visit because a puppy is in the house. I mean really!! And so this nut wants all dogs killed but then reconsiders and decides some dogs can live.

This is nonsense. But is it the hadith that is nonsense, or is Muhammed full of nonsense? Either way....

This is true of the whole mess.
Rather than spending a bunch of time going through Numerous Ahadith I will leave this to someone who is more knowledgeable regarding this particular Hadith. Here is a Link

Islam and The Killing of Dogs.
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Old 03-27-2016, 07:07 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Rather than spending a bunch of time going through Numerous Ahadith I will leave this to someone who is more knowledgeable regarding this particular Hadith. Here is a Link

Islam and The Killing of Dogs.
Trouble is, this does not address the fact that it is about a crazy and evil man...all upset because some angel doesn't pay a visit because a puppy is in the house. I mean really!! And so this nut wants all dogs killed but then reconsiders and decides some dogs can live. (I didn't even see this mentioned on the hate page you gave the link to.)

This puppy thing is nonsense. But is it the hadith that is nonsense, or is Muhammed full of nonsense? Either way....

This hate site against Christians that you provide expects me to believe in the complete nonsense of Islam. I don't believe in it. And that is the problem. In order to argue with you about Islam, you expect me to accept your fundamental premise of a supernatural creator and his wacko prophet who gets upset when an angel doesn't show up and blames a puppy. I'm not going there.
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Old 03-27-2016, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Trouble is, this does not address the fact that it is about a crazy and evil man...all upset because some angel doesn't pay a visit because a puppy is in the house. I mean really!! And so this nut wants all dogs killed but then reconsiders and decides some dogs can live. (I didn't even see this mentioned on the hate page you gave the link to.)

This puppy thing is nonsense. But is it the hadith that is nonsense, or is Muhammed full of nonsense? Either way....

This hate site against Christians that you provide expects me to believe in the complete nonsense of Islam. I don't believe in it. And that is the problem. In order to argue with you about Islam, you expect me to accept your fundamental premise of a supernatural creator and his wacko prophet who gets upset when an angel doesn't show up and blames a puppy. I'm not going there.
and you expect me to give up the premise of a creator and the belief Muhammad(saws) was a holy prophet and agree with your concept of Islam.
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Old 03-27-2016, 08:38 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
and you expect me to give up the premise of a creator and the belief Muhammad(saws) was a holy prophet and agree with your concept of Islam.
If you are a rational, honest and good person, yes.
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