U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-24-2016, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
That would be comparable to asking if a devoutly religious person (be it Islamic or Christian) can understand scientific methods, particularly in the areas of archeology, geology, biology and evolution (and this might be more true for Christians, I don't know the Islamic origin of life story). If your belief system denies evidence, observation, inference from observed scientific activities and demands acceptance on faith, and demands that you do not question the very feasibility of that faith, how can you ever progress via scientific methods? For that matter, how can you progress in any way as a society?

In the case of an atheist comprehending the bible or quran, I think it's a matter of suppressing objective thought and observation, accepting that those teachings are things that some people actually do believe, and progressing from there. To an atheist those concepts may seem rather silly, but it is an objective FACT that some people do believe them. The best that can be done is to understand those teachings and attempt to understand how the belief in them can motivate the actions of some followers. It's much like the followers of Charles Manson, Hitler or the KKK; I may not accept their actions, but it is important to understand what can motivate (or manipulate) people to follow those leaders and belief systems, no matter how irrational they may seem.
Well working backwards we have no hierarchy of clergy, no ordained religious leaders and no required teachings. Each Muslim has to learn in accordance with their ability. No one is going to spoon feed us any teaching, we have to learn to seek out what we our self can verify.

The reason I state that I do not believe and Athiest can understand the Qur'an is because the Qur'an is the actual word of Allaah(saws) if one does not study it with that attitude and belief it will be very difficult, if not impossible to comprehend the logic and reasoning for many of the things said. this is a case where faith is sometime required. A Muslim knows the Qur'an was dictated by Allaah(swt) and contains his actual words, an Atheist believes we have faith it was.

No we do not deny observable evidence of the Earth. Things like archaeological and biological findings do not conflict with the Qur'an. If we see a contradiction it is because we do not understand one or the other.

One of if not the earliest book dealing with evolution is the "Book of Animals"(Kitāb al-ḥayawān) by a Muslim Biologist "al-Jahiz" written in the 11th Century. It has often been compared to Darwin's "Origin of Species" But written 700 years earlier. While Europe was in the "Dark Ages"the Muslim world was well advanced in the sciences particular in the fields of Medicine, biology, astronomy and Mathematics. Yes after the Crusades and the "Inquisition" we as a group fell back considerably especially after the destruction of the schools and the great libraries.

A few links they may give some insight

Decline Of Islamic Civilizations - Causes - Time For A New Paradigm By Mirza A. Beg

Islamic Golden Age | Islamic History

https://hishamfangs.wordpress.com/20...at-went-wrong/

kitaabun-Classical and Contemporary Muslim and Islamic Books

Now the question is can the Islamic world regain it's lost glory and once again become the benchmark for human advancement. It might but I doubt it will be in the "Oil Rich Mideast" I look for the future to come from the developing Far Eastern Islamic Nations such as Indonesia and Malaysia. Indonesia seems to have considerable potential once it resolves the Issues with Western Papua and Aceh Provence. My own opinion is it would be to Indonesia's advantage to let both secede. But in spite of their difficulties both are making progress. Although I have little hope for the Mideast Dubai may surprise me. At least they have the wisdom to break-away from dependency upon oil wealth. I believe the easy money oil Wealth stifled advancement in the Mideast and parts of North Africa. It is hard to have any incentive to advance when every citizen has a free income and things like free housing, free transportation etc.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-24-2016, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,554 posts, read 17,643,245 times
Reputation: 15628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The reason I state that I do not believe and Athiest can understand the Qur'an is because the Qur'an is the actual word of Allaah(saws) if one does not study it with that attitude and belief it will be very difficult, if not impossible to comprehend the logic and reasoning for many of the things said. this is a case where faith is sometime required. A Muslim knows the Qur'an was dictated by Allaah(swt) and contains his actual words, an Atheist believes we have faith it was.
As an atheist, I would have to ask, what makes you think your hypothesis is correct? What evidence do you have to support that? What reproducible experiments have you performed to prove that Allah exists? What evidence proves that Muhammad was his prophet? What proves that the Quran is the word of Allah...and not just some work of fiction? What reason would you have to accept that premise? And I'd ask the same of Christianity, this isn't an attack on Islam as such.

You could equally easily start from the hypothesis that Mohammad was a man after wealth and power. One who created a story of a supernatural creator in order to gain both, and in order to justify his actions...actions that, without the belief in such a hypothesis, would make him seem evil and cruel, by standards of human morality.

The question is, why would you first accept that as "truth"? I do agree...an atheist can not understand the Quran (or the Bible or the Torah) as one who accepts without question, and on faith, that their book is the truth. Why would say the Bible be accepted as true any more than The Wizard of Oz? If you start out with the acceptance that any book is true, you're interpretation will be much different than someone that reads it as a story or entertainment.

Any religion can be a force for good, by providing comfort to people's fears, to provide "answers" to the big question (what happens to those that die), and to support and enforce societal standards and morals.

Quote:
Well working backwards we have no hierarchy of clergy, no ordained religious leaders and no required teachings. Each Muslim has to learn in accordance with their ability.
That is something that I find...appealing. However, it is also somewhat terrifying. When a person of ANY religious faith is left on their own to determine or interpret what those teachings mean...he is wide open to interpret them any way he choses. It can as readily be one that justifies the most evil, vile acts (re ISIS, etc) as one who sees them as guide to charity. And such a person is convinced in his own mind that he is performing the works of Allah. (Or God, etc-again I don't lay this as a strictly Islamic thing). The interpretations of Osama bin Laden have as much validity as the most peaceful, respected Imam.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-24-2016, 09:38 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,741,265 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
My contention is it is impossible for a person to understand the Qur'an unless they sincerly believe in the existence of Allaah(swt) and are absolutly certain the Qur'an is the exact words of Allaah(swt).

some of my reasons for believing that is that if we assume the Qur'an to be the words of any Human, it changes the person's viewpoint and alters the meaning.


It is very similar to the concepts of Aesthetics. One can not understand art without having an aesthetic attitude.

Our concepts change in accordance with our beliefs about what we are viewing.

An Atheist can not understand the Qur'an in the same manner a Theist would. Bias exists in both directions. These bias's do alter our interpretation and understanding.

This is the problem with such Bibliolatries. The Christians said the same thing: that no person could truly understand the miraculous awesomeness of their particular version/translation of the Bible [from which ever canon they preferred (the canon for the Quran was probably chosen by the pre-Ottoman royalty, or at least their friends or payed companions)] without sincerely believing what the converting Authority [Another Bibliolater of some Christian Bible version or just the Church authority one was born under] said beforehand and making yourself absolutely certain that that Bible is the exact words of the message that God-Jesus wants you to know. then you can't understand it with a Pro-Bible bias.

They at least added a caveat or catch 22 saying that you also need the "Holy Spirit" to guide your reading, meaning that if you decided a person was bad but still believed (such as competing denominations or terrorists) then their interpretation of your very own book could be self-assuredly called into question. I'm guessing the same thing couldn't be done with Islam... unless Allah/angels were put in the place of the Holy Spirit character for the suggested mechanism of "correct understanding of a necessarily weak message."

Assuming that the Bible is not perfect or the reverse also changes the person's viewpoint and alters the meaning as understood by the desperate vs. skeptical reader.

It is in fact very similar to the concept of Aesthetics and fashion. One cannot understand the often happy illusions that art provides (including HOLY IDOLS such as books) in the same exact way that someone else is looking at it unless they bring themselves into the same perspective. That is why your last point is wrong. Christians are theists, and they [even the ones that actually bother or dare to read it] believe the Qur'an is the Satanic Verses.

Bias does exist in almost infinite possible directions. Good luck to the Bibliolaters.

At least supposedly reproducible/falsifiable psychology studies have actually shown that people are willing to believe any number of odd things more if reminded of their death (consciously or subconsciously) and the odd ideas are mixed with the idea that they are also or will also be immortal. Who knows what effects peer-pressure and mental changes (due to aging or exposure to certain brain-altering substances) would have on practices of idolatry and it's sister: bibliolatry.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 02-24-2016 at 09:52 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-24-2016, 09:55 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,741,265 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
That would be comparable to asking if a devoutly religious person (be it Islamic or Christian) can understand scientific methods, particularly in the areas of archeology, geology, biology and evolution (and this might be more true for Christians, I don't know the Islamic origin of life story). If your belief system denies evidence, observation, inference from observed scientific activities and demands acceptance on faith, and demands that you do not question the very feasibility of that faith, how can you ever progress via scientific methods? For that matter, how can you progress in any way as a society?

In the case of an atheist comprehending the bible or quran, I think it's a matter of suppressing objective thought and observation, accepting that those teachings are things that some people actually do believe, and progressing from there. To an atheist those concepts may seem rather silly, but it is an objective FACT that some people do believe them. The best that can be done is to understand those teachings and attempt to understand how the belief in them can motivate the actions of some followers. It's much like the followers of Charles Manson, Hitler or the KKK; I may not accept their actions, but it is important to understand what can motivate (or manipulate) people to follow those leaders and belief systems, no matter how irrational they may seem.
I think what he was trying to say is that Apologetics (interpreting mythology in order to defend it) becomes hard when a sentence within a book seems to say something you don't want it to say. In that case, you need a previous perspective that tells you that the book is perfect as it is, and that it is just a case of interpretation based on some contradicting verse somewhere, context as you want to see it, or whatever else.

Bibliolatry becomes a very empty psychological crutch if you don't see Bibliolatry as a proper method for understanding and being grounded.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-24-2016, 10:00 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,741,265 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1. As I mentioned elsewhere, on one level, I read the Quran with the ASSUMPTION that Allah exist and conveyed his message to Muhammad via Gabriel within 610-632AD. Otherwise it would be clumsy to read the Quran without such an ASSUMPTION.
With such an assumption I am reading the Quran objectively relative the conditions but ultimately this is still Subjective.


Thus if Muslims keep their views of the Quran private and personal, there is no issue with keeping the above assumption. This is a personal and subjective view.


However when the elements of the Quran and Islam are brought into the public sphere and imposed their beliefs on others, then I will have to shift to another meta-perspective without the assumption God exists.
For example, if a Muslim want to kill me because his Allah said so in the Quran, then I will argue Allah do not exists as real and thus that Muslim is relying on some illusory being's authority to kill me. This is just like a schizophrenic who hear voices in his head demanding he kill others.


If and when I argued the Quran is authored by humans, I am not assuming it but have to justify it by proofs and arguments objectively.
Yes in this case it change the view point from point 1 above BUT now we are dealing with justified truths and reality. In this case this view is purely objective and it can be proven and acceptable to any one on an objective basis.
There is no subjective bias for any one who read the Quran objectively just as how a murderer is proven to be guilty objectively.


Art is generally subjective regardless of who is doing and viewing it. The last thing a Muslims need to do is to compare the Quran with arts.
Not many people are capable of using their imaginations with such layers of awareness as both of us seem to be able to. There are different mental capabilities for different people, different levels of willingness to use imagination. However, the idea for Bibliolaters is often glued around with the idea that "people that read it different just don't have the Right perspective/guidance." But it works WITHIN the religion as well for religious contentions between denominations/subgroups.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-24-2016, 10:43 PM
 
4,417 posts, read 1,644,854 times
Reputation: 1533
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
This is the problem with such Bibliolatries. The Christians said the same thing: that no person could truly understand the miraculous awesomeness of their particular version/translation of the Bible [from which ever canon they preferred (the canon for the Quran was probably chosen by the pre-Ottoman royalty, or at least their friends or payed companions)] without sincerely believing what the converting Authority [Another Bibliolater of some Christian Bible version or just the Church authority one was born under] said beforehand and making yourself absolutely certain that that Bible is the exact words of the message that God-Jesus wants you to know. then you can't understand it with a Pro-Bible bias.

They at least added a caveat or catch 22 saying that you also need the "Holy Spirit" to guide your reading, meaning that if you decided a person was bad but still believed (such as competing denominations or terrorists) then their interpretation of your very own book could be self-assuredly called into question. I'm guessing the same thing couldn't be done with Islam... unless Allah/angels were put in the place of the Holy Spirit character for the suggested mechanism of "correct understanding of a necessarily weak message."

Assuming that the Bible is not perfect or the reverse also changes the person's viewpoint and alters the meaning as understood by the desperate vs. skeptical reader.

It is in fact very similar to the concept of Aesthetics and fashion. One cannot understand the often happy illusions that art provides (including HOLY IDOLS such as books) in the same exact way that someone else is looking at it unless they bring themselves into the same perspective. That is why your last point is wrong. Christians are theists, and they [even the ones that actually bother or dare to read it] believe the Qur'an is the Satanic Verses.

Bias does exist in almost infinite possible directions. Good luck to the Bibliolaters.

At least supposedly reproducible/falsifiable psychology studies have actually shown that people are willing to believe any number of odd things more if reminded of their death (consciously or subconsciously) and the odd ideas are mixed with the idea that they are also or will also be immortal. Who knows what effects peer-pressure and mental changes (due to aging or exposure to certain brain-altering substances) would have on practices of idolatry and it's sister: bibliolatry.
Absolutely wrong.

The book itself has a clear cut disclaimer.

Quran 2:2 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, is a guidance for those who are conscious of Allah.


Now, if you don't fall into this category then definitely this book may not be something you are looking for. You may not understand it's message, you may not get any benefit from it, and it may not have any appeal to you.

Simply, move on with your life.


Think of a Picasso's painting:
For you, it may be a few meaningless ugly sketched lines that have no appeal to you. You may not understand what it means, and it may not be of any benefit to you.
Others are willing to pay 35 million dollars for it. Why? Because they have a desire to understand the art and they know the meaning of the painting, they see the message, and they know it's worth.

Do you understand now? I hope so.

Last edited by GoCardinals; 02-24-2016 at 10:52 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2016, 12:42 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,945 posts, read 4,741,265 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Absolutely wrong.

The book itself has a clear cut disclaimer.

Quran 2:2 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, is a guidance for those who are conscious of Allah.


Now, if you don't fall into this category then definitely this book may not be something you are looking for. You may not understand it's message, you may not get any benefit from it, and it may not have any appeal to you.

Simply, move on with your life.


Think of a Picasso's painting:
For you, it may be a few meaningless ugly sketched lines that have no appeal to you. You may not understand what it means, and it may not be of any benefit to you.
Others are willing to pay 35 million dollars for it. Why? Because they have a desire to understand the art and they know the meaning of the painting, they see the message, and they know it's worth.

Do you understand now? I hope so.
The Bible has the same disclaimer. It "explains" that you can't understand it unless you have "it's" faith.

Knowledge and Wisdom is a benefit to all. Lies are a benefit seen to those who want to lie to themselves perhaps in order to feel good. But Lies can be Dangerous Delusions, and bibliolatries are some of the most dangerous delusions of all.

And still someone else even stupider and feelings-based might pay 1 billion dollars for it because they don't know any better or were duped (or had their ancestors duped/dup them).

I always move on... this time to continue to help bibliolaters move on from their vainful bibliolatries and lack of proper understanding of what their bibliolatry is actually based on.

Quote:
2nd Peter:
3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Quote:
2nd Timothy:
3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Last edited by LuminousTruth; 02-25-2016 at 12:53 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2016, 02:02 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Absolutely wrong.

The book itself has a clear cut disclaimer.

Quran 2:2 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, is a guidance for those who are conscious of Allah.


Now, if you don't fall into this category then definitely this book may not be something you are looking for. You may not understand it's message, you may not get any benefit from it, and it may not have any appeal to you.

Simply, move on with your life.


Think of a Picasso's painting:
For you, it may be a few meaningless ugly sketched lines that have no appeal to you. You may not understand what it means, and it may not be of any benefit to you.
Others are willing to pay 35 million dollars for it. Why? Because they have a desire to understand the art and they know the meaning of the painting, they see the message, and they know it's worth.

Do you understand now? I hope so.
Btw, I have read of any one who look or stare at a Picasso's painting and subsequently is influenced or inspired to kill those who do not appreciate Picasso's art.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2016, 01:22 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Absolutely wrong.

The book itself has a clear cut disclaimer.

Quran 2:2 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, is a guidance for those who are conscious of Allah.


Now, if you don't fall into this category then definitely this book may not be something you are looking for. You may not understand it's message, you may not get any benefit from it, and it may not have any appeal to you.

Simply, move on with your life.
Perfect reply!

Those who are not conscious of Allah, will not understand the Qur'an.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-25-2016, 09:18 PM
 
4,417 posts, read 1,644,854 times
Reputation: 1533
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
The Bible has the same disclaimer. It "explains" that you can't understand it unless you have "it's" faith.

Knowledge and Wisdom is a benefit to all. Lies are a benefit seen to those who want to lie to themselves perhaps in order to feel good. But Lies can be Dangerous Delusions, and bibliolatries are some of the most dangerous delusions of all.

And still someone else even stupider and feelings-based might pay 1 billion dollars for it because they don't know any better or were duped (or had their ancestors duped/dup them).

I always move on... this time to continue to help bibliolaters move on from their vainful bibliolatries and lack of proper understanding of what their bibliolatry is actually based on.
wrong again.

Quran does not say that.

Quran says, it's the book of guidance.

Now, if you are seeking guidance, then check it out.

If you are NOT seeking guidance then, this is not what you are looking for.


Same can be said about many other books.

For example, pick a PhD level book of Quantum Physics and try to understand it while you are looking to learn Morse code.

Would the Quantum Physics books help you learn Morse Code?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top