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Old 02-21-2016, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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My contention is it is impossible for a person to understand the Qur'an unless they sincerly believe in the existence of Allaah(swt) and are absolutly certain the Qur'an is the exact words of Allaah(swt).

some of my reasons for believing that is that if we assume the Qur'an to be the words of any Human, it changes the person's viewpoint and alters the meaning.


It is very similar to the concepts of Aesthetics. One can not understand art without having an aesthetic attitude.

Our concepts change in accordance with our beliefs about what we are viewing.

An Atheist can not understand the Qur'an in the same manner a Theist would. Bias exists in both directions. These bias's do alter our interpretation and understanding.
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Old 02-21-2016, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
My contention is it is impossible for a person to understand the Qur'an unless they sincerly believe in the existence of Allaah(swt) and are absolutly certain the Qur'an is the exact words of Allaah(swt).

some of my reasons for believing that is that if we assume the Qur'an to be the words of any Human, it changes the person's viewpoint and alters the meaning.


It is very similar to the concepts of Aesthetics. One can not understand art without having an aesthetic attitude.

Our concepts change in accordance with our beliefs about what we are viewing.

An Atheist can not understand the Qur'an in the same manner a Theist would. Bias exists in both directions. These bias's do alter our interpretation and understanding.
1. As I mentioned elsewhere, on one level, I read the Quran with the ASSUMPTION that Allah exist and conveyed his message to Muhammad via Gabriel within 610-632AD. Otherwise it would be clumsy to read the Quran without such an ASSUMPTION.
With such an assumption I am reading the Quran objectively relative the conditions but ultimately this is still Subjective.


Thus if Muslims keep their views of the Quran private and personal, there is no issue with keeping the above assumption. This is a personal and subjective view.


However when the elements of the Quran and Islam are brought into the public sphere and imposed their beliefs on others, then I will have to shift to another meta-perspective without the assumption God exists.
For example, if a Muslim want to kill me because his Allah said so in the Quran, then I will argue Allah do not exists as real and thus that Muslim is relying on some illusory being's authority to kill me. This is just like a schizophrenic who hear voices in his head demanding he kill others.


If and when I argued the Quran is authored by humans, I am not assuming it but have to justify it by proofs and arguments objectively.
Yes in this case it change the view point from point 1 above BUT now we are dealing with justified truths and reality. In this case this view is purely objective and it can be proven and acceptable to any one on an objective basis.
There is no subjective bias for any one who read the Quran objectively just as how a murderer is proven to be guilty objectively.


Art is generally subjective regardless of who is doing and viewing it. The last thing a Muslims need to do is to compare the Quran with arts.
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Old 02-22-2016, 01:33 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
1. As I mentioned elsewhere, on one level, I read the Quran with the ASSUMPTION that Allah exist and conveyed his message to Muhammad via Gabriel within 610-632AD. Otherwise it would be clumsy to read the Quran without such an ASSUMPTION.
You have never assumed that Allah exists. Be honest!
When you have proof that Allah does not exist, why would you ever asume that Allah exists?
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Old 02-22-2016, 09:16 PM
 
4,409 posts, read 1,637,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
My contention is it is impossible for a person to understand the Qur'an unless they sincerly believe in the existence of Allaah(swt) and are absolutly certain the Qur'an is the exact words of Allaah(swt).

some of my reasons for believing that is that if we assume the Qur'an to be the words of any Human, it changes the person's viewpoint and alters the meaning.


It is very similar to the concepts of Aesthetics. One can not understand art without having an aesthetic attitude.

Our concepts change in accordance with our beliefs about what we are viewing.

An Atheist can not understand the Qur'an in the same manner a Theist would. Bias exists in both directions. These bias's do alter our interpretation and understanding.
How can one find its source, when he thinks he does need light?
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Old 02-23-2016, 01:19 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You have never assumed that Allah exists. Be honest!
When you have proof that Allah does not exist, why would you ever asume that Allah exists?
Why not and I am saying so.
No big issue if I assume.
Note there are various meaning of "assume"
i.e. assume = to pretend to have or be
Assume | Define Assume at Dictionary.com


When I read the Quran at times [not all the time], I have to put my self in the shoes of a Muslim to get a greater understanding of the various Muslim's mind.
To do so effective I have to "assume" God exists.
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Old 02-23-2016, 11:26 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
When I read the Quran at times [not all the time], I have to put my self in the shoes of a Muslim to get a greater understanding of the various Muslim's mind.
To do so effective I have to "assume" God exists.
That just goes to prove how ignorant you are about Muslims. To understand a Muslim's mind, you put yourself in his shoes. You can't understand a Muslim because his mind is not in his shoes. 😃 Never assume that his mind is in his shoes or he thinks with his shoes or feet.

Seriously, when you are reading the Qur'an you are not trying to understand the Qur'an but Muslim. And when you try to understand a Muslim's mind you never put yourself in his shoes; you stay in your own shoes and hat all the time. That's why you can't think objectively when it comes to the Qur'an or understand a Muslim or how a Muslim thinks.

Last edited by Khalif; 02-23-2016 at 11:54 AM.. Reason: Extension
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Old 02-23-2016, 11:33 AM
 
119 posts, read 107,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That just goes to prove how ignorant you are about Muslims. To understand a Muslim's mind, you put yourself in his shoes. You can't understand a Muslim because his mind is not in his shoes. 😃 Never assume that his mind is in his shoes or he thinks with his shoes or feet.

That is not what He said. He means He try to see things in view of a Muslim
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Old 02-23-2016, 11:57 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NABILBB View Post
That is not what He said. He means He try to see things in view of a Muslim
He never does that (judging by his responses to me), he is only saying so.
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Seriously, when you are reading the Qur'an you are not trying to understand the Qur'an but Muslim. And when you try to understand a Muslim's mind you never put yourself in his shoes; you stay in your own shoes and hat all the time. That's why you can't think objectively when it comes to the Qur'an or understand a Muslim or how a Muslim thinks.
Fact is no one person can know exactly what the other person is. This is so obvious.


The best one can do is 'put oneself in another's shoe' to understand the other person's thinking and feeling as near as possible.
It is not practical be in the other person's shoe/hat all the time.
There is no need to waste time making a fuss and nit-picking on such a matter.
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Old 02-24-2016, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,480 posts, read 17,613,967 times
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That would be comparable to asking if a devoutly religious person (be it Islamic or Christian) can understand scientific methods, particularly in the areas of archeology, geology, biology and evolution (and this might be more true for Christians, I don't know the Islamic origin of life story). If your belief system denies evidence, observation, inference from observed scientific activities and demands acceptance on faith, and demands that you do not question the very feasibility of that faith, how can you ever progress via scientific methods? For that matter, how can you progress in any way as a society?

In the case of an atheist comprehending the bible or quran, I think it's a matter of suppressing objective thought and observation, accepting that those teachings are things that some people actually do believe, and progressing from there. To an atheist those concepts may seem rather silly, but it is an objective FACT that some people do believe them. The best that can be done is to understand those teachings and attempt to understand how the belief in them can motivate the actions of some followers. It's much like the followers of Charles Manson, Hitler or the KKK; I may not accept their actions, but it is important to understand what can motivate (or manipulate) people to follow those leaders and belief systems, no matter how irrational they may seem.
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