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Old 02-26-2016, 03:43 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Khalif, there are Christians who would say the very same thing. As a person from the Caribbean, a common refrain I used to hear was, "you do not have to go to church to be a Christian." In fact, some Christians INSIST they have a "personal relationship" with their god and being a part of some denomination or group (in terms of a physical group gathering) is not a necessary requirement to being a Christian in much the same way you say that one can be a Muslim and NOT be a part of the larger group. They would tell you that being a Christian is a state of being and a way of life just as a Muslim would say about his faith.

Anyway, in digressing and not to totally derail the thread, you caught my attention with your statement because I did not know Muslims (if I can use you as a representative of, well, "the group") held a similar sentiment in that, a person leaving Islam/Christianity is considered a person who never "got it" and by extension, the apostate leaving either faith is seen as a person who was never true to it in the first place.

Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 02-26-2016 at 03:56 PM..
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Old 02-26-2016, 03:51 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We do not Join Islam, We can not be kicked out of Islam because we have never joined something.
I would not say this is entirely accurate, Woodrow. You joined throngs of others (billions, to be exact) to adhere to certain tenets as laid out in a holy book with respect to a particular deity and a special prophet. You are not out there with that by your solitary self. Now, depending on where you are, you join along with OTHER like minded individuals to "join" a local mosque to share, celebrate or observe certain things that the group surrounds. It really is no different that the Christian who, after hearing someone proselytize to him or her, or through some other means, become "saved" and then "joins" a way of life, a way of thinking and oftentimes, joins a local church with like minded people to share, celebrate and observe certain things centralized in a holy book. the Christian, like the Muslim, can go to the other end of the earth away from his church and still be a Christian WITHOUT benefit of being in a church. In fact, technical christians would tell you that THEY are the church, as "church" in its strictest sense is NOT the building.
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Old 02-26-2016, 04:00 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Oh, Woodrow, I see that you might be hinting at something like the Catholic Church and their "excommunication" babble. Technically, they cannot kick you out of the church, per se. What many churches do is prohibit you from taking active part in "service," meaning, you cannot preach/teach, get married in their church, perform your funeral rites or be baptized if you break some rule or "living in sin." You can still go sit in the service, but that is it. Of course, the individual can STILL consider themselves a Christian despite the church saying otherwise and/or, they can move to another church or stay home and STILL wear the label Christian.
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Old 02-26-2016, 04:06 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I would not say this is entirely accurate, Woodrow. You joined throngs of others (billions, to be exact) to adhere to certain tenets as laid out in a holy book with respect to a particular deity and a special prophet. You are not out there with that by your solitary self. Now, depending on where you are, you join along with OTHER like minded individuals to "join" a local mosque to share, celebrate or observe certain things that the group surrounds. It really is no different that the Christian who, after hearing someone proselytize to him or her, or through some other means, become "saved" and then "joins" a way of life, a way of thinking and oftentimes, joins a local church with like minded people to share, celebrate and observe certain things centralized in a holy book. the Christian, like the Muslim, can go to the other end of the earth away from his church and still be a Christian WITHOUT benefit of being in a church. In fact, technical christians would tell you that THEY are the church, as "church" in its strictest sense is NOT the building.
When one joins a group or an organisation, one must obey the rules of the group or the organisation or else s/he will be kicked out. In Christianity, it is called "excommunication". Muslim cannot be excommunicated because he has not joined any group and will not obey group's rules. A Muslim obeys only Allah's rules for him in his religion.
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Old 02-26-2016, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Dothan AL
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Nothing will shake my faith, no extremist, no ISIS, no ignorant self-proclaimed Muslim, no non-Muslim, no politician radicalizing masses against Muslims. All are playing their part one way or the other, often in ignorance, to create the mess in the world.

People who leave the faith because of the action of others didn't know their faith in the first place. A Muslim who understands the tenets of his faith will never leave his faith.
This is very sad! All religion causes people to ignore the real world of the living and focus morbidly, on the dead. There is such wonder in life, so much to experience, to enjoy, so much of what is good and pleasurable! You throw all the pleasure of life away being religious, and not just Muslim, all religion! Somehow you bought into the idea life should be hard and painful, depressing, and a trial, never to be enjoyed; religion steals away the value of life and promises one empty pipe dreams!
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Old 02-26-2016, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
I would not say this is entirely accurate, Woodrow. You joined throngs of others (billions, to be exact) to adhere to certain tenets as laid out in a holy book with respect to a particular deity and a special prophet. You are not out there with that by your solitary self. Now, depending on where you are, you join along with OTHER like minded individuals to "join" a local mosque to share, celebrate or observe certain things that the group surrounds. It really is no different that the Christian who, after hearing someone proselytize to him or her, or through some other means, become "saved" and then "joins" a way of life, a way of thinking and oftentimes, joins a local church with like minded people to share, celebrate and observe certain things centralized in a holy book. the Christian, like the Muslim, can go to the other end of the earth away from his church and still be a Christian WITHOUT benefit of being in a church. In fact, technical christians would tell you that THEY are the church, as "church" in its strictest sense is NOT the building.
Actually for the past 8 years my wife and myself are a bit solitary as we are the only Muslims in a 100 mile radius. Nearest Mosque is 124 miles distance. Currently there are only 4 Mosques in North Dakota and one of the is only large enough to hold 8 people. But there are an estimated 4-8,000 Muslims living in ND, most on very rural farms.

Actually many perhaps most Muslims do not go to any particular Mosque. World wide the majority simply do their prayers where they happen to be. In the Muslim majority countries it will often be out in the street. You have probably seen pictures of that.



There is no clergy required to lead the Salat, we can break into small groups and the oldest person present will lead the prayers. In reality there should not be any teaching or preaching inside the Mosque. It should be for prayers only and simply be a shelter to get out of the sun, rain, sandstorm etc.

It is actually quite difficult if even possible to find 2 like -minded Muslims. Most of us are simply too dang-independent to join a group. Although it is fairly common for Muslims that live near each other to alternate having the prayers in their home and the head of the household serve as Imam.

We have no ordained clergy and no central agency that trains Imams and assigns them to Mosques. In the US there are over 2300 Mosques (Most hold less then 25 people) some are simply empty motel rooms or a spare room in someone's house, but there are less than 700 Imams most of which have no formal training.
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Old 02-26-2016, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by OldDocKat View Post
This is very sad! All religion causes people to ignore the real world of the living and focus morbidly, on the dead. There is such wonder in life, so much to experience, to enjoy, so much of what is good and pleasurable! You throw all the pleasure of life away being religious, and not just Muslim, all religion! Somehow you bought into the idea life should be hard and painful, depressing, and a trial, never to be enjoyed; religion steals away the value of life and promises one empty pipe dreams!
Most Muslims are quite joyful. We do believe life is a trial, even the enjoyable times are a trial. Even for non-Muslims life is a trial and everyone is engaged in the greated Jihad which is our inner battle to overcome unpleasant and/or evil thoughts.

We are to enjoy the pleasures of life. We are not as stoic and straight -laced as many non-Muslims suspect.

We do enjoy many of the same things non-Muslims enjoy. Relaxing activities good times with family and friends, good food, etc.
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Old 02-26-2016, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Originally Posted by OldDocKat View Post
This is very sad! All religion causes people to ignore the real world of the living and focus morbidly, on the dead. There is such wonder in life, so much to experience, to enjoy, so much of what is good and pleasurable! You throw all the pleasure of life away being religious, and not just Muslim, all religion! Somehow you bought into the idea life should be hard and painful, depressing, and a trial, never to be enjoyed; religion steals away the value of life and promises one empty pipe dreams!
I doubt if you will find many Muslims that focus on the dead or are locked in the past. If you ever get a chance visit Bubai or Kaula-Lumbur. Most of us do not stagnate nor are locked in the past. It is true the mideast has become quite dismal as it has been virtually destroyed by bombardments from many sides. but the Mideast is less than 20% of the World's Muslims.

Living a Halal life is actually quite enjoyable and beneficial while allowing time to enjoy the actual rewards and pleasures of life. In spite of what Saudi does, women are not only encouraged to get an education they like Males are obligated to reach for the highest level of education they are capable of.

The issue is there is no reason for them too as a woman's income is hers alone and she has no obligation to pay any household espenses, no matter how high her income that responsibility falls upon the males in her family.
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Old 02-26-2016, 05:36 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
When one joins a group or an organisation, one must obey the rules of the group or the organisation or else s/he will be kicked out. In Christianity, it is called "excommunication". Muslim cannot be excommunicated because he has not joined any group and will not obey group's rules. A Muslim obeys only Allah's rules for him in his religion.
See the post #13.
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Old 02-26-2016, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Islam is individual rather than group. To comply with Islam, one does not need a group. It is performed individually and one does not need anyone else to perform it. Even in mosques, you can pray on your own without the help of anyone else.

An apostate is someone who leaves Islam (not group) and then attacks Muslims and Islam.

I will not criticize such person as there is no compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an. The person is free to leave without attacking others.
From this source: The Punishment for Apostasy from Islam

Quote:
The punishment for apostasy from Islam is a controversial topic for Muslims living in the West and for ex-Muslims everywhere. That’s because Islam teaches that apostates are to be killed. We know from historic Islamic documents that during Muhammad's lifetime, and the lifetimes of the next four "Rightly Guided Caliphs", tens of thousands of Muslims left the faith of Islam and thousands were killed. On a large scale the Muslims made war on groups that chose to leave Islam and massacres of apostates occurred. On a smaller scale individual apostates were executed. This death sentence is in effect whether or not the apostasy occurred in or out of the Islamic state.

Many Muslims living in Islamic countries have no problem with the rule of putting apostates to death. The examples of Robert Hussein[1] of Kuwait, Abdul Rahman[2] of Afghanistan, and Bahaa el-Din Ahmed Hussein el-Akkad[3] of Egypt come to mind. These ugly Muslim governments are succored by the West’s finances and blood while they impose an imperial and brutal religion upon its citizens.

On the other hand, Muslims living in the West are embarrassed by this death sentence. The West values the freedoms of thought and speech, Islam does not, and these virtues have never blossomed under Islamic rule. Consequently, when asked about the Islamic law for apostates many Western Muslims do their best to cover up Islam’s edict. Motivated by conviction, or shame, they make up various defenses and say whatever they can to put your mind at ease and make Islam more acceptable to a nave, gullible, and ignorant Western audience. It is not difficult to make the Quran dance and say what you want it to say. More on these arguments later.

We must examine the Islamic source materials: the Quran, Hadith, and Sira. We must examine not only Muhammad’s words, but his deeds, and the deeds of those who knew, loved, and obeyed him. What exactly was the law during Muhammad's and the Caliph's time? What did the great scholars of Islam teach on this issue?

It is left to the Muslims to define their doctrines. But once defined we should understand them for they affect our lives. Note then that for some 1400 years the defined sentence for apostasy was execution. Few Muslim scholars have ever challenged this definition; the overwhelming majority of Islamic scholars supported it. Later in this article as you read the objections of various modern Muslims arguing against the death sentence bear in mind that it is they who are deviating from the judgment established by the depth and breadth of Islamic jurisprudence.

Of course the best arguments for the death sentence are made by Muslim scholars themselves. Therefore, I will draw from their works, or from people who quote them.
also: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pa.../apostasy.aspx

also https://islamqa.info/en/20327

What is particularly barbaric in that last link is this:

Quote:
Moreover, this is not someone who has never known the truth and practiced it and worshipped in accordance with it; rather this is a person who has known the truth, and practiced the religion and done the rituals of worship, so the punishment is no greater than he deserves. Moreover, such strong rulings as this are only applied to such a person whose life is no longer considered to be useful, because he knew the truth and followed the religion, then he left it and forsook it. What soul can be more evil than the soul of such a person?
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