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Old 02-26-2016, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
From this source: The Punishment for Apostasy from Islam



also: Apostasy in Islam

also https://islamqa.info/en/20327

What is particularly barbaric in that last link is this:
There have been very few Apostates ever executed for Apostasy in an Islamic Court. No where in the Qur'an are we commanded to kill Apostates.

Yes in some nations the murdering of an apostate by family of friends does happen. But it is an act of Murder and not commanded by Islam.

The few Apostates that have been executed were actually executed for other crimes such as Treason, not because they were Apostates.Even in Islamic Nations an Apostate will usually be left alone, unless he begins proselytizing another religion.

Here is a snip from a wiki article about Apostasy in the Muslim nations

History

As early as the 200s CE, apostasy against the Zoroastrian faith in the Sassanid Persian Empire was criminalized. The high priest Kidir instigated pogroms against Jews, Christians, Buddhists, and others in effort to solidify the hold of the state religion.[8]

As the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as its state religion, apostasy became formally criminalized in the Theodosian Code, followed by the Corpus Juris Civilis (i.e. the Justinian Code).[9] The Justinian Code went on to form the basis of law in most of Western Europe during the Middle Ages and, thus, apostasy was similarly persecuted to varying degrees in Europe throughout this period and into the early modern period. Eastern Europe (the Russian Empire, etc.) similarly inherited many of its legal traditions regarding apostasy from the Romans, though not through the Justinian Code.

With the rise of Islam came a relative religious tolerance in the Middle Eastern regions. Nevertheless, as the Middle Ages progressed the successive Islamic caliphates began to enforce their own laws against apostasy, often modeled on those of the Romans and the Europeans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy


The killing of Apostates is not commanded in Islam
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Old 02-26-2016, 09:59 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Even in Islamic Nations an Apostate will usually be left alone, unless he begins proselytizing another religion.
Why? What is the fear?
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Old 02-27-2016, 12:43 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Shaking faith: How ISIS is causing Muslims to abandon Islam

I came across this article while doing some web searching and wonder what some people here have to say about it.
Noted this statement in the article;

"ISIS, who act like a cult with gang-like behaviour, have nothing to do with Islam; they do not represent Muslims across the world."
My point;
A Muslim is an adherent of Islam.
Islam is solely represented by the Quran.
A true Muslim must therefore obey and comply with whatever is in the Quran.


From my extensive reading and researching of the Quran, the Muslims of ISIS comply with the Quran and probably with more elements than the 'moderate' Muslims.
Therefore the members of ISIS are Muslims and has some thing to do with Islam.


There is no expectations in the Quran for the members of ISIS to represent Muslims across the world.


Muslims are adherent of Islam in many forms, i.e. as individual[s], a specific group, sect, Madhab and various organizations.
Therefore ISIS need not represent all Muslims but rather represent themselves as a group and critically as individual to Allah on Judgment Day.


Islam as represented by the Quran is dualistic in nature. Islam is partly good as well as partly evil [as defined].
Those who follow the good will be true Muslims while those who follow the evil [as defined] elements are also true Muslims. Both will be rewarded by Allah on Judgment Day with eternal life in Paradise in accordance to what they sowed on Earth in accordance to the Quran.


The problem is the Quran is supposed to be immutable, i.e. whatever is from an all-powerful infallible god cannot be edited, changed nor removed.
Since the partial evil elements in the Quran cannot be removed, the only option for some is to remove themselves from the religion.
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Old 02-27-2016, 12:46 AM
 
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Islam is uwhat is in the Qur'an and there is no death penalty in the Qur'an for leaving Islam. The Qur'an is clear that there is no compulsion in religion either way.

Most non-Muslims have wrong impression of Islam. They think that if a Muslim prays it is according to Islam, if he commits suicide it is according to Islam, if he drinks alcohol it is according to Islam and if he kills an apostate it is according to Islam. Not everything Muslims do is according to Islam. To understand Islam, one has to understand the Qur'an rather than actions of people called Muslims. It's true that a lot they do is according to Islam (the Qur'an) but not everything sometimes.
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Old 02-27-2016, 01:07 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The killing of Apostates is not commanded in Islam
The Quran is the sole representative of Islam.
The Quran do not specifically sanction the killing of Apostates.
So yes, The killing of Apostates is not commanded in Islam-proper.


However the critical problem is the majority [appx 90%] of Muslims insist within the justifications [based on consensus] and consider the Hadiths [authentic ones] as having the indirect authority of Allah via the sayings of Muhammad.
To them Islam is represented by the Quran + Ahadith [authentic].
There are hadith that sanction the killing of apostates.
Therefore for the Ahadith-based-Muslims, Islam command the killing of apostates.
In the meantime SOME evil prone believers of the Ahadith-based-Muslims are actually killing apostates based on their understand that Allah sanctioned it via the Ahadith. This is real.


Some Muslims, especially the Quran-Only Muslims do not accept the Ahadiths as valid authority from Allah, therefore they will agree 'The killing of Apostates is not commanded in Islam-proper'.
If the Quran-Only view is correct, then the Ahadith-based-Muslims must be told they are wrong.


But the Ahadith-based-Muslims are the 90%+ majority, so who can tell they are wrong. Another problem is most Muslims by nature are very sensitive and will not hesitate to kill any one they think is insulting and threatening their religion which is sanction by Allah in the Quran.


Another problem is even though in principle 'The killing of Apostates is not commanded in Islam-proper as per the Quran, it is the minority's [appx. 10%] views. In general the majority's [90%+] views is always deemed the correct view [even if it wrong].


In this case, we cannot blame the general public non-Muslims in thinking that 'The killing of Apostates is commanded in Islam.'


From the above the truth cannot prevail at present due to the majority's holding the other view.
Thus apostates will continue to be killed as commanded in Islam [Ahadith-based-Islam].
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Old 02-27-2016, 02:23 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,037,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In this case, we cannot blame the general public non-Muslims in thinking that 'The killing of Apostates is commanded in Islam.'
Why not? Should they not verify before blaming Islam in their thinking?

Quote:
From the above the truth cannot prevail at present due to the majority's holding the other view.
Thus apostates will continue to be killed as commanded in Islam [Ahadith-based-Islam].
Truth will prevail each time Muslims and non-Muslims understand the Qur'an
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Old 02-27-2016, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran is the sole representative of Islam.
The Quran do not specifically sanction the killing of Apostates.
So yes, The killing of Apostates is not commanded in Islam-proper.


However the critical problem is the majority [appx 90%] of Muslims insist within the justifications [based on consensus] and consider the Hadiths [authentic ones] as having the indirect authority of Allah via the sayings of Muhammad.
To them Islam is represented by the Quran + Ahadith [authentic].
There are hadith that sanction the killing of apostates.
Therefore for the Ahadith-based-Muslims, Islam command the killing of apostates.
In the meantime SOME evil prone believers of the Ahadith-based-Muslims are actually killing apostates based on their understand that Allah sanctioned it via the Ahadith. This is real.


Some Muslims, especially the Quran-Only Muslims do not accept the Ahadiths as valid authority from Allah, therefore they will agree 'The killing of Apostates is not commanded in Islam-proper'.
If the Quran-Only view is correct, then the Ahadith-based-Muslims must be told they are wrong.


But the Ahadith-based-Muslims are the 90%+ majority, so who can tell they are wrong. Another problem is most Muslims by nature are very sensitive and will not hesitate to kill any one they think is insulting and threatening their religion which is sanction by Allah in the Quran.


Another problem is even though in principle 'The killing of Apostates is not commanded in Islam-proper as per the Quran, it is the minority's [appx. 10%] views. In general the majority's [90%+] views is always deemed the correct view [even if it wrong].


In this case, we cannot blame the general public non-Muslims in thinking that 'The killing of Apostates is commanded in Islam.'


From the above the truth cannot prevail at present due to the majority's holding the other view.
Thus apostates will continue to be killed as commanded in Islam [Ahadith-based-Islam].
Actually up until recent years and the formation of terrorist organizations, starting with the formation of al-Qaida to fight the Russians in Afghanistan, the killing of apostates was treated as an act of Murder. Which is what it is.

The Ahadith probably should not be read by any Muslim until he has completed at least basic courses in Islamic studies and "The Sciences of Hadith" they are not to be taken as rulings but rather as a source for determining Islamic Jurisprudence.

They are greatly misunderstood and misused. I am not a Hadith rejector, but I think it is understandable that there are hadith rejectors and those that are non-Madhab. Ahadith are simply tools that if used properly can help one understand Islam.

ahadith need to be read as one would read any History compilation, not as commands but as reflections of the memories of those who lived in an era and with awareness they are only as accurate as the memory of the witness and his own biased perception.
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Old 02-27-2016, 10:05 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That is what many non-Muslims do not comprehend. We do not belong to a group. When it comes down to the essentials each Muslim is his entire congregation and our Mosque is the area we occupy in salat, no matter where that is.
Almost all non-muslims and even some uneducated Muslims do not understand that "masjid" ("mosque" in English) does not mean a building in which Muslims pray but it is the area on the ground where "sajda" (prostration) is done during salat. In Islamic countries, travelers often mark the spots with a few stones to show the place has been used as masjid.
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Old 02-27-2016, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
Why? What is the fear?
We believe that once a person has accepted Islam and is knowledgeable of Allaah(swt) to leave Islam is a form of Shirk an unpardonable sin that absolutly guarantees eternal heel if they do not recant before their.
last breath

We believe that to try to get a Muslim to leave Islam is worse than attempted murer as murder results in only the death of the body, but leaving Islam results in eternal hell.

I say attempt as no one can cause another to accept or leave Islam, it is their own choices that decides. But proselytizing is seen as an attempt to drag Muslims into Hellfire, that is why it is prohibited.
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Old 02-27-2016, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Almost all non-muslims and even some uneducated Muslims do not understand that "masjid" ("mosque" in English) does not mean a building in which Muslims pray but it is the area on the ground where "sajda" (prostration) is done during salat. In Islamic countries, travelers often mark the spots with a few stones to show the place has been used as masjid.
I also find non-Muslims do not comprehend when I try to explain I do not join a Mosque, because the Mosque is always where I am.
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