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Old 03-01-2016, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,609,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I know more about this subject than you do, despite you reading the Qur'an 50+ times.
Allah had told Muhammad that his only duty was to deliver the message. It was not his duty to explain it. If delivering was preaching then fine. I have no objection to it.
Note I have not claimed to be an expert on the Quran. Assuming the average reader, reading 50 times is better than reading 10 times relative to myself and better than others who had read in 6-7 times.

[/quote]Khadijah had converted immediately after he had received the first revelation. He had not preached but just told Khadijah what happened on the Mountain of Light. [/quote]I don't know the exact truth. One thing I am sure is God do not exists thus there is no Quran from a God.


I agree, according to the Quran and as a messenger of Allah Muhammad was supposed to recite the pure Quran from Allah and nothing else.
However inferring based on generic human nature, Muhammad would have wore many hats.
I gave many examples.
It is very likely Muhammad would have preached in some ways to convert Khadijah.



Quote:
No.
1. It was not chapter 97:1-5 but the verses 1-5 of chapter 96.
2. The verses 1-5 were intially for Muhammad to read or recite there and then rather than preach. At that moment, he was not commanded to deliver the message.
3. It was about 2 years later that he received the call again to recite in the name of Allah during the night prayer.
4. It was about 7 years before he could deliver the Qur'anic revelation openly outside his close family members and friends.
You missed my point.
I know chapter 96 [19 verses] is the first chapter where Muhammad was ordered to 'read.'
I merely mentioned [a guess] chapter 97 [5 verses] which is an initial chapter and he could have preached by then.


My point in general was Muhammad did preach as a preacher in addition to being an appointed messenger.
As a messenger he has to recite strictly in accordance to Allah's words.
As an ordinary Joe, he would have preached what he had recited earlier.


Because I am sure God do not exists, therefore no Quran from God,
the likely truth was the Quran was from Muhammad and he would have preached his own words.
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Old 03-02-2016, 12:54 AM
 
3,206 posts, read 1,063,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Note I have not claimed to be an expert on the Quran. Assuming the average reader, reading 50 times is better than reading 10 times relative to myself and better than others who had read in 6-7 times.
Quote:
Khadijah had converted immediately after he had received the first revelation. He had not preached but just told Khadijah what happened on the Mountain of Light.
Quote:
I don't know the exact truth. One thing I am sure is God do not exists thus there is no Quran from a God.


I agree, according to the Quran and as a messenger of Allah Muhammad was supposed to recite the pure Quran from Allah and nothing else.
However inferring based on generic human nature, Muhammad would have wore many hats.
I gave many examples.
It is very likely Muhammad would have preached in some ways to convert Khadijah.

You missed my point.
I know chapter 96 [19 verses] is the first chapter where Muhammad was ordered to 'read.'
I merely mentioned [a guess] chapter 97 [5 verses] which is an initial chapter and he could have preached by then.

My point in general was Muhammad did preach as a preacher in addition to being an appointed messenger.
As a messenger he has to recite strictly in accordance to Allah's words.
As an ordinary Joe, he would have preached what he had recited earlier.

Because I am sure God do not exists, therefore no Quran from God,
the likely truth was the Quran was from Muhammad and he would have preached his own words.
Well, we can carry on being "sure" one way or the other without proof but where is it going to lead us? You carry on being sure that there is no God and I will carry on believing that without an uncreated God there would have been no existence of any living being.
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Old 03-02-2016, 01:05 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,609,215 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Well, we can carry on being "sure" one way or the other without proof but where is it going to lead us? You carry on being sure that there is no God and I will carry on believing that without an uncreated God there would have been no existence of any living being.
If you are sure the DEFAULT and convention is you must provide proofs for your positive assertion, God exists, especially in the critical claim that has serious implications for humanity.


1. God do not exists.
2. Theists can never provide proofs for it.
3. The real reason why theists insist God exists is because of their inherent psychological drive for a god to deal with an inherent existential dilemma.
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Old 03-02-2016, 01:36 AM
 
3,206 posts, read 1,063,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you are sure the DEFAULT and convention is you must provide proofs for your positive assertion, God exists, especially in the critical claim that has serious implications for humanity.


1. God do not exists.
2. Theists can never provide proofs for it.
3. The real reason why theists insist God exists is because of their inherent psychological drive for a god to deal with an inherent existential dilemma.
And you are sure without any ptoof. I get it.
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Old 03-02-2016, 03:46 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 762,425 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
And you are sure without any ptoof. I get it.
There is proof that the supernatural does not exist. Even you do not go around accepting the supernatural as a given. Why don't you believe in vampires? Elephants that fly? Fairies and unicorns? There is a as much proof and logic in that as what you have in your god. Why do you spew nonsense about the supernatural, but act in strict accord with natural law?

Every argument for God and every attribute ascribed to Him rests on a false metaphysical premise. None can survive for a moment on a correct metaphysics.

For instance, God is infinite. Nothing can be infinite, according to the Law of Identity. Everything is what it is, and nothing else. It is limited in its qualities and in its quantity: it is this much, and no more. “Infinite” as applied to quantity does not mean “very large”: it means “larger than any specific quantity.” That means: no specific quantity—i.e., a quantity without identity. This is prohibited by the Law of Identity.

Is God the creator of the universe? There can be no creation of something out of nothing. There is no nothing.

Is God omnipotent? Can he do anything? Entities can act only in accordance with their natures; nothing can make them violate their natures.

“God” as traditionally defined is a systematic contradiction of every valid metaphysical principle. The point is wider than just the Judeo-Christian-Islamic concept of God. No argument will get you from this world to a supernatural world. No reason will lead you to a world contradicting this one. No method of inference will enable you to leap from existence to a “super-existence.”

There is no way to prove a “super-existence” by inference from existence; supernaturalism can be accepted only on blind faith.

On top of that, we have the stupidity of the Quran. No superbeing would write such trash.
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Old 03-02-2016, 04:08 PM
 
3,206 posts, read 1,063,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Is God the creator of the universe? There can be no creation of something out of nothing. There is no nothing.
There can be no creation from nothing and nothing can't create anything. There has never been nothing but always an uncreated Creator.

Quote:
On top of that, we have the stupidity of the Quran. No superbeing would write such trash.
No superbeing wrote it. Only a trash would think that a superbeing wrote it.
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Old 03-02-2016, 08:32 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 762,425 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There can be no creation from nothing and nothing can't create anything. There has never been nothing but always an uncreated Creator.


No superbeing wrote it. Only a trash would think that a superbeing wrote it.
Nope, nothing is infinite. There is a use of [the concept] “infinity” which is valid, as Aristotle observed, and that is the mathematical use. It is valid only when used to indicate a potentiality, never an actuality.

Right, a pedophile monster write the Quran.
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,609,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
There can be no creation from nothing and nothing can't create anything.
Can you prove this assertion of yours.


Quote:
There has never been nothing but always an uncreated Creator.
Again can you prove this?


There is no doubts 'cause and effect' is a common sense theory, i.e. every effect must have a cause.
Based on this rule, you cannot have an uncreated Creator, there must be some thing that created God.


If you understand Hume [a very famous philosopher] there is no ultimate principle that for every effect there is a cause.
Hume proved that such a conjured rule is ultimately due to one's psychology of custom, constant conjunction and habit.


This is why I insisted a belief in God as the ultimate uncreated Creator is due to the desperate psychology within humans and thus theists end up with theism.


What is a thing?
Philosophically there is no ultimate 'thing' from the empirical thing.
If there is no ultimate thing, then, there is nothing as real.
Thus 'nothing' [ultimate] can produce some thing [empirical].


Note from the famous philosopher, Bertrand Russell's ultimately there is no table at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
Such questions are bewildering, and it is difficult to know that even the strangest hypotheses may not be true. Thus our familiar table, which has roused but the slightest thoughts in us hitherto, has become a problem full of surprising possibilities. The one thing we know about it is that it is not what it seems. Beyond this modest result, so far, we have the most complete liberty of conjecture. Leibniz tells us it is a community of souls: Berkeley tells us it is an idea in the mind of God; sober science, scarcely less wonderful, tells us it is a vast collection of electric charges in violent motion.
Among these surprising possibilities, doubt suggests that perhaps there is no table at all. Philosophy, if it cannot answer so many questions as we could wish, has at least the power of asking questions which increase the interest of the world, and show the strangeness and wonder lying just below the surface even in the commonest things of daily life.
-Bertrand Russell.
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Old 03-03-2016, 04:09 PM
 
3,206 posts, read 1,063,085 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Can you prove this assertion of yours.

Again can you prove this?
I don't have to prove it. It is proving itself.

Quote:
There is no doubts 'cause and effect' is a common sense theory, i.e. every effect must have a cause.
Based on this rule, you cannot have an uncreated Creator, there must be some thing that created God.
If you think a little deeper about the common sense theory, there would be nothing in existence at all. But we already know that there is existence and, therefore, there had to be an Uncreated that created it all. That Uncreated is God. Who created the Uncreated? Uncreated does not need to be created.

Quote:
If you understand Hume [a very famous philosopher] there is no ultimate principle that for every effect there is a cause.
Hume proved that such a conjured rule is ultimately due to one's psychology of custom, constant conjunction and habit.
The reason you asked, who created God despite God being Uncreated.

Quote:
This is why I insisted a belief in God as the ultimate uncreated Creator is due to the desperate psychology within humans and thus theists end up with theism.
You can't use cause and effect theory, reject it, and then use it again. There is only One Uncreated Creator rather than "ultimate uncreated creator" too.

Quote:
What is a thing?
Philosophically there is no ultimate 'thing' from the empirical thing.
If there is no ultimate thing, then, there is nothing as real.
Thus 'nothing' [ultimate] can produce some thing [empirical].
Philosophically, you have just gone round walking and come round crawling. Ultimate 'thing' is not 'nothing'. Once a philosopher flips over, he begins to see nothing as the thing. Once he flips over again, he asks, if...
Therefore, philosophical 'nothing' is Uncreated God for many.
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Old 03-03-2016, 07:21 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 762,425 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I don't have to prove it. It is proving itself.


If you think a little deeper about the common sense theory, there would be nothing in existence at all. But we already know that there is existence and, therefore, there had to be an Uncreated that created it all. That Uncreated is God. Who created the Uncreated? Uncreated does not need to be created.

The reason you asked, who created God despite God being Uncreated.

You can't use cause and effect theory, reject it, and then use it again. There is only One Uncreated Creator rather than "ultimate uncreated creator" too.

Philosophically, you have just gone round walking and come round crawling. Ultimate 'thing' is not 'nothing'. Once a philosopher flips over, he begins to see nothing as the thing. Once he flips over again, he asks, if...
Therefore, philosophical 'nothing' is Uncreated God for many.
Existence exists, and only existence exists. Existence is a primary: it is uncreated, indestructible. So if you are to postulate something beyond existence—some supernatural realm—you must do it by openly denying reason, dispensing with definitions, proofs, arguments, and saying flatly, “To Hell with argument, I have faith.” That, of course, is a willful rejection of reason.

There is no supernatural dimension that is a contradiction of nature, of existence. This applies not only to God, but also to every variant of the supernatural ever advocated or to be advocated. In other words, there is reality, and that’s all.
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