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Old 03-04-2016, 11:31 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is not a question of deserve.

I do not know what you deserve. I am certain you will be rewarded for the good you do in life. I also know that You are free to choose any path in life you desire to follow. The destination is the result of the path you choose. People do not get sent to Hell, they go of their own free will and with knowledge of what their destination will be.

As for the "Punishments of Hell, I follow a school of thought that believes those are metaphors or similes to help us understand that which we can not comprehend. I do not have the faintest idea of what heaven or hell are. I can not comprehend the concepts of the unseen, but based upon the metaphors I feel that heaven is my preferred destination.

I do not want you or anyone else to ever be tortured for any reason, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to make your own decisions to choose your own destiny and to believe as you your self have verified.
Here is what you have said to me:

"as for all disbelievers going to hell. I think it is sad that they choose to do so. but the choice is there own. It is through their own decisions and choices that they choose to go to hell. Every person that ends up in hell is perfectly aware that they were not 'Sent" there. They knew they had the choice between heaven and hell and they chose freely and with knowledge."

And, between that and what you have said above, you do indeed think we deserve hell. You went on to say:

"I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."

Yea, the love of a psychopath warning people to hand over their children or he'll start shooting them and you. How very evil.
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Old 03-04-2016, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Here is what you have said to me:

"as for all disbelievers going to hell. I think it is sad that they choose to do so. but the choice is there own. It is through their own decisions and choices that they choose to go to hell. Every person that ends up in hell is perfectly aware that they were not 'Sent" there. They knew they had the choice between heaven and hell and they chose freely and with knowledge."

And, between that and what you have said above, you do indeed think we deserve hell. You went on to say:

"I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."

Yea, the love of a psychopath warning people to hand over their children or he'll start shooting them and you. How very evil.
It I were to choose to put my hand into a blazing furnace of my own free will and fully knowing what will happen,would you blame the furnace manufacturer?
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Old 03-04-2016, 02:04 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It I were to choose to put my hand into a blazing furnace of my own free will and fully knowing what will happen,would you blame the furnace manufacturer?
Actually, if I warn you not to jump down the cliff because you would fall straight into fire below, and you call me "stupid", and never believe me, and jump straight into fire, it would not be evil of me to warn you.
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Old 03-04-2016, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Actually, if I warn you not to jump down the cliff because you would fall straight into fire below, and you call me "stupid", and never believe me, and jump straight into fire, it would not be evil of me to warn you.
You are changing context in this case which has two perspective, i.e.


1. Metaphysical and Supernatural
2. Empirical


The case of the empirical is obvious as this can be easily be proven, i.e. one will die in a real fire from a tall cliff.


However;
yhe case with Allah warning disbelievers of Hell is Metaphysical and of the supernatural.
Your example of jumping down the cliff is empirical and of real things.


It is logical fallacy, i.e. intellectually immature to conflate the above two perspectives which are different. It is like trying to fit square pegs into round holes.


To be of the same sense, you need to bring in a example of the supernatural, e.g.
"If I warn you must believe in ghosts [supernatural] otherwise not they will appear to take you away at night. If the ghost take you away to their hell, don't call me stupid nor blame me."
This is logical because you have use the same sense.
But while it is logical, it is not sound, i.e. cannot be real and supernatural ghosts do not exists.


Suggest you take lessons in logic.


The point is most theists [not all] are psychologically desperate and they will twist and turn to get to what they believe is right when it is it wrong.
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Old 03-05-2016, 07:16 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,370 times
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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of Allah, The One GOD, The Most Compassionate, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum, The peace be upon you, everyone.

ISIS, who is trying to change Islams Principles, from non-aggression and moderation, to terrorism, the murder of innocent civilians, and Muslims, is nearing the end of their road. Many who have joined them are trying to find a way out; to leave IS. The IS, apparently has a drug problem. And Russia, is bombing their infrastructure to such a degree, that the US, Britain and France are joining them. IS, has accumulated millions of dollars per day selling oil. That has come to a halt. I cannot imagine anyone wanting to join them. But many people are out of work and they (IS), were paying a fair salary.



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Old 03-05-2016, 07:31 AM
 
352 posts, read 308,370 times
Reputation: 54
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of Allah, The One GOD, The Most Compassionate, The Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum, The peace be upon you, everyone.



Quote:
To be of the same sense, you need to bring in a example of the supernatural, e.g.
"If I warn you must believe in ghosts [supernatural] otherwise not they will appear to take you away at night. If the ghost take you away to their hell, don't call me stupid nor blame me."
This is logical because you have use the same sense.
But while it is logical, it is not sound, i.e. cannot be real and supernatural ghosts do not exists.

Suggest you take lessons in logic.

The point is most theists [not all] are psychologically desperate and they will twist and turn to get to what they believe is right when it is it wrong.

But, ghost do exist. And, I too, have seen them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit...ed_Spirits.png
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Old 03-05-2016, 01:18 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,038,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are changing context in this case which has two perspective, i.e.

1. Metaphysical and Supernatural
2. Empirical

The case of the empirical is obvious as this can be easily be proven, i.e. one will die in a real fire from a tall cliff.
You did not even wait for proof; you just jumped. I knew that there is fire below but you did not know about it. That' s why you did not believe me and had called me stupid. If it was obvious to you, you should not have called me stupid.

This was just to show that if one can disbelieve warning about something in this life, s/he is not going to believe warning about something that is not even in this life. If you can't see something, chances are that the warning will not be taken seriously whether it is about fire or hell.
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Old 03-05-2016, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Here is what you have said to me:

"as for all disbelievers going to hell. I think it is sad that they choose to do so. but the choice is there own. It is through their own decisions and choices that they choose to go to hell. Every person that ends up in hell is perfectly aware that they were not 'Sent" there. They knew they had the choice between heaven and hell and they chose freely and with knowledge."

And, between that and what you have said above, you do indeed think we deserve hell. You went on to say:

"I do not believe that is hatred. It is an act of giving people free will and allowing us to choose as we desire. The Qur'an is pointing out the consequences for our own actions......Sounds like an act of love to warn people of the probable consequences of what their choices will be."

Yea, the love of a psychopath warning people to hand over their children or he'll start shooting them and you. How very evil.
Not once did I ever say I believe any one deserves Hell. I am saying no one is sent there they go there of there own free will with full knowledge of what they are choosing. I do not believe anyone will go to Hell simply because they are not Muslim

I also follow the school of thought that the Biblical and Qur'anic descriptions of heaven and Hell are metaphorical as we are not capable of comprehending them. My own opinion is the actual choices are to either be with Allaah(swt) or distance our self from him and all he has created. Which in my opinion over time would be many times se than the metaphorical description of Hell. to spend eternity without the presence of Allaah(swt) for myself would be much worse than eternal physical torture.

Basically in my opinion hell is the Atheist concept of death except the consciousness and awareness exist for eternity.with nothing to interact with or experience except our own thoughts. Total separation from God(swt) and all He has created.The epitome of Atheism with nothing existing excepts one's own thoughts.


The only way to warn all people of Hell is to describe it in a manner that can be understand by all people.
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Old 03-05-2016, 02:31 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,713 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Not once did I ever say I believe any one deserves Hell. I am saying no one is sent there they go there of there own free will with full knowledge of what they are choosing. I do not believe anyone will go to Hell simply because they are not Muslim

I also follow the school of thought that the Biblical and Qur'anic descriptions of heaven and Hell are metaphorical as we are not capable of comprehending them. My own opinion is the actual choices are to either be with Allaah(swt) or distance our self from him and all he has created. Which in my opinion over time would be many times se than the metaphorical description of Hell. to spend eternity without the presence of Allaah(swt) for myself would be much worse than eternal physical torture.

Basically in my opinion hell is the Atheist concept of death except the consciousness and awareness exist for eternity.with nothing to interact with or experience except our own thoughts. Total separation from God(swt) and all He has created.The epitome of Atheism with nothing existing excepts one's own thoughts.


The only way to warn all people of Hell is to describe it in a manner that can be understand by all people.
You said: ""as for all disbelievers going to hell. I think it is sad that they choose to do so. but the choice is there own (They made the choice and deserve the consequences). It is through their own decisions and choices that they choose (DESERVE) to go to hell. Every person that ends up in hell is perfectly aware that they were not 'Sent" there. They knew they had the choice between heaven and hell and they chose freely and with knowledge (THEY DESERVE TO GO THERE)."

Deserve: to have earned because of some act or quality

We have earned being sent to hell because we don't submit to allah, don't believe in allah, refuse to convert, whatever.

I don't much care what you claim to believe in. I know what the Quran says.
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Old 03-05-2016, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
You said: ""as for all disbelievers going to hell. I think it is sad that they choose to do so. but the choice is there own (They made the choice and deserve the consequences). It is through their own decisions and choices that they choose (DESERVE) to go to hell. Every person that ends up in hell is perfectly aware that they were not 'Sent" there. They knew they had the choice between heaven and hell and they chose freely and with knowledge (THEY DESERVE TO GO THERE)."

Deserve: to have earned because of some act or quality

We have earned being sent to hell because we don't submit to allah, don't believe in allah, refuse to convert, whatever.

I don't much care what you claim to believe in. I know what the Quran says.
The words in parenthesis are yours not mine. Are we to assume that you are clairvoyant and know my thoughts? I never said they deserve it, it is simply a consequence of their action. I also said I do not believe Hell is the physical punishments described in the scriptures of the Abrahamic faiths. I said I believe they are metaphors so we can know the road to Hell is a poor choice to make. Heaven and Hell appear to be described in a manner that we can understand Heaven is a place where we wave all we could desire even in our wildest fantasies and Hell is described in a manner to show it is everything we desire to avoid. The important thing to know is that the final judgement is going to be just and fair. No one will be accountable for what they have neither the knowe not the ability to do. Our sincere good intentions will be rewarded as if we have actual done them and our bad intions will not be judged, only the actually evil we have done will be judged. We all including you and I wiwarded for our good deeds and good intentions.. With the rewards being much greater than what our deeds are worth.

You know and understand how you interpret the Qur'an, Just as I know how I understand and interpret the Qur'an.

Neither you nor I understand and know how anyone else understands and interprets the Qur'an

To understand how every Muslim understands and interprets it we have to ask each and every Muslim. There is no interpretation taught to Muslims as being the "Correct Interpretation" each of us has to search and on our own that which we our self have verified. No Muslim has the right to say their interpretation is the correct one as we can be in error, and it would be sinful to spread error as fact. We can express our individual opinions and give the reasons why we have such opinions but it is always just an opinion and we as individuals will acknowledge we accept full blame if we are wrong. Being Muslim is a life of questioning all things and seeking verification of what we find and to never accept another person's opinion unless we our self have found reason to agree with it.

We are not mass produced in a "Muslim factory" and all made from the same mold. We are not force fed any doctrine or teaching and told we have to believe it. We have to question all things and not believe except that which we our self have found to be true.
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