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Old 03-04-2016, 10:08 AM
 
120 posts, read 107,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
What does this mean, "And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess"????

Are you saying that Muhammed and his men attack an unarmed village, slaughter the men and boys and the women and girls get really horney for the men that just slaughtered their husbands, sons, fathers and brothers?

I'm kinda thinking rape is pretty strongly implied...like with Muhammed raping a 9 year old child. 9 year olds don't want old men to screw them. Really. Try it sometime. Try breaking into a house, slaughtering the men and boys and see if the women and girls want to have sex with you.

Are Muslims really this immoral and stupid?

First of all keep in mind that there is no mention of rape in any form or shape.... you made that word up and you started to believe yourself.


then, back to the topic, the whole story as I said is some of those Captives accepted Islam after some time (months, years,.......) of their captivity (please don't make it sound it was the same day) and in Islam, if a Woman becomes a Muslim, her marriage with a non Muslim is automatically void (Islam 101) and some of the companions wanted to marry some of those captives.....


Mohammed PBUH raping....... no, it didn't happen. please check your facts before vomiting on a public forum
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Old 03-04-2016, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Huntsville, AL
2,851 posts, read 916,603 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
...
As such there is no way Allah will grant favors to any non-Muslims.

I'm glad somebody got me straight on that! Now I don't have to worry about sending him a Christmas card...
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Old 03-04-2016, 10:24 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 751,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The key words are ALL Non-Muslims No where does the Qur'an state ALL NON_MUSLIMS will go to Hell.



But the point of Emphasis is that no where does the Qur'an state ALL Non-Muslims will spend eternity in Hell
Oh good grief. This again?

Let's remember that you (and Islam) says that we are all born Muslim. Let's not drop that context.


Pickthall
Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe. 8:55
I'm thinking allah is not inviting those ungrateful beasts to the orgy and will be sending them to that nasty hell.

2:21 O mankind, worship your Lord (worship implies belief, right??), who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous
(I'm thinking that means allah since it's in the quran)

2:22 (for context!) Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you. And do not set up rivals to Allah when ye know (better).

2:23 (for context!) And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful.

2:24 (here's the big one!!) But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.

Now, because I am sick of posting verse after verse, just go to The Noble Qur'an - and use the search feature. Look up disbelievers, unbelievers...look up hell.
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Old 03-04-2016, 11:04 AM
 
120 posts, read 107,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Are you dismissing the clear description of rape because the word rape was not used? Not very moral of you.

I am not dismissing anything, but the hadith or the verse doesn't say what you want them to say


[quote=juju33312;43240695]
Moderator cut: Orphaned

[quote=juju33312;43240695]
im sorry, the verse you quoted yourself is talking about purely marriage. I didn't quote that you did



Moderator cut: deleted

Last edited by june 7th; 03-08-2016 at 02:48 AM..
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Old 03-04-2016, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Oh good grief. This again?

Let's remember that you (and Islam) says that we are all born Muslim. Let's not drop that context.


Pickthall
Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe. 8:55
I'm thinking allah is not inviting those ungrateful beasts to the orgy and will be sending them to that nasty hell.

2:21 O mankind, worship your Lord (worship implies belief, right??), who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous
(I'm thinking that means allah since it's in the quran)

2:22 (for context!) Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you. And do not set up rivals to Allah when ye know (better).

2:23 (for context!) And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful.

2:24 (here's the big one!!) But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.

Now, because I am sick of posting verse after verse, just go to The Noble Qur'an - and use the search feature. Look up disbelievers, unbelievers...look up hell.
I do not use the"The Noble Qur'an" or any other Translation as I read Arabic. I only refer to them when it is in reference to what a non-Arabic reader understands them to say.

Your post does not say "All non-Muslims will go to Hell" There are Believers that are non-Muslims through no fault of their own. They will reach heaven also.


Also it may be very few possibly none who will reach the lowest level of Hell (Which is what is metaphorically described in the Qur'an) We are not positive how many levels of hell there are but it is generally accepted at leasr 7 with the highest level not being much different from life on earth except being eternal.

The key point in 8:55= "the ungrateful who will not believe." That means those who know what Islam is, have understood the Qur'an correctly and do believe God(swt) exists but deliberatly of their own free will refuse to serve Him.

"2:24 (here's the big one!!) But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it)," is basically the same as 8:55 in that a person has full knowledge and still deliberately refuses to submit.

8: 55 actually reads as:

إِنَّ شَرَّ الدَّوَابِّ عِندَ اللّهِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ فَهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ (8:55)

Inna sharra alddawabbi AAinda Allahi allatheena kafaroo fahum la yuminoona
لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ la yuminoona "those with the knowledge to believe, refuse to do so of their own free will"

a direct word by word translation;

la as a stand alone word means no, but when it precedes a word or words it makes all that come after it a negative.

.yuminoona indicates believing by choice and with knowledge.
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Old 03-04-2016, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The key words are ALL Non-Muslims No where does the Qur'an state ALL NON_MUSLIMS will go to Hell.

In reading the Qur'an we do not know who will go to Hell we do know there are some behaviors that lead to Hell but over all we are not told WHO will be go to Hell. The Qur'an also states the behaviors that will lead to Heaven. We are also told there are different levels of Hell and it appears that only the worse level is described in the Qur'an which seems to be pretty much reserved for hypocrites and apostates from Islam. We are also told that not all who follow the path hell will spend eternity there.

No person will go toeternal Hell unless they themselve choose to follow the path too it deliberately and with having been given the opportunity to learn what awaits those who choose Hell over heaven. We also know that all people Muslimand Non-Muslim will be rewarded for the good the do and punished for the rewards they do. the rewards being worth many times more than the value of their deeds and the evil never punushed in eccess of the value of their deeds. Theses rewards and punishments may come at anytime during our lifetime, in the grave, in the hereafter or in any combination.

We also know that not all who find them self in Hell will not spend eternity there.

We as Muslims have are not told in the Qur'an how to identify who is going to Hell, What level of punishment they will receive or how long they we will be there. We are simply warned of what is a possible out come if we choose the path to hell over the path to heaven.

The Qur'an does not dwell over Hell it's emphasis is on the benefits of choosing Heaven. Every person, no matter how evil their life has been has within them self the ability to choose Heaven if they desire to do so. for those who feel they prefer Hell over Heaven and have do desire to serve Allaah(swt) they are well warned of a possibility they might receive in Hell. I can not say, as I do not know, if the revealed punishments in the lowest level of hell are what will actually happen or are metaphorical descriptions to explain what eternity would be like if we choose to exclude our self from the presence of Allaah(swt)

But the point of Emphasis is that no where does the Qur'an state ALL Non-Muslims will spend eternity in Hell
You do not seem to have read the 6,236 verses of the Quran thoroughly, deeply and objectively.


The Quran did not state literally word for word "ALL Non-Muslims will spend eternity in Hell and tortured" but when one read the entire Quran, one will understand from the various presentations, non-Muslims will be sent to Hell and be tortured [burnt, etc.] for eternity.


There are nuances but in general the Quran differentiate between believers [Muslims] and non-believers [non-Muslims].
As I had mentioned there are 312 verses in the Quran that is related to Hell & Hellfire.
The overall message of these 312 verses is all non-believers, i.e. non-Muslims will go to Hell.


Here is a sample of verses to support my point;

3:12 Say (O Muhammad) unto those who disbelieve: Ye shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell, an evil resting-place.


4:121. For such, their [infidels] habitation will be hell, and they [infidels] will find no refuge therefrom.
4:122. But as for those [Muslims] who believe and do good works We shall bring them into gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. It is a promise from Allah in truth ; and who can be more truthful than Allah in utterance?


4:169 And they who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, such are rightful owners of Hell.
The above are merely 3 verses and there are more than 100s of similar verses that point in that direction, i.e. disbelievers and non-Muslims are destined to Hell.


On Judgment Day, non-Muslims will be segregated from the Muslims in a location in the hereafter and non-Muslims will be lined up and driven along unbearable heat towards Hellfire.


I suggest you reread the Quran again with a focus on the above point.
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Old 03-04-2016, 10:07 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
And the evil prone non- muslim is getting the exact same impression of the verses. Both misunderstand them.
Note the 3 verses I quoted

3:12 Say (O Muhammad) unto those who disbelieve: Ye shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell, an evil resting-place.


4:121. For such, their [infidels] habitation will be hell, and they [infidels] will find no refuge therefrom.
4:122. But as for those [Muslims] who believe and do good works We shall bring them into gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. It is a promise from Allah in truth ; and who can be more truthful than Allah in utterance?


4:169 And they who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, such are rightful owners of Hell.
What is there to misunderstand with the above verses.
Note there are 312 verses related to the 'subject' or topic of 'Hell' and 'Hellfire.' They are all directed negatively with condemnation towards the non-Muslims, kafara, kuffar, infidels.
You cannot prove me wrong on this point.


As usual most Muslims will be emotionally and psychologically bias and do not see and understand the negative implications such verses has on the evil prone Muslims and the evil and violence they commit on non-Muslims and other Muslims.
Those Muslims who ignored or are blind to such a negative impact are indirectly complicit to the evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.
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Old 03-04-2016, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You do not seem to have read the 6,236 verses of the Quran thoroughly, deeply and objectively.


The Quran did not state literally word for word "ALL Non-Muslims will spend eternity in Hell and tortured" but when one read the entire Quran, one will understand from the various presentations, non-Muslims will be sent to Hell and be tortured [burnt, etc.] for eternity.


There are nuances but in general the Quran differentiate between believers [Muslims] and non-believers [non-Muslims].
As I had mentioned there are 312 verses in the Quran that is related to Hell & Hellfire.
The overall message of these 312 verses is all non-believers, i.e. non-Muslims will go to Hell.


Here is a sample of verses to support my point;
3:12 Say (O Muhammad) unto those who disbelieve: Ye shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell, an evil resting-place.


4:121. For such, their [infidels] habitation will be hell, and they [infidels] will find no refuge therefrom.
4:122. But as for those [Muslims] who believe and do good works We shall bring them into gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide for ever. It is a promise from Allah in truth ; and who can be more truthful than Allah in utterance?


4:169 And they who disbelieve and deny Our revelations, such are rightful owners of Hell.
The above are merely 3 verses and there are more than 100s of similar verses that point in that direction, i.e. disbelievers and non-Muslims are destined to Hell.


On Judgment Day, non-Muslims will be segregated from the Muslims in a location in the hereafter and non-Muslims will be lined up and driven along unbearable heat towards Hellfire.


I suggest you reread the Quran again with a focus on the above point.
The point you are missing is Dis believer and non-Muslims are not the same, while a Disbeliever will be non-Muslim it does not mean a Muslim will be a disbeliever. the Qur'an is clear that the True Jews, Christians and Sabeeans were also believers and will go to heaven.

Not once in theQur'an are Jews, Christians and Sabeeans called Kafirun (Disbeliever) although in MSA ArabicKafir has become to mean non-Muslim. But we are not speaking of MSA Arabic we are speaking of Qur'anic Arabic which is not a conversational language and like Latin not prone to changes in meaning.

Some examples where the Qur'an states Christians, Jews and Sabeeans that followed their faith would go to heaven

The Holy Qur'an 2:62 – Translation by Yusuf Ali
Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

The Holy Qur'an 5:69 – Translation by Yusuf Ali
Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

The Holy Qur'an 21:94 – Translation by Yusuf Ali
Whoever works any act of righteousness and has faith,- His endeavor will not be rejected: We shall record it in his favour.

Therefore it is recognized that some non-Muslims are Believers. While some non-Muslims are also disbelievers not all are to be considered such. again I state that the Qur'an does not call all non-Muslims disbelievers.

Rudolph Valentino with his Sheikh Movies of the 1920s seems to have changed infidel from a French word coined by Pope Gregory into a popular word among Muslims specially Arab Muslims. I have never heard a Muslim use the word infidel and except for English Speaking Muslims it is rare to find a Muslim that will call anyone a Kafir. It is not up to us to decide who is a Kafir.

In it's original meaning infidel meant a non-Christian later it was specified to Non-Roman Catholic. It is only in the 1920s it began being used for non-Muslim.
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Old 03-05-2016, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,583,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The point you are missing is Dis believer and non-Muslims are not the same, while a Disbeliever will be non-Muslim it does not mean a Muslim will be a disbeliever. the Qur'an is clear that the True Jews, Christians and Sabeeans were also believers and will go to heaven.

Not once in theQur'an are Jews, Christians and Sabeeans called Kafirun (Disbeliever) although in MSA ArabicKafir has become to mean non-Muslim. But we are not speaking of MSA Arabic we are speaking of Qur'anic Arabic which is not a conversational language and like Latin not prone to changes in meaning.

Some examples where the Qur'an states Christians, Jews and Sabeeans that followed their faith would go to heaven

The Holy Qur'an 2:62 – Translation by Yusuf Ali
Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

The Holy Qur'an 5:69 – Translation by Yusuf Ali
Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

The Holy Qur'an 21:94 – Translation by Yusuf Ali
Whoever works any act of righteousness and has faith,- His endeavor will not be rejected: We shall record it in his favour.

Therefore it is recognized that some non-Muslims are Believers. While some non-Muslims are also disbelievers not all are to be considered such. again I state that the Qur'an does not call all non-Muslims disbelievers.

Rudolph Valentino with his Sheikh Movies of the 1920s seems to have changed infidel from a French word coined by Pope Gregory into a popular word among Muslims specially Arab Muslims. I have never heard a Muslim use the word infidel and except for English Speaking Muslims it is rare to find a Muslim that will call anyone a Kafir. It is not up to us to decide who is a Kafir.

In it's original meaning infidel meant a non-Christian later it was specified to Non-Roman Catholic. It is only in the 1920s it began being used for non-Muslim.
We have gone through this before;


Who is a Muslim?
1. A Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant [explicitly or implicitly] with Allah in relation to the Quran of old or present.
Implicit in this case refer to children of Muslim-parents.
2. A non-Muslim [whatever the name] is a person who has not entered into a covenant with Allah in relation to the Quran of old or present.


I don't see any dispute with the above. The above 1 & 2 are the primary basis for a definition of 'who is a Muslim' and 'who is a non-Muslim' regardless of whatever other terms [kafara, kafir, kuffar, infidels, disbelievers, the worst creatures, etc.] they are labeled. Note, "a rose by any name ..."


Christians, Jews and Sabeeans of old who has entered into a covenant [explicitly or implicitly] with Allah in relation to the Quran-of-old [editions prior to Muhammad] where applicable would be Muslims as mentioned in the present Quran.


However at the present there is no more genuine Quran-of-old. What the Jews and Christians have today are corrupted texts and not the whole genuine Quran-of-old from Allah.
Since the present Jews and Christians adopt the corrupted texts and not the genuine Quran-of-old sent by Allah they cannot be Muslims.


If they are not Muslims, logically they can only be non-Muslims.
Therefore no non-Muslim can never be a Muslim.


A Muslim at the present can only be a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah in accordance to the Quran recited by Muhammad within the period 610 to 632AD.


The Quran do not have to be precise in calling all non-Muslims disbelievers.
From reading the context of the whole Quran, i.e. 6,236 verses the meaning is clear, i.e.
all non-Muslims by definition [per the Quran] are disbelievers of Islam, i.e. do not believe in Allah as the only God and Muhammad as his final messenger.


Because the present Quran [re Muhammad] is the only holy texts from Allah at the present and all Quran-of-old had been corrupted there is no other way for one to be a Muslim other than based on the present Quran.
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Old 03-05-2016, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,284,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
We have gone through this before;


Who is a Muslim?
1. A Muslim is a person who has entered into a covenant [explicitly or implicitly] with Allah in relation to the Quran of old or present.
Implicit in this case refer to children of Muslim-parents.
2. A non-Muslim [whatever the name] is a person who has not entered into a covenant with Allah in relation to the Quran of old or present.


I don't see any dispute with the above. The above 1 & 2 are the primary basis for a definition of 'who is a Muslim' and 'who is a non-Muslim' regardless of whatever other terms [kafara, kafir, kuffar, infidels, disbelievers, the worst creatures, etc.] they are labeled. Note, "a rose by any name ..."


Christians, Jews and Sabeeans of old who has entered into a covenant [explicitly or implicitly] with Allah in relation to the Quran-of-old [editions prior to Muhammad] where applicable would be Muslims as mentioned in the present Quran.


However at the present there is no more genuine Quran-of-old. What the Jews and Christians have today are corrupted texts and not the whole genuine Quran-of-old from Allah.
Since the present Jews and Christians adopt the corrupted texts and not the genuine Quran-of-old sent by Allah they cannot be Muslims.


If they are not Muslims, logically they can only be non-Muslims.
Therefore no non-Muslim can never be a Muslim.


A Muslim at the present can only be a person who has entered into a covenant with Allah in accordance to the Quran recited by Muhammad within the period 610 to 632AD.


The Quran do not have to be precise in calling all non-Muslims disbelievers.
From reading the context of the whole Quran, i.e. 6,236 verses the meaning is clear, i.e.
all non-Muslims by definition [per the Quran] are disbelievers of Islam, i.e. do not believe in Allah as the only God and Muhammad as his final messenger.


Because the present Quran [re Muhammad] is the only holy texts from Allah at the present and all Quran-of-old had been corrupted there is no other way for one to be a Muslim other than based on the present Quran.
Then explain why a Muslim is forbidden to marry a disbeliever, but is permitted to marry a Jew, Christian or Sabeean and she is not required to convert?
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