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Old 03-03-2016, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
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Over 450,000 Join Iranian House Church Movement, 'Great Number of Muslims Turning to Christ'

Quote:
Hundreds of thousands of Christians are worshiping secretly in a rapidly accelerating house church movement in Iran, as a London-based theological center is aiding the movement by training the next generation of its spiritual leaders.

The Iranian government labels Christianity as a threat to the nation's Islamic identity and imprisons over 100 Christians for worshiping Christ. Such crackdowns on faith, however, have not prevented Iranian house churches from blossoming into a movement too big for the Iranian religious police to contain.

Some estimates, such as one provided by Open Doors USA, record as many as 450,000 practicing Christians in Iran, while other, more optimistic estimates, record over 1 million Christians in the Islamic republic.
Just came across this and found it interesting. I didn't realize that multiple religions were allowed to be practiced in Iran, given the power the religious nuts have in the running of the country. A little competition is probably a good thing. Maybe the same will happen in Saudi some day.
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Old 03-04-2016, 12:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Basically for most active ideology [religion or secular], there will always be a group that is pro, another groups that is against it and others are indifferent to it.
Thus those who happen to be caught in the wrong group will change their belief to the one they favor.


Thus as expected there will be Muslims who cross over to Christianity and vice-versa.


450,000??
Often such numbers are not verified officially and one side will always want to claim [exaggerate] a number that is as high as possible.


However recently I have read of many reports Muslims are turning away from Islam to Christianity, other religions or be atheist because they are embarrassed by the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims around the world. One critical reason why there not more Muslims turning to other religions is because of the apostasy laws in some countries.


I believe ultimate humanity should be weaned off all religions. However if one has no other choice but to stick to a religion, Christianity [it has it cons] is inherently a very much better religion [overriding pacifist] than Islam [has good and evil elements].
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Old 03-04-2016, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Basically for most active ideology [religion or secular], there will always be a group that is pro, another groups that is against it and others are indifferent to it.
Thus those who happen to be caught in the wrong group will change their belief to the one they favor.


Thus as expected there will be Muslims who cross over to Christianity and vice-versa.


450,000??
Often such numbers are not verified officially and one side will always want to claim [exaggerate] a number that is as high as possible.


However recently I have read of many reports Muslims are turning away from Islam to Christianity, other religions or be atheist because they are embarrassed by the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims around the world. One critical reason why there not more Muslims turning to other religions is because of the apostasy laws in some countries.


I believe ultimate humanity should be weaned off all religions. However if one has no other choice but to stick to a religion, Christianity [it has it cons] is inherently a very much better religion [overriding pacifist] than Islam [has good and evil elements].
While 23 of the 49 Islamic Majority Nations have laws concerning Apostasy only a couple have the death penalty and it is rarely enforced. In the entire history of Islam 7 Muslims where executed by a court order .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...d_for_apostasy However there have been people arrested for apostasy in Iran, Pakistan and Saudi but nearly always had their convictions turned over or were allowed to leave the country.

In most Islamic Nations other religions are permitted to openly practice their religion, but there are usually laws that prohibit public proselytizing of religion.

For the 23 Nations that have laws regarding apostasy here is a detailed link as to what those laws consist of:

Laws Criminalizing Apostasy

It is true that many recruits of ISIS are abandoning Islam. Many were non-Muslims that had converted to Islam for the purpose of joining ISIS. ISIS at one point was one of the highest paid mercenaries in the world with salaries of over $2,000 per week plus numerous opportunities to steal much more. This has changed rapidly with Russia bombing the bejabbers of the oil pipelines and cutting off their main source of income from oil sales. I will give Russia credit there, they where the only ones that had the gumption to hit ISIS where in hurt most---in the wallet. I am still irritated and disappointed that the US, UK and Saudi refused to bomb the pipelines that allowed ISIS to sell their stolen oil. But world wide there are still more converts to Islam than apostates from it. The largest number of converts to Islam are white Christian women I am trying to use only links from Non-Islamic sources

Converting to Islam: British women on prayer, peace and prejudice | World news | The Guardian


1.8 Million Christians converting to Islam because they actually believe in it makes me laugh, but 1.8 million converting because money issues, pressure, social climbing, promotions, threats, to divorce ,to marry several women

The Islamification of Britain: record numbers embrace Muslim faith | Home News | News | The Independent

Why are So Many Westerners Converting to Islam? | CBN.com (beta)

100,000 Islam converts living in UK: White women most keen to embrace Muslim faith | Daily Mail Online

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/wo...ance.html?_r=0

Muslim Converts in Germany: Angst-Ridden Germans Look for Answers -- And Find Them in the Koran - SPIEGEL ONLINE



Converts to Islam | Pew Research Center

Why So Many Latinos Are Becoming Muslims | WLRN

Growing numbers convert to Islam in PNG - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
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Old 03-06-2016, 08:49 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,049 times
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Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Bukhari (11:626) - "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses'."

Today, under much pressure from human rights organizations and the UN, slaughter of those leaving Islam is slowing down. But let's not forget the blasphemy laws. For example, in Pakistan apostates are vulnerable to charges of blasphemy, a potential capital offence.

Can any Muslim here say that Muhammed was evil to order the murder of people leaving Islam? I won't hold my breath.
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Old 03-06-2016, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (84:64-65) - "Allah's Apostle: 'During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Bukhari (11:626) - "The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr and the 'Isha' prayers and if they knew the reward for these prayers at their respective times, they would certainly present themselves (in the mosques) even if they had to crawl.' The Prophet added, 'Certainly I decided to order the Mu'adh-dhin (call-maker) to pronounce Iqama and order a man to lead the prayer and then take a fire flame to burn all those who had not left their houses so far for the prayer along with their houses'."

Today, under much pressure from human rights organizations and the UN, slaughter of those leaving Islam is slowing down. But let's not forget the blasphemy laws. For example, in Pakistan apostates are vulnerable to charges of blasphemy, a potential capital offence.

Can any Muslim here say that Muhammed was evil to order the murder of people leaving Islam? I won't hold my breath.
Are you saying we should lie to please you?

We can not say Muhammad(saws) was evil for murdering people that left Islam, because he never did such.It would be a lie if we claimed Muhammad(saws) murdered anyone.
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Old 03-06-2016, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Same is still true. Muhammad never ORDERED THE MURDER of anyone.

The "Sirat Rasul Allaah" Ishaq/Hisham is an unverified source for many reasons. It has no verification of anything in it.

Again the massive display of data does not enhance the credibility of your claim. Especially when much of it is repetition of the same Hadith Because any Ahadith have different numbers does not mean they are different . Most Ahadith are actually copied from Bukhari and Bukhari used the same Ahadith in multiple categories assigning them a different number for each category.
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Old 03-06-2016, 12:29 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Same is still true. Muhammad never ORDERED THE MURDER of anyone.

The "Sirat Rasul Allaah" Ishaq/Hisham is an unverified source for many reasons. It has no verification of anything in it.

Again the massive display of data does not enhance the credibility of your claim. Especially when much of it is repetition of the same Hadith Because any Ahadith have different numbers does not mean they are different . Most Ahadith are actually copied from Bukhari and Bukhari used the same Ahadith in multiple categories assigning them a different number for each category.
Each name represents an occurrence so we have quite a selection to consider. None of the names are duplicates.

I also used a variety of sources, not just "Sirat Rasul Allaah" Ishaq/Hisham.

Muhammed loved to have people slaughtered.

He went to her in the morning and she made a confession. And Allah's Messenger made pronouncement about her and she was stoned to death. (Sahih Muslim 4209)

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)


Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)
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Old 03-06-2016, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Each name represents an occurrence so we have quite a selection to consider. None of the names are duplicates.

I also used a variety of sources, not just "Sirat Rasul Allaah" Ishaq/Hisham.

Muhammed loved to have people slaughtered.

He went to her in the morning and she made a confession. And Allah's Messenger made pronouncement about her and she was stoned to death. (Sahih Muslim 4209)

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)


Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)
Sorry but in the Ahadith a seperate name is not an indication of a seperate occurance. To find the actual occurrence one needs to trace the Isnad of eachhadith. More often than not what you have are multiple witnesses of each occurrence. In Bukhari, with the exception of the Ahadith relating to Aisha there are a minimum of 4 witnesses for each occurance. Each being numbered by Bukhari as a seperate number. In addition every hadith is repeated in multiple categories (books) and again with a new number)

Bukhari established the rules of ahadith and one of the rules is that for it to be reliable there must be a minimum of 4 witnesses relating the exact same occurrence. He made an exception of his rule in the case of Aisha as virtually hall ahadith relating to Aisha have no witnesses. But in defense of Bukhari the nature of the Ahadith concerning Aisha are about events where it would not be likely for there to be any witnesses.
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Old 03-06-2016, 03:41 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 757,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Sorry but in the Ahadith a seperate name is not an indication of a seperate occurance. To find the actual occurrence one needs to trace the Isnad of eachhadith. More often than not what you have are multiple witnesses of each occurrence. In Bukhari, with the exception of the Ahadith relating to Aisha there are a minimum of 4 witnesses for each occurance. Each being numbered by Bukhari as a seperate number. In addition every hadith is repeated in multiple categories (books) and again with a new number)

Bukhari established the rules of ahadith and one of the rules is that for it to be reliable there must be a minimum of 4 witnesses relating the exact same occurrence. He made an exception of his rule in the case of Aisha as virtually hall ahadith relating to Aisha have no witnesses. But in defense of Bukhari the nature of the Ahadith concerning Aisha are about events where it would not be likely for there to be any witnesses.
The names are different and the events are different. So you are saying that the hadiths tell the same event with the same person except the names and events are different??

That's just inane. If that is how it works, all the ahadith are complete nonsense.

So, on my list, tell me which events and people are duplicated.

"The following series of arguments were presented by Moiz Amjad. We have chosen to analyze and respond to them specifically, due to his polemics encompassing every single claim made by other modern-day apologists who sometimes use a few, or even all of them as their own. They do this often without acknowledging Amjad as the true source of their claims.

First Argument: Number of Narrators[edit]
Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
"What was Ayesha's (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage to the Prophet (pbuh)?" (archived)
Moiz Amjad, Understanding-Islam, May 1, 1998.
This is a classic Straw man. There is no requirement in Islam for multiple narrations. Even a single sahih hadith is sufficient to establish Islamic laws and practices.

Try more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in that reported it directly from `A'isha, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha.
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Old 03-06-2016, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,334,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The names are different and the events are different. So you are saying that the hadiths tell the same event with the same person except the names and events are different??

That's just inane. If that is how it works, all the ahadith are complete nonsense.

So, on my list, tell me which events and people are duplicated.

"The following series of arguments were presented by Moiz Amjad. We have chosen to analyze and respond to them specifically, due to his polemics encompassing every single claim made by other modern-day apologists who sometimes use a few, or even all of them as their own. They do this often without acknowledging Amjad as the true source of their claims.

First Argument: Number of Narrators[edit]
Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
"What was Ayesha's (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage to the Prophet (pbuh)?" (archived)
Moiz Amjad, Understanding-Islam, May 1, 1998.
This is a classic Straw man. There is no requirement in Islam for multiple narrations. Even a single sahih hadith is sufficient to establish Islamic laws and practices.

Try more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in that reported it directly from `A'isha, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha.
The require ments for establishing an Islamic law will differ by Madhab. Even Islamic Jurists will tell you that the Criminal laws in the Madhabs are very incomplete and basically unusable, The Shariah criminal laws were abandoned by virtually every Islamic nation. Saudi is using the laws of the Moanarchy not Shariah and Iran is using the laws of the Ayatollah.

Look into the basic rules of "The Science of Hadith" for the answer to this:

Quote:
This is a classic Straw man. There is no requirement in Islam for multiple narrations. Even a single sahih hadith is sufficient to establish Islamic laws and practices.
Will also need to study each madhab and see how each uses ahadith

But getting back to "The Science of Hadith" and the rules of reliability: My error when I said 4

Beginning with the bare minimum of what constitutes a reliable Hadith:

1. The number of transmitters should be such that they are a group and not be restricted to any specific number. So whatever number proves to be a group, that is considered mutawatir. However, the minimum requirement is five. Four is not enough, because four are in need of another to attest their integrity (tazkiyah) if nothing is known about them when they give testimony for zina. The group accredited for tawatur (continuous transmission) is that it should not need any attestation (tazkiyah) so as to be definite by the mere notification of the report.

Categories of Hadith | Khilafah.com
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