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Old 03-07-2016, 02:06 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is an extract from an article:
Some say the word Awliyā' (أولياء) only means 'protector', not 'friend'. But this is not true, as the Islamic phrase walīyu 'llāh (ولي الله), means 'friend of God'.
To say walīyu 'llāh means “protector of God”, is slanderous in Islam. The word Al-Waliyu is also one of the 99 names of Allah.


From the above 'awliya' also refer to "friend." Thus is not wrong to interpret 'awliya' as 'friend'.
Therefore the various verses related to Awliyā' (أولياء) also imply Muslims cannot befriend Jews, Christians and non-Muslim.

This is another case of the Duck-Rabbit duality where either one can be true.

Agree?
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Old 03-07-2016, 06:21 AM
 
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Continuum,

It is clear to me now that you are now really trying to understand the Qur'an.

Wali in Arabic could mean, depending on the context, friend, ally, guardian, protector, trustworthy, helper and someone you can trust and rely upon etc etc. For example, father is wali of his children. Here you would translate wali as "guardian".

In terms of making friends with Jews, Christians and unbelievers, the prohibition is limited to those who wage war (are hostile) because of our religion. We are allowed in Islam to make friends with other peaceful Jews, Christians and unbelievers.
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Old 03-07-2016, 06:56 AM
 
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Ofcourse this is a wrong translation. Awliya means much more than a simply "friend" word. There are other words in Arabic to describe the simply a "friend" word. Awliya is used to mean the persons trusted fully with no doubt like you trust your mom.
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Old 03-07-2016, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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While it is true a wali will be your friend, it does not mean a friend will be your wali. For example my mother was probably my best friend, but she is the only friend that was my mother.

So yes a wali is a friend, but a very special level of friendship that can not be attained by someone who does not share your religious views.

A Christian might want me for their friend but they would never want me as a wali as I would not be a good Christian role model.

Like wise I have many Christian friends but not one is my wali as none of them would be good mentors of Islam.
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While it is true a wali will be your friend, it does not mean a friend will be your wali. For example my mother was probably my best friend, but she is the only friend that was my mother.

So yes a wali is a friend, but a very special level of friendship that can not be attained by someone who does not share your religious views.

A Christian might want me for their friend but they would never want me as a wali as I would not be a good Christian role model.

Like wise I have many Christian friends but not one is my wali as none of them would be good mentors of Islam.

Here a perfect explanation.
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Old 03-07-2016, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,
It is clear to me now that you are now really trying to understand the Qur'an.
If you think so.


In my own words, I am very research orientated and make every attempt to understand fully all books, articles, information on what I am researching into.
Note "fully understanding" the points do not necessary I agree with the points made.
It is very critical to fully understand the points before any one made a critique of its pros and cons.

Quote:
Wali in Arabic could mean, depending on the context, friend, ally, guardian, protector, trustworthy, helper and someone you can trust and rely upon etc etc. For example, father is wali of his children. Here you would translate wali as "guardian".
Besides the other terms, e.g. guardian, protector, so it is not wrong to interpret those verses in the Quran as implying Muslims cannot befriend Jews, Muslims or non-Muslims.

Quote:
In terms of making friends with Jews, Christians and unbelievers, the prohibition is limited to those who wage war (are hostile) because of our religion. We are allowed in Islam to make friends with other peaceful Jews, Christians and unbelievers.
If you have read the Quran at least 50 times you would have understood objectively Muslims are not to make friends with Jews and Christians in general.
In general "wali" is meant to be 'friend' in general rather than specifically protector, guardian, etc.


In addition the Quran made this very specific, i.e. do not befriend infidels.
3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends] others [infidels] than your own folk, who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper you [Muslims].
Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations if ye will understand.


The above is supported by a ton of verses in the 6,236 verses of the Quran that reflect contempt and hatred for the infidels.
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Old 03-07-2016, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
While it is true a wali will be your friend, it does not mean a friend will be your wali. For example my mother was probably my best friend, but she is the only friend that was my mother.

So yes a wali is a friend, but a very special level of friendship that can not be attained by someone who does not share your religious views.

A Christian might want me for their friend but they would never want me as a wali as I would not be a good Christian role model.

Like wise I have many Christian friends but not one is my wali as none of them would be good mentors of Islam.
The term "friend" can be a very loose term like the contentious 'believe' 'submit' and others like 'religion' 'love' etc.


A dog can also be a man's best friend.
If we rate friendship in terms of 1-Low to 100-high, I would rate 'wali' within the range of 20-100.
This meant the Quran implied Muslims should not befriend infidels at a friendship range of 20-100 which would include close casual friend.


I quote 3:118, where in the degree of friendship would range from 50-100, i.e. at intimate level.


Thus in general, the Quran forbid Muslims who befriend infidels.


There are no verses in the Quran that specifically state a Muslim can befriend infidels.
Therefore if a Muslim befriend infidels, s/he is doing it as a human being driven by positive human nature not because s/he is complying with the Quran.


The Quran even warn Muslims to beware and not to trust parents, children and relative who are infidels or if they are a threat to Islam or Muslims.
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Old 03-08-2016, 01:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
If you think so.


In my own words, I am very research orientated and make every attempt to understand fully all books, articles, information on what I am researching into.
Note "fully understanding" the points do not necessary I agree with the points made.
It is very critical to fully understand the points before any one made a critique of its pros and cons.
Good point!

Quote:
Besides the other terms, e.g. guardian, protector, so it is not wrong to interpret those verses in the Quran as implying Muslims cannot befriend Jews, Muslims or non-Muslims.
What does befriending Jews and Chrstians means? What is the extent of this "befriending"? When does friendship begin from just acquaintancship? How far can it go before it is not just befrieding but much more than befriending? All these questions have to be answered to understand what is meant by befriending Jews and Christians. In case of regarding someone as "wali", it is not only befriending but more than just befriending. You are relying on the person to protect you, you rely on him and expect to guard your interests too.

The verse should be seen in that light due to the context (immediately before the Meccan attack on Madina which resulted in battle at Uhad).

Quote:
If you have read the Quran at least 50 times you would have understood objectively Muslims are not to make friends with Jews and Christians in general. In general "wali" is meant to be 'friend' in general rather than specifically protector, guardian, etc.
As i stated, a Wali is more than a friend. In general, outside a blood relationship, one cannot become Wali of someone before becoming a kind of friend who cares for your interests and safeguards them. Another Arabic word for friend is Khalil (as in case of Abraham being friend of Allah).

Quote:
In addition the Quran made this very specific, i.e. do not befriend infidels.
3:118. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Take not for intimates [friends] others [infidels] than your own folk, who [these infidels] would spare no pains to ruin you [Muslims]; they [infidels] love to hamper you [Muslims].
Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their [infidels] mouths, but that which their [infidels] breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you [Muslims] the revelations if ye will understand.

The above is supported by a ton of verses in the 6,236 verses of the Quran that reflect contempt and hatred for the infidels.
The verse does not say "friends" or even "intimate friends" but "intimacy" in terms of revealing your secrets in a situation of war (Uhad at th time). Therefore, it should read: .."take not into intimacy others than your own people" (during war time)...
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Old 03-08-2016, 01:41 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Thus in general, the Quran forbid Muslims who befriend infidels.

There are no verses in the Quran that specifically state a Muslim can befriend infidels.
Therefore if a Muslim befriend infidels, s/he is doing it as a human being driven by positive human nature not because s/he is complying with the Quran.
There are no verses in the Qur'an that either forbid or command friendship of the kind you are thinking here with Jews and Christians.
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Old 03-08-2016, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
What does befriending Jews and Chrstians means? What is the extent of this "befriending"? When does friendship begin from just acquaintancship? How far can it go before it is not just befrieding but much more than befriending? All these questions have to be answered to understand what is meant by befriending Jews and Christians. In case of regarding someone as "wali", it is not only befriending but more than just befriending. You are relying on the person to protect you, you rely on him and expect to guard your interests too.

The verse should be seen in that light due to the context (immediately before the Meccan attack on Madina which resulted in battle at Uhad).

As i stated, a Wali is more than a friend. In general, outside a blood relationship, one cannot become Wali of someone before becoming a kind of friend who cares for your interests and safeguards them. Another Arabic word for friend is Khalil (as in case of Abraham being friend of Allah).

The verse does not say "friends" or even "intimate friends" but "intimacy" in terms of revealing your secrets in a situation of war (Uhad at th time). Therefore, it should read: .."take not into intimacy others than your own people" (during war time)...
Note the extensive effort I have put into researching the Quran.
For every of the 199 verses I have done a summary.
I will not be able to summarize the verse if I do have a good understanding of the verse and its context.
The shortfall is I have not number each verse yet [will do later].
Here is what I have done for Chapter 3 as with all chapters of the Quran;


v1. .....
v2. No God except Allah
The Quran revealed to Muhammad, confirms the original Torah & Gospel ...
In the past, Criterion revealed. Infidels who denied - doomed.
God Omniscient ...
Allah created humans in wombs.
Substance and allegorical verses of the Quran. Some doubt and interpret the allegorical causing dissension. Only Allah understand the allegories.
A prayer: Do Duty
A prayer: Acknowledge Allah's rule on J-Day.
On J-Day, infidels cannot be saved by wealth nor children. Doomed in Fire
The punishment of Pharaoh, a warning to Infidels ...
Infidels to Hell
The victory at Badr alluded to ...
Life of this world is good but the hereafter is better.
Gardens, virgins
Muslims: pray for forgiveness and avoidance from the Fire
Muslims: Steadfast, truthful, obedient, spend, pray for pardon ..
No God except Allah
Religion of Allah is 'Islam' [noun], infidels of old corrupt differ after knowledge, proofs came to them.
Don't debate with infidels. Messenger only to convey.
Those who slay prophets of old - doom
Infidels -work failed in world & Hereafter.
Muslim invoked Quran to judge, Some turned away in opposition
Because, infidels claim Fire of Hell will not touch them except for certain days. Infidels are deceived by their partners.
Truth is on J-Day infidels will be judged accordingly and punished
God is great
God is great - can do all things
v28. Do not take infidels as friends [awliyaa, allies, partners] [can be friend unless for security reasons]
Omniscient
J-Day, all will face their good and evil acts. Yearn for distance between good and evil.
Mo: If you love Allah, follow me.
Obey Allah & Messenger. Allah hate infidels
Allah preferred Adam, Noah, Abraham, Imran
They are descendant of one another
Wife of Imran pregnant
Wife of Imran give birth to Mary-her conception-nurtured by Zacharias ...
Zachariah - guardian of Mary. Allah gave food to Mary
Zachariah pray for good offspring
Zachariah sons' - John Baptist,
Zachariahs had son despite old age - God blessing - BE!
Zachariahs not to speak for 3 days except by sign.
Mary preferred by Allah
Mary to worship Allah
Story of old told to Muhammad
Mary given good news of a Son -Messiah- Jesus
Jesus will speak from the Cradle and in his adulthood
BE! Justification of he virgin birth.
Jesus taught the Torah and Gospel directly not the tainted written ones
Miracles of Jesus, bird out of clay, heal blind & lepe, raise the dead. Jesus advise what to eat, what to keep in house.
Jesus confirm the Torah, the original one not the current corrupted one.
Jesus: My lord is your lord
12 disciples will be Jesus helpers
Disciples believed in the revealed revelation
Jews plotted to kill Jesus, Allah spoiled their plans.
Allah caused Jesus to ascend to him. Allah set 'Muslims' above infidels.
Infidels will be punished on J-Day.
Muslims rewarded accordingly
Revelation as wise reminder recited to Mo.
Jesus birth like that of Adam
Mo not to waver to truth recited
Muhammad's dispute with the Christians of Najran ...
No God except Allah
Infidels who turn away are corrupters
Muslims request Jews and Christians to agree but subject to Islam's term.
Torah and Gospel did not exist before Abraham.
Jews and Christian do not has knowledge of the original message, therefore no credibility to argue.
Abraham was not a Jew nor Christian, but had Surrendered re original message.
Those who are with Abraham, his followers, this Prophet M and his followers.
A party of Jews and Christians - aggressive proselytizers.
Jews and Christians why disbelieve when you are witness to the original
Why change and hide the original message.
Some Jews - believe in morning, disbelieve in evening
Guidance is Allah's guidance. See [Al-Muntakhab] translation for detail
Allah - mercy whom he will
Muslims are trustworthy, Jews are not, they lie against Allah message.
Muslim who fulfill his pledge and ward off evil
Those who purchased a small gain, compromised their covenant and oath with Allah - doomed in Hereafter
Some Jews speak a lie, distort Scripture with their tongue.
Prophets cannot expect humans to be his divine 'slaves' only be slaves of Allah.
Prophets nor angels not to be worshipped as lords
Allude coming of Muhammad but This also imply other messengers will come after Prophet Muhammad.
Infidels turn away - miscreants
Infidel seek belief other than religion of Allah
All messengers of old were revealed that same revelation - no distinction between them
God's curse on Infidels ...
Apostates infidels
Apostates infidels -cursed by all
Apostates infidels - doomed
Except infidels who repent
Apostates infidels - grow violent - repentance not accepted
No 2nd chance for infidels
Piety only if one Spend what is loved.
The Jews unlawfully forbid certain meats ...
Infidels who invent falsehoods -Hell
Millat of Abraham - the original monotheism
The 1st Kaabah founded ...
The Kaabah of Plain memorial. Duty of Muslims who can go to pilgrimage. Allah is independent of all.
Allah not dependent on any creatures
Allah asked; why hinder the Muslims from way of Allah, when ye are witness? Allude to corruption of texts
v100. Muslims are warned against the friendship of Jews, &c. ...
How can Christians reject Allah revelations recited by Muhammad in their midst?
Muslims -do your duty, die as Muslims not infidels.
Muslim Brotherhood. All to Cable Allah, do not separate remember Allah reconcile enemies as brothers.
The Caliphate of Goodness, right conduct, forbid indecency.
Muslims not to be divided into Sects like infidels, after clear proofs given. Doom.
On J-Day, Infidels [blackened faces] doomed and believers [whitened] contrasted ...
Muslims whitened faces - gardens
Revelations of Allah
All things are Returned to Allah
False arrogance - Muslim best of community. Jews & Christians condemed.
Muslims safe from the enmity of inferior Jews and Christians ...
Infidels cursed for their evil deeds, disbelieve, slew prophets, rebellious, trangress, thus incurred anger and wretchedness
Certain believing Christians [monks] commended for their faith ...
Good Christians has qualities of 'good' Muslim.
Good Christians as 'Muslim' will be rewarded
Richness and children of infidels cannot avoid Allah, they will go to hell.
Analogy re Life of the World. Like the biting icy wind that destroyed their harvest as they have wronged themselves
v113 Cannot be intimate friends with infidels - yearn to ruin, hamper you, their hate speech, worst is hate in their hearts.
Muslims believe in all Scripture [genuine] & love Jews and Christians, though not the reverse. When in front of Muslims, J&C pretend to believe but condemn Muslims with rage at the back.
If Muslims are lucky they are envious, if back-luck, they rejoice. Muslims to persevere.
The Battle of Ohod alluded to ... Muslims set forth to battle as dawn.
Two parties nearly failed by Allah helped them.
Allah given victory at Badr even Muslims were weaker, so keep duty and feel confident
Allah support with 3000 angels enough?
If Muslims persevere and steadfast 5000 angels
Allah declare the above to give assurance. Victory is from Allah ..
when Allah cut off a flank of the enemies or overwhelm them to frustrate them.
No concern of Mo how Allah punish infidels
God is great - Forgiving
Usury forbidden ...
Muslims to ward off evil, infidels doomed in the Fire
Obey Allah and Obey Muhammad for mercy sake
Muslims to compete with each other to Paradise
Muslims who Spend at all times, control their anger, forgiving to others are Good Muslims
Muslims are to be quick in asking Allah Forgives but no 2nd time thereafter by the same sinner
Reward for Good Muslims -Garden
The doom of calumniators [slanderers] of the apostles ...
This Quran - declaration, guidance, admonition to who ward off evil
Motivation to Muslims
Consolation for Muslim if they suffer any blows from infidels.
Allah purify Muslim, destroy infidels
Muslims not to assume they will go to Paradise until Allah know they have perform their duty
Wish for death before they met it, now you have actually seen it
Muslims to fight on even if Muhammad is killed in battle.
No Muslims will die till his appointed time, therefore go to war.
The Muslims of old perseverance, did not lose courage, not weaken nor felt low.
They only ask forgiveness, make them steadfast, give victory over infidels.
Muslims of old rewarded, World and hereafter
Infidels to be avoided, they make you turn your back as losers
Allah -protector best helper
Allah will cast terror into hearts of infidels because of shirk. Fire
At Ohod some bowmen quit their post to seize the plunder. Allah made some Muslims flee from infidels as a Test. Forgiven
Some Muslims did not heed Muhammad's command. Allah made them grief as lesson not to feel bad if missed what is expected or face misfortune.
Allah generate self confidence to the worriers. Some have doubts and do not expect to be slained. It is Fated one will be die at appointed time regardless of staying at home or at the battlefield.
Those who turned back were seduced by Satan. Forgiven.
Do not be like the coward Muslims who said, the fighting Muslims would not have died if they stayed back. It is fated, Allah is powerful, give life and cause death.
If slain in Allah's way, Allah's forgiveness better than life in this world and all one can amass.
Muslims slain at Ohod to be gathered with all mankind, sorted then enter paradise ...
Muhammad to forgive hypocrite Muslims, due to lack of numbers therefore cannot kill them.
Trust Allah. IF Allah helps no one can counter it, if he don't there is no else to help on J-Day
Prophet cannot deceive mankind. If so, such deeds will be exposed on J-Day.
Muslims better than infidel condemned by Allah and destined to Hell
Muslims Ranked in Degrees on J-Day.
Allah sent Messenger of their own tribe and language
A disaster befell on the Muslims due to their flagrant error.
The defeat at Ohod planned by Allah to find out who are the True Believers
The hypocrites when asked to fight, replied, if we know how to fight, we would follow you. They lied, Allah knew, with such they were nearer to disbelief than faith.
Doubting Muslims claimed, the Muslims were guided by them, they would not have died. M retorted, avert death [mortality] if you can.
Martyred not Dead but are still living somewhere with provision from Allah.
The joy of the Ohod martyrs in paradise ...
Winners due to favor from Allah
Muslims who obey A&M after being wounded as right Muslims - will be rewarded greatly
Coward Muslims invoke fears in the Muslims but they trusted Allah to aid them thus increased their faith.
Allah help and no harm befell them. They are rewarded
Allah exhort Muslims to Fear him instead of the devil
Muhammad consoled when hypocrites of Medina run to disbelief. They are doomed.
The fate of Unbelievers ...
Infidels not think the temp relief given by Allah is good for them, but only for them to sin and then be doomed
Allah will not show the Unseen yet. Current state of Muslim not satisfactory but on J-Day infidel will be separate out and Muslims delivered to Paradise.
What man got is from Allah, so he should not hoard, else doomed
When Allah request contribution for war, the miser will be doomed ...
because of infidels evil deeds earlier
Infidels who disbelief despite Allah warning of the Fire - will be doomed. Why infidels kill their messengers even when they produced miracles?
Infidels deny their messengers [Muhammad and those of old] even when they produced miracles?
Every soul will taste death. Paid on J-Day for what is earned
Muslims tried in property and person.
Jews hide and corrupt the original message
Do not think infidels - rejoice assets, love to be praised for what they have not done will not be doomed. They will be Doomed!
Allah is great
Definition of 'Men of Understanding
1. Remember Allah …
2. Say - infidel -Fire
3. Crier …….
4. Forgive our sins ….
5. Give us .. Promised
6. Lord heard them …. Say
God's answer to the prayers of the pious ...
Infidel success if any is temporary comfort, later Hell
Muslim who keep Duty - Gardens
Certain believing Jews and Christians commended ...
v199. Exhortation to compete, outdo others, Patience and perseverance ...

Last edited by Continuum; 03-08-2016 at 03:00 AM..
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