U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-08-2016, 01:38 PM
 
4,899 posts, read 2,724,441 times
Reputation: 4398

Advertisements

Arab feminist defends writer accused of fueling Islamophobia with “sexual misery” Op-Ed – Women in the World in Association with The New York Times – WITW

I really enjoyed reading Fawzia Zouari's perspective and I'm curious what you all think about what she has to say.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-08-2016, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407
While I like seeing all perspectives, I can't really take a posistion here. I do not live in France and can not say I fully understand what is taking place.

It is quite difficult for a Muslim in one part of the world to comprehend the actions of a Muslim in another part of the world we all have our own individual customs, cultures and languages.

Now with that said I am glad to see Female Muslims anyplace state their views. However what I see both her and Daoud opposing is not Islam, but the national cultures of some Muslims. Nationalism which is forbidden in Islam is still practiced world wide by nearly all people including Muslims. I pretty much dislike much of what I see as Mideastern cultures, but I do not dislike Mideastern people.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2016, 03:16 PM
 
4,899 posts, read 2,724,441 times
Reputation: 4398
I like that she stands up for women's rights and for the hypocritical laws that govern some Islamic nations.

a few of my favorite quotes by her:

‘‘We have feminists who have become so unscrupulous they sometimes rush to defend the veil in the name of women’s rights and virginity in the name of cultural relativism,’’ she said.‘‘I think the West has not understood the meaning of such symbols and it is a kind of guilt that pushes it to make concessions on some of its liberties in the name of principle …”

“I am happy that feminists are finally waking up. But it is astonishing that they have waited for the warning cries from Muslims to do it.’’

This one is pretty powerful: ‘‘A hateful atmosphere of consensus and weakness reigns when it comes to the Muslim question,’’ she said. ‘‘There is a fringe of intellectuals who are self-proclaimed defenders of Muslims, whatever their wrongs. They are our lawyers, our spokespeople and we are under their protection. Just like in colonial times. We don’t speak for ourselves!”

Finally....

Muslim women were therefore right to ‘‘cry out’’ in the Arab world and elsewhere that the veil was an obligation they abhorred — without European academics and feminists always countering with a defense of the veil in the name of women’s freedom. ‘‘This is a way of denying us Muslim women the right to reclaim the rights that Western women enjoy, as if we didn’t deserve them. Isn’t this an insidious form of contempt towards our own people that doesn’t allow them to claim the same values of liberty and equality?’’ Zouari asked.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2016, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northeastah View Post
I like that she stands up for women's rights and for the hypocritical laws that govern some Islamic nations.

a few of my favorite quotes by her:

‘‘We have feminists who have become so unscrupulous they sometimes rush to defend the veil in the name of women’s rights and virginity in the name of cultural relativism,’’ she said.‘‘I think the West has not understood the meaning of such symbols and it is a kind of guilt that pushes it to make concessions on some of its liberties in the name of principle …”

“I am happy that feminists are finally waking up. But it is astonishing that they have waited for the warning cries from Muslims to do it.’’

This one is pretty powerful: ‘‘A hateful atmosphere of consensus and weakness reigns when it comes to the Muslim question,’’ she said. ‘‘There is a fringe of intellectuals who are self-proclaimed defenders of Muslims, whatever their wrongs. They are our lawyers, our spokespeople and we are under their protection. Just like in colonial times. We don’t speak for ourselves!”

Finally....

Muslim women were therefore right to ‘‘cry out’’ in the Arab world and elsewhere that the veil was an obligation they abhorred — without European academics and feminists always countering with a defense of the veil in the name of women’s freedom. ‘‘This is a way of denying us Muslim women the right to reclaim the rights that Western women enjoy, as if we didn’t deserve them. Isn’t this an insidious form of contempt towards our own people that doesn’t allow them to claim the same values of liberty and equality?’’ Zouari asked.
Out side a few Mideastern nations (Only a very small percentage of Muslims are Mideastern) Muslim women in general have comparable rights and benefits as men. While in Islam both men and women are to strive to achieve the highest level of education they can handle there is little incentive for Muslim woman to do so. A woman in Islam has no financial responsibilities no matter how high of an income she has the males in her family are responsible to provide for her expenses. Also a Man is forbidden to touch the wealth of a woman. (Yes, some steal the money their wife has). She is to use her income for her own desires but even then her Husband, Father Brothers etc are still the ones responsible if she desires not to pay them.- but in spite of that amany Muslim woman become active in local government or as religious scholars. There is nothing forbidding a woman from opening a Mosque and it seems to be gaining in popularity. I believe in China the number of female Imams now out number the Male Imams. There is no prohibition of a woman to be an Imam, however a Man is forbidden to pray "Behind a Woman" meaning he is not to be able to see any women while praying. that is really no big deal as most Muslims do not pray in a Mosque but where they happen to be at prayer time.

But world wide it seems Muslim women are quite active politically except in the Mideast.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2016, 06:07 PM
 
39,203 posts, read 10,880,280 times
Reputation: 5096
As an atheist, the bottom line for me is personal freedom. While I would defend to the death a woman's right to wear a Burka (subject to reasonable law like taking the thing off for an I/D card and of course removing it verify the I/D), I would also defend to the death her right NOT to wear it without getting hassle from the Haram police. The issue of what's permissible in public (back in 1980 I saw a woman in Bali walking along side the road wearing nothing but a basket of pineapples on her head) is debatable, but the principle of personal choice is not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2016, 07:13 PM
 
4,899 posts, read 2,724,441 times
Reputation: 4398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Out side a few Mideastern nations (Only a very small percentage of Muslims are Mideastern) Muslim women in general have comparable rights and benefits as men. While in Islam both men and women are to strive to achieve the highest level of education they can handle there is little incentive for Muslim woman to do so. A woman in Islam has no financial responsibilities no matter how high of an income she has the males in her family are responsible to provide for her expenses. Also a Man is forbidden to touch the wealth of a woman. (Yes, some steal the money their wife has). She is to use her income for her own desires but even then her Husband, Father Brothers etc are still the ones responsible if she desires not to pay them.- but in spite of that amany Muslim woman become active in local government or as religious scholars. There is nothing forbidding a woman from opening a Mosque and it seems to be gaining in popularity. I believe in China the number of female Imams now out number the Male Imams. There is no prohibition of a woman to be an Imam, however a Man is forbidden to pray "Behind a Woman" meaning he is not to be able to see any women while praying. that is really no big deal as most Muslims do not pray in a Mosque but where they happen to be at prayer time.

But world wide it seems Muslim women are quite active politically except in the Mideast.
Yea, I'm not so sure about that, Woodrow. How does Pakistan factor here, or Afghanistan or Iran in terms of women's rights? These are not middle eastern countries and I would challenge you on women being treated equally there or in places like SE Asia or the Caucuses for that matter.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-08-2016, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northeastah View Post
Yea, I'm not so sure about that, Woodrow. How does Pakistan factor here, or Afghanistan or Iran in terms of women's rights? These are not middle eastern countries and I would challenge you on women being treated equally there or in places like SE Asia or the Caucuses for that matter.
What chance do you think a Muslim women has of being elected to a position of responsibility in the UK, France, Germany, Denmark or the USA Tjhere are Muslim women that are born citizens of those nations and well educated. However being Muslim will prevent them from being appointed or elected to leadership roles. Although in the US Female Muslim Doctors are assuming some leadership posistions in the medical field

Pakistan is still a fairly new nation having only come into being in 1946. ( I was 6 years ols at the time) As a Nation it is younger than me. It has had several woman in power. Although Pakistan did deteriorate since Afghanistan and the Taliban were pushed out of Afghanistan and invaded Pakistan. but even still out side the SWAT region and the region around Islamabad Women are typically well educated, but many probably most after getting a MD degree or such migrate to the US.

Afghanistan has been in chaos since pre-Islamic days. So far Islam has not changed them nor have`, the Russian, The Chinese or anyone else been able to change the tribal traditions.

By SE Asia I assume you mean Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir and India. In India both Male and Female Muslims are highly discriminated against in all facets of life and have little chance of advancement. However the Muslim women do fare a little better than the Men in India and have better opportunities for jobs. Although India is only 15% Muslim (It was 30% before repartition and about half the Muslim population became Pakistani and East Pakistani (East Pakistan became Bangladesh). Both Muslim men and women are excluded from responsible leadership roles in India

Bangladesh has very few opportunities for both men and women. I am impressed of what they do with the little they have

As for Bangladesh I place the Status of woman in the work force and Government as very comparable to what it was during the first half of my life 1940-1978 and it seems to be improving
I predict Bangladesh will have a Female President before the US does.

While men in Bangladesh hold the majority of powerful positions in politics and society generally, some women have been able to break into the power structure. To celebrate their achievements, as well as to inspire women seeking roles in the future, the Bangladesh Alliance for Women Leadership (BDAWL) has released Who's Who: Women Leaders at a Glance, the first such reference book ever released in Bangladesh.

The directory contains biographies of 134 women who are playing key roles in Bangladesh in politics, the judiciary, academia, civil service, business, law enforcement and the media. The guide also contains information on women voters, candidates and parliamentarians; a complete list of women MPs in the 9th parliament and women elected to local government; and a gender analysis of the past three elections. It is available for purchase through BDAWL's website.
https://www.ndi.org/Whos_Who_of_Wome...ers_Bangladesh

Kashmir is not until self rule, the Country is administrated by Pakistan, India and China. A citizen of Kashmir male or female has no opportunity for a leadership role.
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2016, 07:06 AM
 
4,899 posts, read 2,724,441 times
Reputation: 4398
Muslim Views on Women in Society | Pew Research Center

this research is almost 3 years old so some things could have changed. Doubtful however it would swing the majority.

It's nice that most Islamic nations think women should be able to decide if she wears a veil or not, but shameful that such a large % in most countries feel a woman should obey her husband no matter what.

Interesting too is the % of Muslims polled that favor sharia law. Turkey, a supposed "secular" nation favors sharia by 84%! Thailand 91%! I wonder if those surveyed understand the implication of sharia law.

So while women in leadership / government roles are a positive step, overall treatment and mentality of a woman's worth is a huge work in progress. Huge.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2016, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,297,298 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northeastah View Post
Muslim Views on Women in Society | Pew Research Center

this research is almost 3 years old so some things could have changed. Doubtful however it would swing the majority.

It's nice that most Islamic nations think women should be able to decide if she wears a veil or not, but shameful that such a large % in most countries feel a woman should obey her husband no matter what.

Interesting too is the % of Muslims polled that favor sharia law. Turkey, a supposed "secular" nation favors sharia by 84%! Thailand 91%! I wonder if those surveyed understand the implication of sharia law.

So while women in leadership / government roles are a positive step, overall treatment and mentality of a woman's worth is a huge work in progress. Huge.
Actual Shariah is nothing like what you find in Saudi or Iran. In fact no Islamic Nation uses shariah law except for civil law. Shariah has or should not have any effect on non-Muslims. We are actually forbidden to force Shariah upon non-Muslims. Saudi uses a modified form of the Hanbali Madhab that is altered with Wahabbi and quite a bit of the al-Saud Family Monarchy. Iran uses the Jafa'ari madhab which is not recognized as Shariah by about 90$ of the world's Muslims. The biggest problems are the radical terrorist groups like ISIS that are calling Wahabbi law Shariah.

Here in the US most states do recognize the Shariah civil laws at least thost that most of us wanted, such as non-interest banking and loans. The Shariah banks are even popular with non-Muslims who like the concept of no interest mortgages and every penny paid in goes for the principal and in the event of default you get back what you paid in when the bank resells the property.

Other areas too Such as the inheritance laws and marriage contracts. A Shariah compliant Marriage contract (Nikkah) in addition to the clauses the bride and groom desire to have in it are also required to have: What type house the groom will buy for the wife, How much of an income for household expenses will he provide the Bride with. (One reason the woman only gets 1/3 the male inheritance as the woman typically owns the majority of the husbands property and receives the full dower before the inheritance is calculated. Shariah is very complex and has to be in accordance with the madhab the participants agree upon. Among Sunni there are 4 different Madhabs a person can use any one but just one as the Shariah they desire to follow. In terms of agreements between Muslims they must first agree with which Madhab they will comply with. For example my wife and myself wrote our Nikkah (Marriage Contract) in accordance with the Hanafi Madhab.

Another aspect of Sharia the man can not touch the wife's wealth and is responsible for all household expenses no matter how high an income the wife has.

In the states that do not recognize Sharia we simply write up the contracts as standard business contracts and file them in the courts like any other business contract. Our biggest argument is that in some states that forbid all Sharia laws we can not use a Muslim tribunal to arbitrate disputes between consenting adult Muslims, but The Jews are permitted to use Judaic courts.

To understand Shariah one must first know what is being called Shariah. Somethings that are called Shariah

Hanafi
Hanbali
Maliki
Shafi'i
Ismaili
Jabfa'ari
Wahabbi
Laws of the al-Saud family Monarchy
__________________
When posting as a MOD my posts will be in red

No advertising, no copyrighted material, no personal attacks


MODERATOR OF: Buddhism: Judaism: Paganism:

When in doubt read the TOS MOD LIST FAQ's
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-09-2016, 10:47 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,041,478 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Shariah has or should not have any effect on non-Muslims. We are actually forbidden to force Shariah upon non-Muslims.
Spot on!

It is vital that the non-muslims are aware of this fact. Shariah law is for Muslims only and cannot be forced on non-muslims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top