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Old 03-19-2016, 01:03 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Your link is not from an Islamic source and the author is making the same errors many non-Muslims make about abrogation in the Qur'an. to learn what it means you need to look at an Islamic source.

Abrogation actually has more to do with The Madhabs os of Shariah than with the Qur'an. Just using the Hanafi concept of abrogation we have:
Something is VERY wrong with this issue of 'abrogation' because

-a God which is all powerful and created the Universe and all things in it
-would deliver a text that is constructed in such a mess with all sort of issues, e.g. contradictions, abrogation, evil laden elements, violence, and all sort of negative element.

The above issues are clear evidences the Quran was not delivered by an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-present God but rather it was written by a man or group of people who are fallible and thus most likely to write such a messy book.

 
Old 03-19-2016, 07:22 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Something is VERY wrong with this issue of 'abrogation' because

-a God which is all powerful and created the Universe and all things in it
-would deliver a text that is constructed in such a mess with all sort of issues, e.g. contradictions, abrogation, evil laden elements, violence, and all sort of negative element.

The above issues are clear evidences the Quran was not delivered by an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-present God but rather it was written by a man or group of people who are fallible and thus most likely to write such a messy book.
Indeed this is true and that god would also not make glaring 'scientific' mistakes, such as where sperm comes from.

The contradictions in the Quran had to be explained somehow, and the writer(s) decided on abrogation. This worked well because as Islam's power grew, Muslims were able to become more and more aggressive.

This is an interesting article:
The Problem of Abrogation in the Quran
 
Old 03-19-2016, 08:30 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I referred to abrogation in the Quran, not the hadiths. And that is not what the Quran says.

2:106 We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

16:101 And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know.

"Classical scholars argued that anyone who studied the Qur'an without having mastered the doctrine of abrogation would be "deficient."[15] Those who do not accept abrogation fall outside the mainstream and, perhaps, even the religion itself".
Funny how none of these "classical scholars" had mastered the doctrine of abrogation when none knew the number of verses that were abrogated. The fools couldn't understand some verses of the Qur'an so it was an easy way out for them to claim such verses were abrogated. No erse of the Qur'an has been forgotten (2:106). Therefore, 2:106 can be reference only to the previous revelations before the Qur'an.

No verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated. The reference to abrogation is reference to previous revelations before the Qur'an. It is one revelation after the other, either similar or better; not completely different and opposite as if God had changed His mind. Ayat in the Qur'an does not mean only verses but the revelations as well. This is why many are translating the word ayat as communications or messages.

Every verse in the Qur'an still applies and none has been abrogated.
 
Old 03-19-2016, 09:01 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Funny how none of these "classical scholars" had mastered the doctrine of abrogation when none knew the number of verses that were abrogated. The fools couldn't understand some verses of the Qur'an so it was an easy way out for them to claim such verses were abrogated. No erse of the Qur'an has been forgotten (2:106). Therefore, 2:106 can be reference only to the previous revelations before the Qur'an.

No verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated. The reference to abrogation is reference to previous revelations before the Qur'an. It is one revelation after the other, either similar or better; not completely different and opposite as if God had changed His mind. Ayat in the Qur'an does not mean only verses but the revelations as well. This is why many are translating the word ayat as communications or messages.

Every verse in the Qur'an still applies and none has been abrogated.
The Quran itself says otherwise:

2:106 We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it.

16:101 And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know.

This is funny because it proves that Muhammed was being caught contradicting himself!

I can't help that some Muslim scholars are confused. I would be also if I had to figure out the mess that is in the Quran. And I assume they spoke Arabic!!

So, when Muhammed gained power and had an army it was better to slaughter people. When he had no power then slaughtering was not something he could pull off.

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)
 
Old 03-19-2016, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The Quran itself says otherwise:

2:106 We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it.

16:101 And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know.

This is funny because it proves that Muhammed was being caught contradicting himself!

I can't help that some Muslim scholars are confused. I would be also if I had to figure out the mess that is in the Quran. And I assume they spoke Arabic!!

So, when Muhammed gained power and had an army it was better to slaughter people. When he had no power then slaughtering was not something he could pull off.

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)
What has been abrogated were the Torah, Psalms and the Gospel of Jesus(a.s.) as times had changed and som were no longer applicable. The Qur'an is the updated and abrogated version of them. anything in them that does not conflict with the Qur'an are still to be followed.. They no longer appear in the Qur'an. What you read in the Qur'an is still applicable. There is no verse in the Qur'an that has been deleted.

A couple verses have had more information added to them, such as the verses relating to the prohibition of alcohol. That was revealed in increments. First came the prohibition of intoxication. Next was the prohibition of excessive drinking of alcoholic beverages and finally the prohibition of all intoxicants in any quantity. The earlier revelations were not removed and are still applicable. We still are not permitted to get drunk, that revelation was not removed, we still are not permitted to drink wine that revelation is still applicable.
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Old 03-19-2016, 11:51 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zamzam66 View Post

2. ISIS forces people to convert to Islam or die.
Yes, Muhammed did the same:

Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)

When the apostle raided a people he waited until the morning. If he heard a call to prayer he held back; if he did not hear it he attacked. We came to Khaybar by night, and the apostle passed the night there; and when morning came he did not hear the call to prayer, so he rode and we rode with him. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 757)

The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: If you come to a township (which has surrendered without a formal war) and stay therein, you have a share (that will be in the form of an award) in (the properties obtained from) it. If a township disobeys Allah and His Messenger (and actually fights against the Muslims) one-fifth of the booty seized therefrom is for Allah and His Apostle and the rest is for you. (Sahih Muslim 4346)

"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)
"There is no compulsion in religion" ( 2:256) Qur'aan

Again you bring up an early, abrogated verse. (Let's not forget that earlier you also misquoted a verse from the Quran to completely change its meaning.) Sura 9 was one of the last two Surahs revealed, and therefore abrogates any Qur'anic teachings that conflict with it.

Qur’an 9:29—"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran 9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the infidels wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and pay tribute tax, let them [go] on their way.

5:51 O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

9:73 O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them. And their refuge is Hell, and wretched is the destination.

Allah sure was not tolerant. In the Quran we have verse after verse of Allah threatening disbelievers/unbelievers/infidels/etc with everlasting horrible torture like this:

Qur’an 22:19-22 “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

If you were right and Allah is demanding tolerance for unbelievers .... he is the biggest hypocrite ever!!

I have been talking to first time readers of the Quran and they are absolutely sickened by the hate and incitement to terrorism. They knew it would be bad, but never imagined it would be THIS bad.
 
Old 03-19-2016, 12:02 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
What has been abrogated were the Torah, Psalms and the Gospel of Jesus(a.s.) as times had changed and som were no longer applicable. The Qur'an is the updated and abrogated version of them. anything in them that does not conflict with the Qur'an are still to be followed.. They no longer appear in the Qur'an. What you read in the Qur'an is still applicable. There is no verse in the Qur'an that has been deleted.

A couple verses have had more information added to them, such as the verses relating to the prohibition of alcohol. That was revealed in increments. First came the prohibition of intoxication. Next was the prohibition of excessive drinking of alcoholic beverages and finally the prohibition of all intoxicants in any quantity. The earlier revelations were not removed and are still applicable. We still are not permitted to get drunk, that revelation was not removed, we still are not permitted to drink wine that revelation is still applicable.
Nope, not buying it. You have given me so much misinformation that you are now like a VERY weak hadith.

One example that proves you wrong is the verses about drinking wine.

And, you can see the contradictions in the 'tolerant' verse and the 'slaughter them' verses right in front of your eyes.

As Continuum said, the Quran is a mess. Abrogation was a way to try to excuse the contradiction messes.

What I said in my previous post is true:
If you were right and Allah is demanding tolerance for unbelievers .... he is the biggest hypocrite ever!!

Contradictions do not exist. You can't think tolerance is good while demanding intolerance.

Good try, though.
 
Old 03-19-2016, 02:18 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The Quran itself says otherwise:

2:106 We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it [/b]or similar to it.
No verse of the Qur'an had ever been forgotten and abrogated. It refers to the previous revelations that have been forgotten.

Quote:
16:101 And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know that Allah knows
what He is sending down.

This is funny because it proves that Muhammed was being caught contradicting himself!
All it proves is that some kuffar thought he was inventing it rather than he was contradicting himself. The Qur'an says that the kuffar did not know; were ignorant. If you use the Qur'an as your proof then you must accept the same Qur'anic proof that those kuffar did not know (were ignorant).

Quote:
I can't help that some Muslim scholars are confused. I would be also if I had to figure out the mess that is in the Quran. And I assume they spoke Arabic!!
That's why you can't understand the Qur'an, it is in Arabic.

Quote:
So, when Muhammed gained power and had an army it was better to slaughter people. When he had no power then slaughtering was not something he could pull off.
If the kuffar had not started slaughtering Muslims first, Muslims would not have slaughtered those kuffar.

Quote:
Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)
I don't read the hadith books as there is a lot of nonsense written in them. These books are not from Allah. For me, the Qur'an from Allah is enough for my Islam.
 
Old 03-19-2016, 02:32 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Nope, not buying it. You have given me so much misinformation that you are now like a VERY weak hadith.

One example that proves you wrong is the verses about drinking wine.

And, you can see the contradictions in the 'tolerant' verse and the 'slaughter them' verses right in front of your eyes.

As Continuum said, the Quran is a mess. Abrogation was a way to try to excuse the contradiction messes.

What I said in my previous post is true:
If you were right and Allah is demanding tolerance for unbelievers .... he is the biggest hypocrite ever!!
Not at all!

Allah has made it clear in the Qur'an a to which unbelievers are to be fought and killed, and which unbelievers are to be respected and treated with kindness. The mess is in the brains of those who do not understand the difference stated in the Qur'an.
 
Old 03-19-2016, 04:03 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,279 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No verse of the Qur'an had ever been forgotten and abrogated. It refers to the previous revelations that have been forgotten.

All it proves is that some kuffar thought he was inventing it rather than he was contradicting himself. The Qur'an says that the kuffar did not know; were ignorant. If you use the Qur'an as your proof then you must accept the same Qur'anic proof that those kuffar did not know (were ignorant).

That's why you can't understand the Qur'an, it is in Arabic.

If the kuffar had not started slaughtering Muslims first, Muslims would not have slaughtered those kuffar.

I don't read the hadith books as there is a lot of nonsense written in them. These books are not from Allah. For me, the Qur'an from Allah is enough for my Islam.
This is horrifying! Allah (you believe) wrote a book that Arabic speaking Muslim scholars cannot understand, let alone the rest of us. We are too stupid/ignorant...why? Because not only did allah write a mess that no one can make heads or tails about, according to you, but he also made us stupid/ignorant and unable to understand his dratted book. Then, to make it a billion times worse, Allah intends to do horrible torture to the BILLIONS of people he made unable to understand his dratted book. And I mean horrible torture!! Hannibal Lecter could take lessons!!

And are you claiming that Arabic is not translatable? Is that true for all Arabic or just the Quran and classic arabic? What percent of Muslims speak classic Arabic? How can Allah expect people to convert when they have no way of understanding his silly book??
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