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Old 03-23-2016, 08:07 PM
 
23 posts, read 10,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Most of those are examples of how ISIS IS ISLAM. They are following the example of Muhammad to a tee.
Did you bother read the article? If you did the hadiths clearly say not to do what is mentioned so they contradict islam.

Does israeli bombing 10,000 babies represent judaism? Point closed.

 
Old 03-29-2016, 07:10 AM
 
4,022 posts, read 1,850,529 times
Reputation: 3950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Sadly there are no actual biographies of Muhammad(saws) What many people base their studies of him upon are middle age biographies written by non-Muslims at the time of the Crusades or Ishaq/Hisham "Sirat Rasul Allah" or or the "Reliance of the Traveller" written by Shihabuddin Abu al-'Abbas Ahmad ibn an-Naqib al-Misr in the 14th Century AD although it is accepted as fact by the Shafi'i madhab it like the others has no verifiable material that can be traced back to the time of Muhammad(saws)

Much of what is portrayed as modern biographies are written by non-Muslims and seem to be based upon 10th- 15th Century Christian biographies and/or Voltaire's play "Le Fanatisme ou Mahomet le prophète, Tragédie en cinq actes 1742 "

The most reliable source is a study of the eye witness accounts by his contemporaries. (The Ahadith) however care must be taken in studying Hadith and even there one must know the Isand, Authenticity and reliability of each Hadith in order to Form an opinion.

With that said I have read several Biographies of Muhammad(saws) During my 65 years as a non Muslim and during my now 11 years (more accuratly 10 years +some odd months" as a Muslim
From a historical point we really only know the effects of his life.

Yes I have read Biographies, quite a few, both favorable towards Muhammad(saws) and derogatory. I have also been engaged in studying the Ahadith for several years now.

The end result is I feel that Islam is the most logical religion for a Theist to follow. It is based fully upon a personal relationship with God(swt) with no need for clergy nor preacher led religious studies.
One becomes Muslim simply because they believe there is only one God(swt) and only He is to be worshipped. Islam is not the name of a religion, it is the action of submitting one's life to God(swt) and a person who performs Islam is a Muslim.

ISIS is not performing Islam, they are following a Human leader and an ideology of conquest. They have no concept of what submitting to God(swt) entails.

Fair enough. A few of questions for you then.

Do you dispute the notion that he did went from Mecca to Medina?
Did his teachings not change greatly in tone at that point?

Do you regard the Sunnah to be a valid resource?

It is my understanding that the two most commonly accepted Hadith throughout all of Islam are Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. Is my understanding incorrect?
 
Old 03-29-2016, 07:16 AM
 
4,022 posts, read 1,850,529 times
Reputation: 3950
Quote:
Originally Posted by zamzam66 View Post
have you seen what israel is doing to gaza for 25 years and the rest of palestine?

There is two sides to the coin.
While it is certainly true that Israel is not free of any guilt in this conflict, let's also not forget that Muslims live in Israel peaceably. Not only do they live there, they are allowed full participation in the government.

Currently there are at least 5 Muslims on the Israeli Knesset (similar to our congress [ie. the legislative branch]).

There is even a Muslim Woman serving.

Any Israelis living peaceably in Palestine?
Or any other Muslim nation for that matter?
 
Old 03-29-2016, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadgates View Post
Fair enough. A few of questions for you then.

Do you dispute the notion that he did went from Mecca to Medina?
Did his teachings not change greatly in tone at that point?

Do you regard the Sunnah to be a valid resource?

It is my understanding that the two most commonly accepted Hadith throughout all of Islam are Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. Is my understanding incorrect?
I accept that Muhammad(saws) did go from Mecca to Medinah but do not accept that his message changed. The same Surah were still being recited. How ever the newer revelations that came in Medinah were specifically for those that were Muslim.

A unique feature of the Qur'an is it contains 3 distinct types of Messages each saying basically the same things but worded for specific audiences.

One group of Surat are very specifically directed to those who had not heard of Islam. The second group is directed to those who have heard of Islam but refuse to perform Islam and the third group is for people that are Muslim and do perform Islam, These are primarily the Surat revealed in Medina. But they do not override or replace the Meccan Surat.

As to sunnah it all depends upon what one uses as a source of Sunnah. There are no specific writings of Sunnnah or wasn't until the 1940s when the "Fiqh ul-Sunnah" was written. For the remainder many relied upon tradition.


For most of us we find Sunnah through the Madhabs.

While Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are the most reliable Ahadith in the opinion of most Sunni. The Shi'ite and others are not in much agreement for example the Shi'ite tend to regard any Ahadith relating to Aisha as fraudulent. There are also many Muslims that are Hadith rejectors.
+
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Old 03-30-2016, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I accept that Muhammad(saws) did go from Mecca to Medinah but do not accept that his message changed. The same Surah were still being recited. How ever the newer revelations that came in Medinah were specifically for those that were Muslim.

A unique feature of the Qur'an is it contains 3 distinct types of Messages each saying basically the same things but worded for specific audiences.
While you may know the contents of the Quran I believe you are either ignorant of the 'essence' and 'ethos' of the Quran or you are in denial of them.

When the Quran is read Chronologically to the best estimates:
The message in the Mecca phase is more on eschatological and soteriological matter has not change nor they were not overridden. These are the religious element which is fundamental to Islam as a religion proper. In fact these verses were addressed to the Muslims to support their performance of Islam as Muslims on a religious basis.

However in the Medina phase the 'tone' has definitely changes and the message of the Quran is dressed up with a more aggressive, greater sense of hate towards the non-Muslims and developed a very strong martial ethos. This is due to a change in the psychological states of Muhammad from mild to a very angry and aggressive person after he was rejected by his own people, relatives, the Jews, the Christians and others.
Social rejection have terrible consequences on an individual as many psychological research has shown, e.g.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki
The experience of rejection can lead to a number of adverse psychological consequences such as loneliness, low self-esteem, aggression, and depression.[4] It can also lead to feelings of insecurity and a heightened sensitivity to future rejection.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_rejection
While the Mecca phase in the Quran has it share of evil laden elements against idolaters, Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims, the Medina phase has added boosters [aided by the social rejection] of evil and violent elements on fighting and wars on the infidels.

Yes, there is a change of 'tone' from the Mecca phase to the Medina phase in the Quranic verses from the tone of milder evils to the most evil elements.

It is these unavoidable and unremovable most evil elements in the Quran that trigger SOME Muslims who are born with evil tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims [even other Muslims] around the world.
 
Old 03-30-2016, 06:34 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
While you may know the contents of the Quran I believe you are either ignorant of the 'essence' and 'ethos' of the Quran or you are in denial of them.

When the Quran is read Chronologically to the best estimates:
The message in the Mecca phase is more on eschatological and soteriological matter has not change nor they were not overridden. These are the religious element which is fundamental to Islam as a religion proper. In fact these verses were addressed to the Muslims to support their performance of Islam as Muslims on a religious basis.

However in the Medina phase the 'tone' has definitely changes and the message of the Quran is dressed up with a more aggressive, greater sense of hate towards the non-Muslims and developed a very strong martial ethos. This is due to a change in the psychological states of Muhammad from mild to a very angry and aggressive person after he was rejected by his own people, relatives, the Jews, the Christians and others.
Social rejection have terrible consequences on an individual as many psychological research has shown, e.g.



While the Mecca phase in the Quran has it share of evil laden elements against idolaters, Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims, the Medina phase has added boosters [aided by the social rejection] of evil and violent elements on fighting and wars on the infidels.

Yes, there is a change of 'tone' from the Mecca phase to the Medina phase in the Quranic verses from the tone of milder evils to the most evil elements.

It is these unavoidable and unremovable most evil elements in the Quran that trigger SOME Muslims who are born with evil tendencies to commit terrible evils and violence on non-Muslims [even other Muslims] around the world.
There may be some assumptions you have such as these:

1. There is a preferred order in which the Qur'an is to be read.

2. That we usually read and recite it in a specific order

3. That the Qur'an is taught from in Written order.

Teaching of the Qur'an is the learning of the Arabic and the proper Tajweed (Pronunciation) A typical course in Qur'an lasts roughly 3 years. During that time there usually is no translation or commentary being learned. Invariably teachers Begin their Students with Juz 30 Which consists of Surat 78-114 There are many reasons that is taught first. It has the largest vocabulary and contains approximently 85% of the Vocabulary words used in the Qur'an. Once one learns the proper pronunciation of all the words in Juz 30 the remainder of the Qur'an Becomes easier. While there is no specific order in which the remainder is to be taught Most teachers will teach Juz 16-30 before There were several Qur'anic Teachers in Austin I took a course through one and then sat in on classes with 2 of my Grandchildren. All to no avail. My hearing is too poor and I can not get the pronunciation correct. But I still periodically enroll in online classes and Begin all over with Juz Amma (Juz 30)

Nearly always Juz 1-Juz 3 will be the last 3 read and studied. and studied. The only actual protocal established in reading the Qur'an is that no matter what we plan to read we should always recite Surah al-Fatiah when we first open the Qur'an for any reason There is no specific order we are to read the Qur'an in except when we read it should always be consecutive ayyat a minimum of 9 unless we are reading a Shorter Surah in which case we are to read the full Surah.

The numbering of each Chapter is of little concern as very few Muslims read them in Numerical order.

You may want to read this to learn the order in which many Read the Qur'an. This is a basic study guide and what I have found to be followed by the Qur'an teachers I have studied under. In Person and in online classes

How Should We Read the Qur'an?

make a long story short. The Chronological order is not important as most of us do not read the Qur'an in text order of 1-114 and that is not the order in which the Qur'an is taught.

You might find this interesting from the Link above:

Quote:
Where do I start?

There are various approaches to reading and reciting the Qur'an, depending on the methodology employed by the teacher. For example, if the aim is to learn the Arabic recitation, the reader is generally directed to start with the final juz, as the chapters and verses in the final juz are relatively short and easy to recite.

If the intention of the reader is to grow spiritually, and to use the wisdom contained in the Qur'an as the tool and means to enable such growth, it is best to read the Qur'an in the sequence it was revealed. This requires some extra effort on the part of the reader to discover the exact sequence of revelation, however there are many online resources which provide this information. If the reader is unable to obtain such information, or if the information is incomplete or unsatisfactory, then the reader can instead start with any of the Makki chapters (any good translation of the Qur'an will clearly indicate whether the verse originated in Mecca or Madinah). It is highly recommended that the beginner avoids reading the Madinati chapters unless he has a firm grasp of the messages contained in the Makki chapters.
But over all if you investigate how individual Muslims that have the opportunity to study under a Teacher learn the Qur'an you may see why the chronological order is not very important and one is not likely to arrive at the erroneous conclusion that some verses condone, Justify or command violence.

Although generally not found in any language except Arabic one can find Qur'ans in Chronological order. Or bound in seperate Juze and even as 114 seperate books with each Surah bound individually.

In My personal Library I have The Single Standard Voulume. I Also have a Seven Volume Stundents set with large pring and all prununciation marks show. In addition I have all 30 Juz bound seperatly and a 30 CD set with Each Juz. I use the Ghamdi recitation as I have severe hearing problems and Ghamdi is one of the few reciters I can hear. The tone of most peoples voices are out of my hearing range. (Including my wife--I can not hear her voice)

Summation of above: The Order in which the Surat are bound in book form is of no importance as that is not the preferred order of learning the Qur'an
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Old 03-30-2016, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,580,662 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There may be some assumptions you have such as these:

1. There is a preferred order in which the Qur'an is to be read.
2. That we usually read and recite it in a specific order
3. That the Qur'an is taught from in Written order.

During that time there usually is no translation or commentary being learned. Invariably teachers Begin their Students with Juz 30 Which consists of Surat 78-114

How Should We Read the Qur'an?

make a long story short. The Chronological order is not important as most of us do not read the Qur'an in text order of 1-114 and that is not the order in which the Qur'an is taught.

You might find this interesting from the Link above:

Summation of above: The Order in which the Surat are bound in book form is of no importance as that is not the preferred order of learning the Qur'an
I had presumed the Quran is taught from Sura 1 to 114 in sequential order.
I would like to confirm what you informed is the standard approach, i.e. 1, 78-114, 16-30 ... 2 & 3 for all Muslims, sects, Madhabs, etc. I will research to find out??

Perhaps the Quran is taught for recitation purposes [to be familiar with Arabic] in the above order but when a Muslims is familiar with the Arabic, then they will read it from Chapter 1 to 114 if they are reading the Quran generally.

What about those Muslims who do not read it in Arabic?
Do they read the Quran is the order you mentioned, 1, 78-114, 16-30 ... 2 & 3?

My point is for wisdom and reality sake, it is imperative one read the Quran in chronological order.
It is only in Chronological order that one can get a realistic, systematic and holistic picture of the whole thing.
Once a person get a holistic picture of the Quran and Islam, then one can rearrange the chapter in various orders for various purposes.

Why a realistic, systematic and holistic picture?
In reality everything follow in a systematic order in general, i.e. note the rain cycle, our digestion system and food intake is taken in a systematic order [one do not eat from the anus].
All good and effective communication are presented in a systematic and sequitur order. When writing any thing, one chapter and paragraph must follow from the previous one and aligned to the main topic.
Btw, are you familiar with deductive logic?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning

The Chapters [1-114] of the Quran unfortunately are not organized in any systematic order in accordance to any main heading. It is really messy.

This is why it is imperative we get the Chapters of the Quran back into chronological order [the best we can] which is at least a real order, i.e. in the sequence they were recited within the chronological life of Muhammad from 610 to 632AD
This is the best approach to get a realistic grounding of the Quran to start with.

From this chronological order, one will be able to infer various deductions, e.g.

1. the Mecca and Medina phase
2. the psychological profile of Muhammad in chronological order [if one is studying his autobiography]
3. the historical elements
4. the religious and spiritual progression, chronologically
5. the introduction of Jewish and Christian materials in the early stages
6. many other orders and perspectives.

Then one can compare the above orders to the conventional arrangement of 1-114.

In addition, one can rearrange the chapters whatever one thinks fit for various purposes.

These days with easy computer programs [spreadsheet and database], e.g. Excel, one can easily sort and rearrange the chapters of the Quran in any order.

Initially I read the Quran in the conventional order from 1-Al-Fatiha to 114-Al-Nas which do not make much sense except facing a blast of excessive aggressions and evil intentions against non-Muslims.
When I [non-Muslim] read the Quran is chronological order, one can get a sense of the focus on the eschatological elements in the beginning and ending with a blast of great anger against the non-Muslims. This is an objective and real view of what the Quran represent.

Obviously a Muslim believer will have a different sense, i.e. a positive bias approach because s/he MUST be bias, otherwise his faith will not work nor develops.

Now to understand the effective root causes of why SOME [not all] Muslims who are evil prone commit terrible evils and violence when influenced by evil laden verses in the Quran, it is critical we read the Quran in its chronological order.
 
Old 03-31-2016, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
There are several recent innovations in the study of Islam by Muslims. The most notable being some acceptance of the use of translations.

Generally speaking the primary view I find is a Muslim is not required to read the Qur'an, but if the do read it, it should be read in Arabic even if they do not understand Arabic. It is far better to read it in Arabic without understanding than to read it with understanding in another language. A Muslim does not consider any translation to be a Qur'an and a person has not read the Qur'an until they can read it out-loud with proper pronunciation.

Until a person becomes proficient in Arabic their primary sources for learning Islam will be through the local Muslim community. When one does decide they are ready to study the Qur'an it is highly urged they do so through a recognized teacher. Roughly the first 3 years of study will be in learning through rote memory of the Arabic with proper pronunciation. Tafsir (Commentary) comes much later.It is very much discouraged for any Islamic teacher to give any interpretation or commentary of the Qur'an. The student has to find their own resources once they have learned the proper pronunciation of every word in the Qur'an. (Only the Arabic being considered to be a Qur'an)

Now once a Muslim has finally read the Qur'an for the first time the Next step will be a Study of the Vocabulary used in the Qur'an. this is relatively easy as the Qur'an has a very small vocabulary. I learned Arabic basically through full immersion. Learning the vocabulary is best learned in that manner, but a suitable alternative in my opinion, is to learn the definitions of each words rather than a translation/

Once a person has developed a Quranic Arabic vocabulary they can begin their own interpretation of each Surah. But even then it is highly recommended they study the Tafsir of past scholars, especially those with differing opinions. The study of Islam becomes a very long road for most Muslims. Few if any with ever complete a full study of the Qur'an in their life time.

Your scenario of Muslims constantly be exposed to the "violent verses" does not seem to be the norm and even among those who spend their life studying the Qur'an will never find any verses intrepted as condoning of promoting violence.

If I had my way, (which fortunatly I don't) I would make it illegal to translate the Qur'an into any language. Not even into MSA (Modern Standard Arabic). Simply because all translations lead to misinterpretations and a loss of an understanding of the Qur'an

If a person understands any verses as condoning or commanding violence, they do not understand those verses.

to understand the Qur'an as a Muslims understands it a non-Muslim should probably take a course in Qur'anic studies in an Islamic University.

If one can not do such an alternative is to study the Tafsir of past and contemporary Islamic scholars. You may find these links helpful I divided them into 2 groups the first being lengthy but very good introductions to tafsir

Group 1

The Best Tafsir (Interpretation) of the Qur'an | Qur

Al Tafsir.com - Tafseer Holy Quran from all Tafseer Schools, Quran Translations, Quran Recitations, Quran Interpretation (Tafseer), Quran Sciences, and Love In Quran

Tafsir al-Qur'an: Definition, Function and Development | Dr Steven Masood

The second group are what I personally feel are the best contemporary Tafsir

https://www.kalamullah.com/shade-of-the-quran.html

The Qur'an and Qur'anic Interpretation (tafsir) (Not a tafsir, but a source of considerable material, including several contemporary Tafsir

Download Quran Tafsir by Brother Nouman Ali Khan - Nouman Ali Khan Collection (possibly the best contemporary tafsie, but so far only Juz 30 is available)

For an idea as to how the Qur'an is taught and usually read here are the class outlines of an online Qur'an school

Lesson 1 - Quran Teacher Online and FREE (This is the first 10 lessons in the course, the first 9 are learning the proper pronunciation of each letter and lesson 10 is Juz 30)

How Should We Read the Qur'an? (This is not exactly an online school, but it gives the preferred order in which the Qur'an should be read and learned.

The preferred method of reading the Qur'an is to read the Meccan Surat before reading the Meadina ones. Juz 30 being the first to be read and learned and Jus 1,2 and 3 to come last. The Qur'an is not indended to be read in the order of Surah 1 to 114. The order of the Surah is primarily for ease of memorization, not for Qur'anic studies.
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Old 03-31-2016, 02:15 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
There are several recent innovations in the study of Islam by Muslims. The most notable being some acceptance of the use of translations.
This is a very narrow view.
Translations should be encouraged but a caution could be included to warn that translations are limited. Those who read the translated versions should be encouraged to read other translations as a comparison. Note I have accessed to 46 English translations.

Quote:
Generally speaking the primary view I find is a Muslim is not required to read the Qur'an, but if the do read it, it should be read in Arabic even if they do not understand Arabic. It is far better to read it in Arabic without understanding than to read it with understanding in another language. A Muslim does not consider any translation to be a Qur'an and a person has not read the Qur'an until they can read it out-loud with proper pronunciation.
I think this is the worse advice to be given to a Muslim.
As implied in the Quran, Allah expect all Muslims to read the Quran.
Therefore if they cannot read it in Arabic, they should read the translation version with a caution of the limitations of translations.
All Muslims must strive to understand the Quran and Allah's words.

What is critical is understanding the principles and contexts in the Quran and pronunciation is not critical.

Even if one read the Quran in Arabic with correct pronunciation, there is the very likelihood they did not understand the meaning and the context.

Note the case of 49:14 where I the word 'Aslama' i.e. submitted is understood by Khalif and me.
However Khalif think the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad while me and all Islamic scholars I have read interpret it as the wandering Arabs 'submitted to Allah'.
So this is not a case of the problem of translation but the problem of getting the right context.

Now in the Quran there are a lot of such cases and it end up there are many versions of Islam as understood by those who read Arabic.

My view is all Muslims must read the Quran.
I have an electronic copy in English [Pickthall] where Muslims can read it in quicktime.

Quote:
Your scenario of Muslims constantly be exposed to the "violent verses" does not seem to be the norm and even among those who spend their life studying the Qur'an will never find any verses intrepted as condoning of promoting violence.
You are merely waving off the point without a proper understanding of what is going on in reality.

Note my presentation re Bell Curve in another post, i.e.

Familiarity with the Quran
20% very familiar with Quran
60% reasonable familiar
20% not very familiar with Quran.


Receptive to evil laden verses'

20% of evil prone receptive to evil laden verses [Duck perception],
60% not receptive to evil laden verses
20% blind to evil laden verses.

It is the 20% of those who are receptive to the evil laden elements who will be triggered to commit evils and violence of various degrees from low to high.

The above hypothesis is not merely speculation but supported by glaring evidences of real terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.


Quote:
If I had my way, (which fortunately I don't) I would make it illegal to translate the Qur'an into any language. Not even into MSA (Modern Standard Arabic). Simply because all translations lead to misinterpretations and a loss of an understanding of the Qur'an
Fortunately you don't.
As I had stated even those reading the original Arabic can misinterpret and misunderstand.
In addition, there is the dualistic, two truths and Duck-Rabbit nature of some verses which trigger evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
Translations of Quran will facilitate Allah exhortations of Muslims to read the perfect Quran.

It also facilitate non-Muslims to understand why SOME evil prone Muslims are committing terrible evils and violence when they are triggered by the evil laden verses in the Quran.

Quote:
If a person understands any verses as condoning or commanding violence, they do not understand those verses.
Note there is the dualistic, two truths and Duck-Rabbit nature of some verses which trigger evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
Those who understand the verses in term of Duck version are interpreting it correctly and rightly in accordance to the words of Allah. Unfortunately their good intention to please Allah in accordance to his words end up with terrible violence and evils upon non-Muslims.

As I had argued, a holy book should be idiot proof or fool proof to the extent that no one even idiots can see it any way to be triggered to commit evils and violence in the name of Islam and Allah. As such, a holy book should not include any ambiguous and leading evil laden elements at all.

Quote:
to understand the Qur'an as a Muslims understands it a non-Muslim should probably take a course in Qur'anic studies in an Islamic University.
A Muslim has to understand the Quran subjectively, biasly and never objectively. Otherwise his faith [Eeman] will not work.
In the present, there is no need for a non-Muslim to take a course in Quranic studies not especially from Muslims who are imperatively bias.
I am such a proof and I do have sufficient knowledge on Islam to justify whatever point I made on Islamic matters.
Others than some omission, have you read me posting erroneous views on Islam without proper justifications from the Quran, i.e. words of God?

Here is what one the link stated,

Quote:
There are various approaches to reading and reciting the Qur'an, depending on the methodology employed by the teacher. For example, if the aim is to learn the Arabic recitation, the reader is generally directed to start with the final juz, as the chapters and verses in the final juz are relatively short and easy to recite.

If the intention of the reader is to grow spiritually, and to use the wisdom contained in the Qur'an as the tool and means to enable such growth, it is best to read the Qur'an in the sequence it was revealed. This requires some extra effort on the part of the reader to discover the exact sequence of revelation, however there are many online resources which provide this information. If the reader is unable to obtain such information, or if the information is incomplete or unsatisfactory, then the reader can instead start with any of the Makki chapters (any good translation of the Qur'an will clearly indicate whether the verse originated in Mecca or Madinah). It is highly recommended that the beginner avoids reading the Madinati chapters unless he has a firm grasp of the messages contained in the Makki chapters.
How Should We Read the Qur'an?
This share the same view as me, i.e. to get a serious understanding of the Quran, one need to read it chronologically, i.e. in the sequence it was revealed.
Note earlier you disagree with reading it chronologically, now you seem to be endorsing it by supplying me the link.

Quote:
The preferred method of reading the Qur'an is to read the Meccan Surat before reading the Meadina ones. Juz 30 being the first to be read and learned and Jus 1,2 and 3 to come last. The Qur'an is not intended to be read in the order of Surah 1 to 114. The order of the Surah is primarily for ease of memorization, not for Qur'anic studies.
The effective method is the chronological order as mentioned above.
If the above is not available, then read the Meccan before the Medina ones.

The reality is practice is many who has the Quran will often start from page 1 to last page, unless the person is studious to bookmark the relevant section.
In this case, many readers will read the first few chapters say 1-10 and stop due to various reasons and their brain will be awashed with the more aggressive elements [more exciting] of the Quran than the [boring] eschatological elements.
 
Old 03-31-2016, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is a very narrow view.
Translations should be encouraged but a caution could be included to warn that translations are limited. Those who read the translated versions should be encouraged to read other translations as a comparison. Note I have accessed to 46 English translations.

I think this is the worse advice to be given to a Muslim.
As implied in the Quran, Allah expect all Muslims to read the Quran.
Therefore if they cannot read it in Arabic, they should read the translation version with a caution of the limitations of translations.
All Muslims must strive to understand the Quran and Allah's words.

What is critical is understanding the principles and contexts in the Quran and pronunciation is not critical.

Even if one read the Quran in Arabic with correct pronunciation, there is the very likelihood they did not understand the meaning and the context.

Note the case of 49:14 where I the word 'Aslama' i.e. submitted is understood by Khalif and me.
However Khalif think the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad while me and all Islamic scholars I have read interpret it as the wandering Arabs 'submitted to Allah'.
So this is not a case of the problem of translation but the problem of getting the right context.

Now in the Quran there are a lot of such cases and it end up there are many versions of Islam as understood by those who read Arabic.

My view is all Muslims must read the Quran.
I have an electronic copy in English [Pickthall] where Muslims can read it in quicktime.

You are merely waving off the point without a proper understanding of what is going on in reality.

Note my presentation re Bell Curve in another post, i.e.

Familiarity with the Quran
20% very familiar with Quran
60% reasonable familiar
20% not very familiar with Quran.


Receptive to evil laden verses'

20% of evil prone receptive to evil laden verses [Duck perception],
60% not receptive to evil laden verses
20% blind to evil laden verses.

It is the 20% of those who are receptive to the evil laden elements who will be triggered to commit evils and violence of various degrees from low to high.

The above hypothesis is not merely speculation but supported by glaring evidences of real terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.


Fortunately you don't.
As I had stated even those reading the original Arabic can misinterpret and misunderstand.
In addition, there is the dualistic, two truths and Duck-Rabbit nature of some verses which trigger evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
Translations of Quran will facilitate Allah exhortations of Muslims to read the perfect Quran.

It also facilitate non-Muslims to understand why SOME evil prone Muslims are committing terrible evils and violence when they are triggered by the evil laden verses in the Quran.

Note there is the dualistic, two truths and Duck-Rabbit nature of some verses which trigger evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence.
Those who understand the verses in term of Duck version are interpreting it correctly and rightly in accordance to the words of Allah. Unfortunately their good intention to please Allah in accordance to his words end up with terrible violence and evils upon non-Muslims.

As I had argued, a holy book should be idiot proof or fool proof to the extent that no one even idiots can see it any way to be triggered to commit evils and violence in the name of Islam and Allah. As such, a holy book should not include any ambiguous and leading evil laden elements at all.

A Muslim has to understand the Quran subjectively, biasly and never objectively. Otherwise his faith [Eeman] will not work.
In the present, there is no need for a non-Muslim to take a course in Quranic studies not especially from Muslims who are imperatively bias.
I am such a proof and I do have sufficient knowledge on Islam to justify whatever point I made on Islamic matters.
Others than some omission, have you read me posting erroneous views on Islam without proper justifications from the Quran, i.e. words of God?

Here is what one the link stated,



This share the same view as me, i.e. to get a serious understanding of the Quran, one need to read it chronologically, i.e. in the sequence it was revealed.
Note earlier you disagree with reading it chronologically, now you seem to be endorsing it by supplying me the link.

The effective method is the chronological order as mentioned above.
If the above is not available, then read the Meccan before the Medina ones.

The reality is practice is many who has the Quran will often start from page 1 to last page, unless the person is studious to bookmark the relevant section.
In this case, many readers will read the first few chapters say 1-10 and stop due to various reasons and their brain will be awashed with the more aggressive elements [more exciting] of the Quran than the [boring] eschatological elements.
I am not too certain if reading translations should be encouraged. The more I learn the more I tend to feel that one should not read the Qur'an until after they are Mumin and do it as an act of Islam. At which time they will be saying it in Arabic.

There is no requirement for a person to have read or studied the Qur'an to accept Islam. In fact if a person is born in a Muslim home they will learn how to perform Islam long before they read the Qur'an. The first and most important teacher of Islam will be the child's mother. In some cases she will be the only teacher of Islam they ever have.

Hearing recitations of the Qur'an will be what parts the Imam chooses to recite in each Rakkat of the 6 obligatory prayers. Very often that will be one of the Surah from Juz 30 (Surat 78-114). As the Imam has to recite from memory very often the Imam will have only memprized a few of them. I have come across some Imams that have no more than 3 or 4 Surat memoriized (My self included) Because of my age I am almost always expected to serve as Imam when I pray in community with other Muslims. Especially in the USA where over 3/4 of the Mosques do not have an Imam. The oldest person present usually serves as Imam. Every recitation from the Qur'an must be in Qur'anic Arabic and with proper tajweed. As the entire salat is required to be be in Qur'anic Arabic. When one goes into a Mosque for Salat they will hear nothing except Qur'anic Arabic from the First word of the Athan until the Salaam that ends Salah.

I personally feel it could be very confusing to a revert to Islam whose source of learning about Islam is from a translation as they will not hear the translation in the Mosque and it will be quite hard to comprehend what Surah the Imam is reciting.

A person whose knowledge of Islam is derived from the Qur'an especially a translation is going to feel very lost in a Mosque (My opinion)

I believe you have studied translations of the Qur'an and do posses knowledge of Islam. But has it really taught you Islam?

Can you understand what is happening even during our shortest Salah of the day Fajr Can you even tell where a Rakkat begins or Ends or even tell how many Rakkats are being recited?

Can you even understand the Qur'an recitations The Imam is reciting. Or even know at what points he is reciting a Surah. Performing Salah (Prayer) is the second most important Pillar of Islam. Show me where in the Qur'an you learn how to do this?





There is nothing in the Qur'an that will teach you how to perform even the simplest act of Islam --Salah.

For all practical purposes a person is not going to learn a thing about Islam through translations of the Qur'an
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