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Old 03-17-2016, 08:01 AM
 
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I googled the title of this thread, and to my dismay, it seems that Yemeni's are the only ones who are trying to do it. Outside of the outright bans and prohibitions, it appears that individual judicial interpretation is alive and well.

Here's the question ... I read of multiple individuals/groups desiring to integrate Sharia law into US law. How is this possible since Sharia is not codified, and any Sharia judge can change the law at will?

Maybe some of the smart Islamists here can explain to me how Sharia integration could/would occur.

El Nox
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:05 AM
 
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Shariah can apply only to Muslims. It cannot be forced upon anyone else. The Shariah is essentially codified in the Qur'an. For example, inheritence, subject to paying off any debt first, is divided between wife (one sixth first) and then, sons (two parts each), daughters (one part each). In case of marriage or divorce, certain rules apply. For example, there is no quick divorce. There has to be reconciliaion efforts in front of a council between the parties and only if the marriage is completely dead that the divorce would be finslised. The man can't marry his ex wife again unless she has married to another man, marriage consumated, and then divorced.

Basically, Shariah law is only for Muslims. Non-Muslims can have nothing to do with it.

Another important ruling in Islam is that Muslims must obey the law of the country they are livng in. Muslims in USA must obey law of the land. If they do, they are still within Islam when doing so.
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Old 03-17-2016, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Typically when Muslims in the USA ask for shariah law to be fecognized, they mean the civil laws just as the Judaic civil laws are recognized in ever state. As it is now although we can file our agreements as business contracts, but if a dispute arises we can not have an Islamic tribunal as the arbitrator.

Would Christians want a Muslim to arbitrate their divorce settlement? or to negotiate their marriage contract?


If Muslim men actually wanted multiple wives they would be opposed to the USA recognizing Sharia. As since a Sharia marriage is not recognized as marriage in some state a man could marry as many wives he desired and not be committing polygamy as the Sharia marriages would not be considered marriages. Yes there are a fewMuslims doing that, but not many as very few Muslim men could meet the Shariah requirements for having more than one wife.
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Typically when Muslims in the USA ask for shariah law to be fecognized, they mean the civil laws just as the Judaic civil laws are recognized in ever state. As it is now although we can file our agreements as business contracts, but if a dispute arises we can not have an Islamic tribunal as the arbitrator.
Now I really need an education. This is the first that I've heard about Judaic civil laws being recognized in every state. I am unaware of this. Please explain. Now for a second part, when you talk about 'agreements as business contracts', please give me an example or two of just what kinds of agreements would not be business contracts. How would an Islamic tribunal's judgement differ from a US court decision? Please give an example which would (hypothetically) show a difference in results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Would Christians want a Muslim to arbitrate their divorce settlement? or to negotiate their marriage contract?
Being male, I can see how a divorce settlement would be in my favor. Is this not true?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
If Muslim men actually wanted multiple wives they would be opposed to the USA recognizing Sharia. As since a Sharia marriage is not recognized as marriage in some state a man could marry as many wives he desired and not be committing polygamy as the Sharia marriages would not be considered marriages. Yes there are a fewMuslims doing that, but not many as very few Muslim men could meet the Shariah requirements for having more than one wife.
Small question ... would he be limited to 4 wives? Now back to divorce and death ... Do all wives share the estate equally? Do children share the estate equally regardless of order of marriage or birth?

Now, what are the Shariah requirements for having more than one wife?

It is my understanding that regarding marriage, "let your wives be numbered one, and two, and three, and four". The wives are to be treated equally. The children belong to the father. To divorce, the requirement is to say, "I divorce you" three times. Are these the Sharia marriage requirements?

I know this is drifting way off topic, but your responses are interesting and as I said, make me feel the need for more education.

El Nox
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Old 03-18-2016, 12:14 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
Now I really need an education. This is the first that I've heard about Judaic civil laws being recognized in every state. I am unaware of this.
Judaic Civil law (Halacha) is very close to being identical with Shariah law. It covers essentially the same issues. It is legal in every state: Sharaiah law was legal in every state also until 30 states voted to outlaw every form of Shariah in their states. This caused a panic when Muslims opposed those laws banning Sharia and the media portayed it as Muslims demanding Sharia.

A few links might help explain

Marshall Breger: Why Jews Can

Applying God

Religious Laws Long Recognized By U.S. Courts : NPR

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
Please explain. Now for a second part, when you talk about 'agreements as business contracts', please give me an example or two of just what kinds of agreements would not be business contracts. How would an Islamic tribunal's judgement differ from a US court decision? Please give an example which would (hypothetically) show a difference in results.

Adoption and inheritance laws might be 2 Examples.

Adoption is forbidden in Islam. One can not give up their family heritage and the ties between a person and birth family are not to be broken. although a child might have to be raised by someone other than the parents, that does not end the family link.

Islamic concept of ineritence is complex as not all thinks are considered inheritable. some example of things that are not inherited. The family house, the personal wealth of the husband. In the event of the death of the Husband whe wife retains ownership of the house and the husbands personal wealth. These are not part of the ineritence that is to be divided among the survivors.





Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
Being male, I can see how a divorce settlement would be in my favor. Is this not true?
A Shariah marriage is very difficult to negotiate. Divorce is very easy. A wise couple is certain to include all possible outcomes if the Nikkah is nullified (divorce) this is where a woman's wali is to be certain that the Nikkah will include provision for the wife if for some reason the marriage ends.

A wise woman will insure in the Nikkah that the house and all that is in it are her personal property and she will specify what she expects the husband to provide. She will also name a dowery that it will take the husband a lifetime to pay with monthly payments and in the event the marriage is terminated the balance becomes due in full.



Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
Small question ... would he be limited to 4 wives? Now back to divorce and death ... Do all wives share the estate equally? Do children share the estate equally regardless of order of marriage or birth?
Aman can have a maximum of 4 wives, but one is preferred. Few men can adequately provide for more than one wife.

Each wife is to have her own living space, typically this means her own house. In the Nikkah the woman specifies what type house she requires, what furnishings she desires and how much of a monthly household budget she need. This is all agreed upon before signing the Nikkah. The Husband is to provided eaqual value to every wife However can not reduce what any existing wife has and a new wife has to be provided no less than what any existing wife has and the husband agrees he must increase what the existing wives have to match.

typically the Husband seldom leaves much of an estate to be divided. As virtually everything of value is already owned by the wives. but the inheritance is divided in such a manner that the sons will receive twice what the daughters receive. In most cases this is essentially just a token formality as the wives typically assume full possession of everything before the inheritance is calculated. Much of this will depend upon what was agreed upon in the Nikkah (marriage agreement)



Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
Now, what are the Shariah requirements for having more than one wife?
1. The man must be financially able to provide for her equally to how any existing wife is provided for. The first choice for an additional wife should be a divorced or widowed woman with childre. If that is not available the next choice is a divorcee or widow without children. The only time he can look for a never married woman is if all the available widows and divorcees in the community turn him down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
It is my understanding that regarding marriage, "let your wives be numbered one, and two, and three, and four". The wives are to be treated equally. The children belong to the father. To divorce, the requirement is to say, "I divorce you" three times. Are these the Sharia marriage requirements?
Divorce is very easy in Islam. Getting married is difficult. The wife can divorce her husband the same way. A Nikkah can also be declared null by either party if they do not share the same bed for 3 continuous months. The Nikkah provides what the aggreed upon settlement will be if the marriage is voided.

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Nox View Post
I know this is drifting way off topic, but your responses are interesting and as I said, make me feel the need for more education.

El Nox
Shariah is very complex. Not a thing like what you see Saudi and Iran doing
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Old 03-18-2016, 12:35 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Adoption is forbidden in Islam.
??
The Quran did not state adoption is forbidden.
It is mentioned in the Quran, Muhammad had an adopted son, Zeyd. Muhammad married the wife of his adopted son after some 'scandalous' events.
The above imply adoption of children is permitted in Islam.

My personal views are there should be only one set of Laws for a country which must be secular.
Religion should not be mixed with politics and the judiciary.

Sharia Laws are ultimately grounded to a God who sent his message to a messenger.
The fact is God is illusory do not exists as real.
Therefore Laws grounded on illusions and supposed to be immutable should be avoided.

In addition Shariah Laws are abstracted from the sayings of Muhammad who was supposed to have a relation with God.
These sayings were recorded almost two hundred years after the death of Muhammad.
This basis is exposed to two weaknesses, i.e.

1. God is not real but an illusion, therefore immutable God's Law are not reliable for humanity within a changing reality.
2. There is a great exposure to corruption and personal interests with the sayings of Muhammad.

With such critical weakness as in point 1 & 2 above, Sharia Laws should NEVER be imposed on human beings within a real changing world.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-18-2016 at 12:49 AM..
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Old 03-18-2016, 12:42 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran did not state adoption is forbidden.
It is mentioned in the Quran, Muhammad had an adopted son, Zeyd. Muhammad married the wife of his adopted son after some 'scandalous' events.
True adoption is not fobidden in the Qur'an. but the question is in regards to Shariah and there is no provision for adoption in the 4 Shariah Madhabs.
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Old 03-18-2016, 12:53 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
True adoption is not fobidden in the Qur'an. but the question is in regards to Shariah and there is no provision for adoption in the 4 Shariah Madhabs.
Your reply don't jive.

You stated adoption is forbidden in Islam.
Islam is represented by its core text, i.e. the Quran.
Therefore if the Quran 'permit' adoption, then Islam [Quran] permit adoption.
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Old 03-18-2016, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Your reply don't jive.

You stated adoption is forbidden in Islam.
Islam is represented by its core text, i.e. the Quran.
Therefore if the Quran 'permit' adoption, then Islam [Quran] permit adoption.
My error. I should have said Shariah, not Islam. Thank you for pointing that out. I did not even notice I had typed Islam. Must be past my bedtime.
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Old 03-18-2016, 09:31 AM
 
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Thank you both for the education. I'm only allowed to rep each of you once a topic.

El Nox
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