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Old 03-18-2016, 02:08 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461

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Khalif have been banking on 60:8 as the absolute verse to support the claim 'Islam is a religion of peace'.
I argued otherwise that the Quran [in part-not whole] contain thousands of verses that contain evils and violent elements of various degrees [low to high] that influenced and inspired evil prone Muslims from a pool of 300 millions who are naturally born with a tendency to commit evil.

Since my justifications are very extensive and complex, I take the opportunity of presenting this nicely compiled article to support my arguments.

Notes;
1. For those who adopt the Quran-Only approach, they should focus only on the verses from the Quran and ignore the elements from the Ahadith.
2. For those who accept the Ahadith as part of Islam, then they will have to note the points from the Ahadith mentioned in this article.

The relevant points that support my argument is presented in 23 pages, thus one will need to read them all to account for this serious contention re 60:8.

With reference to 60:8 read from the part that start with the following;
"With that behind us, we want to focus our energies discussing the following passage [60:8] that has been used by many a Muslim apologist:"

in [] = mine

Quote:
Oftentimes, Muslims present specific Quranic citations in order to convince non-Muslims, especially Westerners, that Islam is a very tolerant religion that allows for or even promotes peaceful coexistence with other religious groups. The most famous citation, one that I am sure many Westerners have heard presented on the media, is surah 2:256.

With that [2:256] behind us, we want to focus our energies discussing the following passage [60:8] that has been used by many a Muslim apologist:


God forbids you not, as regards those who have not fought you in religion's cause, nor expelled you from your habitations, that you should be kindly to them, and act justly towards them; surely God loves the just. God only forbids you as to those who have fought you in religion's cause, and expelled you from your habitations, and have supported in your expulsion, that you should take them for friends. And whosoever takes them for friends, those -- they are the evildoers. S. 60:8-9

Apparently, this passage commands Muslims to live peaceably with other non-Muslim groups as long as the latter do not fight and/or harass the Muslims.
But even that is not so clear.

.....
.....

[Here is why?]
[This is followed by 23 pages of arguments and justification why 60:8 is not significant and a determinant of Islam-as-a-whole is a religion of peace
.]


The Myth of Islamic Tolerance
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Old 03-18-2016, 02:41 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khalif have been banking on 60:8 as the absolute verse to support the claim 'Islam is a religion of peace'.
I argued otherwise that the Quran [in part-not whole] contain thousands of verses that contain evils and violent elements of various degrees [low to high] that influenced and inspired evil prone Muslims from a pool of 300 millions who are naturally born with a tendency to commit evil.

Since my justifications are very extensive and complex, I take the opportunity of presenting this nicely compiled article to support my arguments.

Notes;
1. For those who adopt the Quran-Only approach, they should focus only on the verses from the Quran and ignore the elements from the Ahadith.
2. For those who accept the Ahadith as part of Islam, then they will have to note the points from the Ahadith mentioned in this article.

The relevant points that support my argument is presented in 23 pages, thus one will need to read them all to account for this serious contention re 60:8.

With reference to 60:8 read from the part that start with the following;
"With that behind us, we want to focus our energies discussing the following passage [60:8] that has been used by many a Muslim apologist:"

in [] = mine
I have never claimed that Islam is religion of peace. So stop lying about Khalif.

It would be wrong of me to claim Islam is religion of war or religion of fighting or religion of intolerance or religion of hate or religion of terrorim or religion of violence. It is religion of Muslims.
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Old 03-18-2016, 03:26 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
Reputation: 289
Before one begins to reject 60:8 and 60:9, one must answer the following questions:

Does the Qur'an require Muslims to treat badly, fight, and kill ALL non-Muslims or unbelievers?

If 'yes', where in the Qur'an?
I 'no', how do you reach such conclusion after reading the Qjur'an?

This should, inshallah, sort out falsehood from the truth about the religion Islam as described in the Qur'an.
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Old 03-18-2016, 03:43 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I have never claimed that Islam is religion of peace. So stop lying about Khalif.

It would be wrong of me to claim Islam is religion of war or religion of fighting or religion of intolerance or religion of hate or religion of terrorim or religion of violence. It is religion of Muslims.
OK, you did not state "Islam is a religion of peace." But I think it does summarize the issues we are discussing relating to 60:8.

60:8 advocated kindness and justice to infidels who do not waged war against Muslim.
So in a way 60:8 can represent the claim 'Islam is a religion of Peace' which I would counter otherwise that it is not.

If you don't agree with my proposition, then we can forget it and merely state the full verse of 60:8 whenever we refer to it.
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Old 03-18-2016, 03:50 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Before one begins to reject 60:8 and 60:9, one must answer the following questions:

Does the Qur'an require Muslims to treat badly, fight, and kill ALL non-Muslims or unbelievers?

If 'yes', where in the Qur'an?
If 'no', how do you reach such conclusion after reading the Qjur'an?

This should, inshallah, sort out falsehood from the truth about the religion Islam as described in the Qur'an.
Note the above points i.e. evil and violent elements in the Quran are argued in the article I linked.

I understand there 23 pages but since it is such a fundamental issue, I think reading the 23 pages is a fair request.
Without considering and ignoring the Ahadith elements, referring to Quranic verses, the article acknowledge 60:8 but claimed it [as one of the rare positive verses] is outweighed by the tons of various other evil and violent elements [low to high] in the Quran.

I have other additional points which I will add after we have exhausted the points [Quran-Only] in that article.
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Old 03-18-2016, 04:04 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
OK, you did not state "Islam is a religion of peace." But I think it does summarize the issues we are discussing relating to 60:8.
No. It summarizes that you imagine something that is not stated there.

Quote:
60:8 advocated kindness and justice to infidels who do not waged war against Muslim.
So in a way 60:8 can represent the claim 'Islam is a religion of Peace' which I would counter otherwise that it is not.
No once again. The verses 60:8-9 are not representing the claim that Islam is religion of peace but showing you that Muslims are not required to mistreat, be unkind, be disrespectful or kill peaceful non-muslims but treaf then justly and with respect. It is as simple as that.

Quote:
If you don't agree with my proposition, then we can forget it and merely state the full verse of 60:8 whenever we refer to it.
Who cares about your proposition when the Qur'an is clear in its proposition of 60:8-9!
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Old 03-18-2016, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Khalif have been banking on 60:8 as the absolute verse to support the claim 'Islam is a religion of peace'.
I argued otherwise that the Quran [in part-not whole] contain thousands of verses that contain evils and violent elements of various degrees [low to high] that influenced and inspired evil prone Muslims from a pool of 300 millions who are naturally born with a tendency to commit evil.

Since my justifications are very extensive and complex, I take the opportunity of presenting this nicely compiled article to support my arguments.

Notes;
1. For those who adopt the Quran-Only approach, they should focus only on the verses from the Quran and ignore the elements from the Ahadith.
2. For those who accept the Ahadith as part of Islam, then they will have to note the points from the Ahadith mentioned in this article.

The relevant points that support my argument is presented in 23 pages, thus one will need to read them all to account for this serious contention re 60:8.

With reference to 60:8 read from the part that start with the following;
"With that behind us, we want to focus our energies discussing the following passage [60:8] that has been used by many a Muslim apologist:"

in [] = mine
Quote:
Oftentimes, Muslims present specific Quranic citations in order to convince non-Muslims, especially Westerners, that Islam is a very tolerant religion that allows for or even promotes peaceful coexistence with other religious groups. The most famous citation, one that I am sure many Westerners have heard presented on the media, is surah 2:256.

With that [2:256] behind us, we want to focus our energies discussing the following passage [60:8] that has been used by many a Muslim apologist:


God forbids you not, as regards those who have not fought you in religion's cause, nor expelled you from your habitations, that you should be kindly to them, and act justly towards them; surely God loves the just. God only forbids you as to those who have fought you in religion's cause, and expelled you from your habitations, and have supported in your expulsion, that you should take them for friends. And whosoever takes them for friends, those -- they are the evildoers. S. 60:8-9

Apparently, this passage commands Muslims to live peaceably with other non-Muslim groups as long as the latter do not fight and/or harass the Muslims.
But even that is not so clear.

.....
.....

[Here is why?]
[This is followed by 23 pages of arguments and justification why 60:8 is not significant and a determinant of Islam-as-a-whole is a religion of peace
.]


The Myth of Islamic Tolerance

Rather than "Beating a Dead Horse" I will just direct you to a rebuttal of Sam Shamouns link


Quote:
Kaleef K. Karim

It is astonishing to see how Christian extremists, and Zionists love to cherry-pick verses out of the Quran in order to support their conclusion that Islam endorses violence against the innocent. Sadly, the ignorant, bigoted folk spew this further to the masses that Islam is a religion of violence. Let’s be clear – Muslims are never ordered to fight against the innocent. Neither the Quran nor the Hadith endorse violence against the innocent. However, as I have examined in many of verses in their historical context, the Quran does allow people to fight back in self-defence, in order to repel oppression, persecution and tyranny.

The following verses below are used by critics who espouse that Islam is a religion of violence. I have provided scholarly commentaries on the verses, in order to better understand the verses and clarify them through their historical context. Click on the links for more information.
Debunking The Myth That The Quran Endorses Violence – Discover The Truth
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Old 03-19-2016, 01:07 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. It summarizes that you imagine something that is not stated there.

No once again. The verses 60:8-9 are not representing the claim that Islam is religion of peace but showing you that Muslims are not required to mistreat, be unkind, be disrespectful or kill peaceful non-muslims but treaf then justly and with respect. It is as simple as that.

Who cares about your proposition when the Qur'an is clear in its proposition of 60:8-9!
Are you here to discuss rationally and objectively or simply push your views through.

I could say, 'Who cares about your proposition which is dependent on an illusory God' then end of discussion.
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Old 03-19-2016, 02:16 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Rather than "Beating a Dead Horse" I will just direct you to a rebuttal of Sam Shamouns link

Debunking The Myth That The Quran Endorses Violence – Discover The Truth
You reply is off topic and do not related to 60:8.

I suggest you read the article of Sam Shamoun related to 60:8 which I linked.
He concluded the following;

Quote:
In conclusion, we must say that surah 60:8-9 really doesn’t establish the position of certain Muslims that Islam tolerates the existence of other religions.
The passage directly conflicts with other verses which command offensive aggression against non-Muslims, which means that the Quran is contradicting itself, or these passages must be explained in a way in which both statements are true.
In this paper, we tried to present the different ways in which this can be done; and yet no matter which position a Muslim opts for, he/she is left with the inescapable conclusion that Islam does not treat the advocates of other religions fairly and equally.
One critical point of contention in that article is this;

Quote:
The question before us is rather simple.
What does the Quran classify as fighting against Muslims?
Does this refer to physical fighting, where the unbelievers take up arms and engage Muslims in battle?
Or can the term also encompass the idea of verbal fighting, a verbal exchange where non-Muslims engage Muslims in an intellectual battle regarding the truth claims of Islam?
In other words, does the Quran classify the challenges posed against the veracity of Muhammad and against the claims for the divine origin of the Quran as falling under the category of fighting?

As one astute questioner by the name David stated to Dr. Badawi:
Quote:
Hi Dr. Badawi.
One of the famous quotation that Muslims use when talking about violence and peace is that Islam is a religion of peace and war in Islam is only for self-defense.
However, you one day claimed: "Actual armed jihad is permissible under two conditions alone: one is for self-defense, and the other is for fighting against oppression." (cited in Diana Eck, A New Religious America, HarperSanFrancisco, 2001, p. 238).

Although, Dr. Badawi, you are quite accurate in describing the conditions of armed jihad in Islam, what you fail to say is that the definitions of "self-defense" and "fighting against oppression" are much broader than usually understood.
Many Orthodox Muslims believe that if a nation's leaders do not acknowledge the rule of Islam, then those rulers are "oppressors" and thus a legitimate target for war (see John Kelsay, Islam and War, Louisville: Westminster/John Knox Press, 1993, p. 35).
Many Muslims argue that America is a cultural aggressor by exporting its Hollywood values all over the world, and thus any fight against Americans is done in self-defense (see the article by Mark Galli, "Now What? A Christian response to religious terrorism," Christianity Today, Oct 22, 2001).
Therefore, there is no end to how a Muslim group can define "self-defense" and "oppression" and thus find an Islamic justification for violence. (Source)
If one read the article with the above point in mind
'What does the Quran classify as fighting against Muslims?'
then we are discussing a different point of view from the typical perspective of the violent verses.

There is the discussion of 'Fasad' - corruption and mischiefs.
Quote:
Fasad, literally 'corruption', in Qur'anic terminology, means creating disorder and corruption earth BY FOLLOWING A PATH OTHER THAN GOD’S. Islam maintains that true peace and happiness emanate ONLY THROUGH THE OBSERVANCE OF GOD’S COMMANDS and through making a conscious effort to see that His laws alone are implemented in every sphere of life. Fasad occurs when man violates God's laws and disobeys Him. Fasad may therefore be partial as well as total; partial when one disregards God's law in one aspect of life while acknowledging His sovereignty in other spheres. If a society is based on the denial of God, that society is bound to be a corrupt and exploitative society - hence full of fasad. (Glossary of Islamic Terms; capital emphasis ours)
Quote:
The Punishment of those Who Cause Mischief in the Land
Allah said next, ...
<5:53 The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.>
Quote:
Thus, a careful reading of the Quran leads us to conclude that fighting against Muhammad isn’t restricted solely to physical, military expeditions.
It [fighting] also includes challenging the truth claims of Islam and Muhammad’s prophethood.
In other words, people must not call into question Muhammad’s truth claims, but simply blindly follow what he has commanded or, as in the case of Jews and Christians who are permitted to live under Islamic rule, remain silent about their disbelief in him.
Otherwise, they will be viewed as causing mischief in Muslim land, thereby fighting against Allah and his messenger, and coming under the judgment of the Quran. If the Jew or Christian agreed not to question Islam, or refrain from trying to convert any Muslim, then he/she could retain his/her personal belief as long as the jizya, or taxation, be paid.

Quote:
The very immediate context of surah 60 itself substantiates this interpretation since we read there that:
If they come on you, they will be enemies to you, and stretch against you their hands AND THEIR TONGUES, to do you evil, and they wish that you may disbelieve. S. 60:2
The reference to "THEIR TONGUES" clearly alludes to the criticisms directed against Muhammad by the unbelievers, i.e. that the unbelievers challenged his prophetic claims as well insulted him for trying to foist this scam on them. Those who would dare challenge Muhammad and critique his religion are enemies that must be vanquished.
Further substantiation for this understanding can be seen from the way Muhammad treated those who exposed him as a false prophet, or as a fraud. Most, if not all, of them were brutally killed simply because they spoke out against Muhammad’s prophetic claims, or for satirizing him in poetry. Here is a link which provides detailed documentation regarding this very point.
In conclusion again;

Quote:
In conclusion, we must say that surah 60:8-9 really doesn’t establish the position of certain Muslims that Islam tolerates the existence of other religions.
The passage directly conflicts with other verses which command offensive aggression against non-Muslims, which means that the Quran is contradicting itself, or these passages must be explained in a way in which both statements are true.
In this paper, we tried to present the different ways in which this can be done; and yet no matter which position a Muslim opts for, he/she is left with the inescapable conclusion that Islam does not treat the advocates of other religions fairly and equally.
The fact of the above is supported by real terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims who perceived 'Duck' and do 'Duck' accordingly with the Quran in their zeal to obey and please Allah.
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Old 03-19-2016, 02:49 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Are you here to discuss rationally and objectively or simply push your views through.
There is no rationality in thinking that when the Qur'an says to respect unbelievers who do not wage war on Muslims you reject it but when it says to kill the unbelievers who wage war on you for your religion, you soon take it up as if a bee has stung you.

Quote:
I could say, 'Who cares about your proposition which is dependent on an illusory God' then end of discussion.
I already know you don't care. As long as you care to discuss the Qur'an, I will carry on discussing. So far you are not dscussing but merely presenting anti-Islam, anti-Qur'an, anti-God,, anti-Muhammad views.
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