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Old 03-18-2016, 03:27 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is a philosophical analysis of Duck-Rabbit verses in the Quran.




The above is a single image but in reality a person may see the following;
1. An image of a Duck
2. An image of a Rabbit.

In most cases a person will only see one image, either the 'Duck or the Rabbit' and never both unless they are told there is the other image. Even then they will have difficulty in seeing the other image until someone slowly point to the outline of the other image.

In the absence of being told there are two images therein,
-one person-X will insist s/he saw a Duck and nothing else.
-the other person-Y will insist s/he saw a Rabbit and nothing else.
Because each relied on their senses, both may even dare to bet to their last dollar or even their life on what they really saw with their own eyes.

My hypothesis;
There are Duck-Rabbit type of verses in the Quran.
When some Muslims [X] read certain verses in the Quran they understand only a 'Duck' and nothing else.
When another group of Muslim [Y] read the same verses in the Quran they understand only a 'Rabbit' and nothing else.

Because only Allah can decide what is the truth and no humans can;
thus those Muslims who understood the 'Duck' verses will insist what they understood is the truth and the good.
On the other hand, those Muslims-Y who understood the 'Rabbit' verses will insist what they understood is the truth and the good.

Because both Group of Muslims interpret what they understood of the verses to be true and good, they will comply with the verses of the Quran from their respective perspective to obey and please Allah to ensure they avoid going to hell and get a passage to Paradise.

We cannot blame or condemn X or Y for seeing their respective images, either duck or rabbit because they generally were born [their nature] and destined to see either duck or rabbit and not both.

Therefore if the image of the Duck direct Muslims-X to do good, then it is a good thing.
If the image of the Rabbit inspired Muslims-Y to commit evils and violence, we cannot blame Y fundamentally because it was Y's nature to be triggered to commit evils when exposed to the image.

The blame should be on the nature of those verses in the Quran, they have a dualistic nature that trigger different people to experience different truths from one single verse.

My point is;
If a religion understand the above psychology and human nature, it should not present verses that are likely to have a dualistic, two truths and of Duck-Rabbit nature in their core holy text that are likely to be interpreted differently by different people based on their inherent nature.

It is a fact the Quran has a lot of verses that has a dualistic, two truths and of Duck-Rabbit nature that prompt SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.
As explained above, because of the Duck-Rabbit nature, both are right [even the real consequences turn out to be evil and violent by Muslims-Y] and no one can decide who is right or wrong except Allah who cannot appear on Earth to decide.

Muslims must acknowledge the above fact and think hard on how to resolve the various dilemmas.

Views?
Any solutions?
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Old 03-18-2016, 03:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is a philosophical analysis of Duck-Rabbit verses in the Quran.

The above is a single image but in reality a person may see the following;
1. An image of a Duck
2. An image of a Rabbit.

In most cases a person will only see one image, either the 'Duck or the Rabbit' and never both unless they are told there is the other image. Even then they will have difficulty in seeing the other image until someone slowly point to the outline of the other image.

Views?
Any solutions?
You have already explained the selective viewing and then have given a solution as well. When you see the outline, you will see separate images as well. I call the "outline" the Qur'anic context.

All praise be to Allah!
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Old 03-18-2016, 07:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Here is a philosophical analysis of Duck-Rabbit verses in the Quran.




The above is a single image but in reality a person may see the following;
1. An image of a Duck
2. An image of a Rabbit.

In most cases a person will only see one image, either the 'Duck or the Rabbit' and never both unless they are told there is the other image. Even then they will have difficulty in seeing the other image until someone slowly point to the outline of the other image.

In the absence of being told there are two images therein,
-one person-X will insist s/he saw a Duck and nothing else.
-the other person-Y will insist s/he saw a Rabbit and nothing else.
Because each relied on their senses, both may even dare to bet to their last dollar or even their life on what they really saw with their own eyes.

My hypothesis;
There are Duck-Rabbit type of verses in the Quran.
When some Muslims [X] read certain verses in the Quran they understand only a 'Duck' and nothing else.
When another group of Muslim [Y] read the same verses in the Quran they understand only a 'Rabbit' and nothing else.

Because only Allah can decide what is the truth and no humans can;
thus those Muslims who understood the 'Duck' verses will insist what they understood is the truth and the good.
On the other hand, those Muslims-Y who understood the 'Rabbit' verses will insist what they understood is the truth and the good.

Because both Group of Muslims interpret what they understood of the verses to be true and good, they will comply with the verses of the Quran from their respective perspective to obey and please Allah to ensure they avoid going to hell and get a passage to Paradise.

We cannot blame or condemn X or Y for seeing their respective images, either duck or rabbit because they generally were born [their nature] and destined to see either duck or rabbit and not both.

Therefore if the image of the Duck direct Muslims-X to do good, then it is a good thing.
If the image of the Rabbit inspired Muslims-Y to commit evils and violence, we cannot blame Y fundamentally because it was Y's nature to be triggered to commit evils when exposed to the image.

The blame should be on the nature of those verses in the Quran, they have a dualistic nature that trigger different people to experience different truths from one single verse.

My point is;
If a religion understand the above psychology and human nature, it should not present verses that are likely to have a dualistic, two truths and of Duck-Rabbit nature in their core holy text that are likely to be interpreted differently by different people based on their inherent nature.

It is a fact the Quran has a lot of verses that has a dualistic, two truths and of Duck-Rabbit nature that prompt SOME evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.
As explained above, because of the Duck-Rabbit nature, both are right [even the real consequences turn out to be evil and violent by Muslims-Y] and no one can decide who is right or wrong except Allah who cannot appear on Earth to decide.

Muslims must acknowledge the above fact and think hard on how to resolve the various dilemmas.

Views?
Any solutions?
I think it's neither a duck or the rabbit.
Rabbit does not have these kind of ruler straight ears at the back of its head, and the duck does not have this kind of out of proportion beak.

Quran is the book of guidance for those who are on guard of their faith. It's not a quiz to figure out whether it's a duck or rabbit.

We have a short life which gets over in blink of an eye. It's our choice whether we want to live a peaceful and mideocre life in the light of this guidance OR we can twist and turn the versus or out right deny this guidance; however, the only and only and only guarantee in life is death. It comes to all because that's what God has promised. And in the end we will be responsible of our choices that we made in how we dealt with the message of Quran.
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Old 03-18-2016, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
I think it's neither a duck or the rabbit.
Rabbit does not have these kind of ruler straight ears at the back of its head, and the duck does not have this kind of out of proportion beak.
You are so ignorant on this analogy.
The above is merely one example [of low pixels] I picked from the 100s with more realistic drawings that available re Google Search.
The analogy is a demonstration of the general principle there are things in reality which are vulnerable to dualistic perception depending on the psychological profile and inclinations of a person.

The more serious issue is the Rorschach inkblot test.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_test
It has been employed to detect underlying thought disorder, especially in cases where patients are reluctant to describe their thinking processes openly.
Quote:
Quran is the book of guidance for those who are on guard of their faith. It's not a quiz to figure out whether it's a duck or rabbit.
If you understand the above analogy, then you will understand the Quran like most texts and things are vulnerable to be understood differently by different people with different psychological profile.

Quote:
We have a short life which gets over in blink of an eye. It's our choice whether we want to live a peaceful and mediocre life in the light of this guidance OR we can twist and turn the versus or out right deny this guidance; however, the only and only and only guarantee in life is death.
There is no need for you to advise on this. This is common sense which most adults will understand.

Quote:
It comes to all because that's what God has promised. And in the end we will be responsible of our choices that we made in how we dealt with the message of Quran.
The above [short life] is common sense but because you and believers are psychologically VERY desperate, you and them jump and cling to an illusory God to soothe your angst.
The consequences of theism [especially Islam] is the resulting terrible evils and violence by SOME evil prone Muslims.

On the other hand, the fact of a short life is common sense, but religions like Buddhism, Jainism and others resolve the associated psychological angst without the need for a God but rather via self-development of one's mind without the side effects of terrible evils and violence to others.

In Summary;

1. Life is short
2. Because of 1 above, humans has anxieties over it.
To resolve 2.;
3. Islam has the Duck-Rabbit Quran with consequences of terrible evils by SOME.
4. Buddhism, Jainism & other has self-improvement techniques with no consequence of terrible evils.

Therefore Buddhism and the likes are more superior religions than Islam in terms of peace to humanity.

The above is merely a relative comparison to show that Islam is inferior to Buddhism and others.
Personally I believe ALL religions has their cons and should be weaned off in the future when more efficient [fool proof] alternatives are available.
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Old 03-18-2016, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You have already explained the selective viewing and then have given a solution as well. When you see the outline, you will see separate images as well. I call the "outline" the Qur'anic context.

All praise be to Allah!
I may not have been specific. My point of the outline in the earlier part was not intended to be a solution in this case of Duck-Rabbit in relation to the Quran.

Note this point I wrote in the OP
My point is;
If a religion understand the above psychology and human nature, it should not present verses that are likely to have a dualistic, two truths and of Duck-Rabbit nature in their core holy text that are likely to be interpreted differently by different people based on their inherent nature.


What I had intended in this case was the Quran presented a Duck-Rabbit scenario and there is no way Muslims who saw the Duck or Rabbit will be able to see the other.
The outline cannot be determined because Allah cannot appear on Earth to point it out.

Therefore my hypothesis remain as;
1. When some Muslims [X] read certain verses in the Quran they understand only a 'Duck' and nothing else.
2. When another group of Muslim [Y] read the same verses in the Quran they understand only a 'Rabbit' and nothing else.
In general, there is no way Muslims [X] who perceive the 'Duck' will ever see the 'Rabbit' or vice-versa.
They cannot see the other because they are born naturally to see only one picture and not the other.

Here is a more clearer analogy which is like those with color-blind.
If a person is born with color-blindness, that person will not see what a normal person will see and they will see something different.

So your suggestion is not a solution.

The obvious solution is to get rid of the trigger and stimuli that trigger SOME people to perceive evil and then act out the evil.

My question is; are there other solutions?
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Old 03-18-2016, 11:52 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You will find that those of us who see the rabbit and not the duck will contend that what you and others perceive "Evil Laden Verses" actually discourage violence and without them more of the percent that are evil prone will commit evil. those same verses guide to moderation not extremism as they show the price for extremism.
Your point and counter is moot.

Those verses may have discourage evils and violence but we are not concern about the reduction.
What we are concern are the actual resultant evils and violence that is real since Islam emerged, at present and will happen in the future.

Those verses may have reduced the evils and violence by say 10% from 70 to 60%. But you will note the resultant net of 60% is still a very critical and significant quantum of evil and violence.

Point is even if there is a reduction, we cannot ignore the 60% of existing evils and violence.
Note recently Secretary of State Kerry accused ISIS of committing genocide.
My hypothesis [can prove it] there are sufficient elements in the Quran to influence the evil prone [those who perceive the "Duck" elements] to commit genocide on non-Muslims.

Quote:
to say they increase violence is very similar to saying that teaching people that some US laws will carry the death penalty inspires people to commit murder.
The death penalty of some US laws are very obvious deterrents without conditions. It is very straightforward, i.e. if one commit murder then one will face the death penalty.
It is not like verses in the Quran which are vague and ambiguous [of Duck-Rabbit] like,
Allah sanction Muslims to fight [kill] and specifically state with glee, 'smite the neck of the infidels'
IF Islam is or Muslims are under threat.
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Old 03-19-2016, 03:04 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is a case of a Muslim reading the Quran who perceived 'Duck' and acted 'Duck' acts.

Quote:
Last Monday, a man walked into a Canadian Armed Forces recruiting office in Toronto and began to attack the military personnel working there.
After first assaulting the soldier stationed at the reception desk, he pulled out a knife and, while yelling “Allah told me to do this,” slashed two military workers who had come to their comrade’s assistance.

The most conspicuous example of this was provided by Toronto’s police chief, Mark Saunders. At a news conference on the day of the attack, he refused to say what Ali was yelling while trying to murder Canadian military personnel.

However, given that most people are familiar with Islamic terrorism by now, anyone yelling “Allah told me do this,” while attempting to kill Canadian military personnel would indicate even to the most obtuse that the attack had something to do with Islam. Even lacking any knowledge concerning the comments, some Canadians had probably immediately and rightly suspected it was an Islamist terror attack. It is well known by now that Muslim terrorists are targeting Western soldiers in their native countries for their governments’ participation in the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts and that Canada is not immune to this.


A Hate That Has (Officially) No Name | Frontpage Mag
The problem here the refusal to acknowledge the effective root causes.
When the effective root causes are not identified nor recognized, it is unlikely humanity will resolve the problems and the terrible evils, violence and terror will continue to be committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.
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Old 03-19-2016, 04:07 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I may not have been specific. My point of the outline in the earlier part was not intended to be a solution in this case of Duck-Rabbit in relation to the Quran.
No point in ducking now. Too late!

Quote:
Note this point I wrote in the OP
My point is;
If a religion understand the above psychology and human nature, it should not present verses that are likely to have a dualistic, two truths and of Duck-Rabbit nature in their core holy text that are likely to be interpreted differently by different people based on their inherent nature.
That would be true only if those were the only two verses that made up the whole Qur'an. But that is not the case, is it?

Quote:
What I had intended in this case was the Quran presented a Duck-Rabbit scenario and there is no way Muslims who saw the Duck or Rabbit will be able to see the other.
The outline cannot be determined because Allah cannot appear on Earth to point it out.
Allah has pointed out the outline in the Qur'an. If someone thinks it is a rabbit or a duck but does look at the outline then they need to go to an optician so that they can see the outline as well.

Quote:
Therefore my hypothesis remain as;
1. When some Muslims [X] read certain verses in the Quran they understand only a 'Duck' and nothing else.
2. When another group of Muslim [Y] read the same verses in the Quran they understand only a 'Rabbit' and nothing else.
In general, there is no way Muslims [X] who perceive the 'Duck' will ever see the 'Rabbit' or vice-versa.
They cannot see the other because they are born naturally to see only one picture and not the other.
It is exactly the same with unbelievers who see only one image in the Qur'an but not the other image or the outline.

Quote:
Here is a more clearer analogy which is like those with color-blind.
If a person is born with color-blindness, that person will not see what a normal person will see and they will see something different.

So your suggestion is not a solution.
Thank you for telling me that just as some muslims are colour-blind, unbelievers (the Islam hating variety) are colour-blind too. How can that be the fault of the Qur'an which is not even in colour?

Quote:
The obvious solution is to get rid of the trigger and stimuli that trigger SOME people to perceive evil and then act out the evil.
Not if they are colour-blind! (Sorry mate, you have been caught again!)

Quote:
My question is; are there other solutions?
The only solution, in case of the Qur'an, is to understand the Qur'an in full and make sure that no verse is taken out of context and out of the context of the Qur'an.

The Qur'an is a unique book. There is no other book that is explaining itself in full.

16:89 ... We have revealed the book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news to those who submit.

17:89 And certainly We have explained for people in this Qur'an every kind of similitude, but most people do not consent to aught but denying.

18:54 And certainly We have explained in this Qur'an every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.


You may of course carry on in your contention! I am already aware of it.
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Old 03-19-2016, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
Note this point I wrote in the OP
My point is;
If a religion understand the above psychology and human nature, it should not present verses that are likely to have a dualistic, two truths and of Duck-Rabbit nature in their core holy text that are likely to be interpreted differently by different people based on their inherent nature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
That would be true only if those were the only two verses that made up the whole Qur'an. But that is not the case, is it?
You do not seem to understand the full implication of the Duck-Rabbit principles.

The Duck-Rabbit principles are applicable to the following;
1. One phrase of one verse of the Quran
1a. One verse in the Quran
2. One paragraph
3. Each Chapter
4. A section of the Quran
5. The whole Quran
6. The total ethos of the religion


Quote:
Allah has pointed out the outline in the Qur'an. If someone thinks it is a rabbit or a duck but does look at the outline then they need to go to an optician so that they can see the outline as well.
If a real Allah [all powerful and all knowing] had actually authored the Quran, then it is likely had only one specific intention.
But the problem is no one has ever seen a real Allah nor can Allah appear to confirm his real intention.

The fact is thus the Quran was authored by a person or group of people.
It is because it was authored by fallible people that the Quran ended with a Duck-Rabbit scenario.
The other problem is, humans are naturally born to see either the duck or rabbit and they cannot change their DNA.
There are no opticians available [or any one] to show them the outline.

Thus those who perceive 'duck' [20%] will do 'duck' will end up committing terrible evils and violence.
Those who perceive 'rabbit' [80%] will do the 'rabbit' things and end up as moderates.

Quote:
Therefore my hypothesis remain as;
1. When some Muslims [X] read certain verses in the Quran they understand only a 'Duck' and nothing else.
2. When another group of Muslim [Y] read the same verses in the Quran they understand only a 'Rabbit' and nothing else.
In general, there is no way Muslims [X] who perceive the 'Duck' will ever see the 'Rabbit' or vice-versa.
They cannot see the other because they are born naturally to see only one picture and not the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif
It is exactly the same with unbelievers who see only one image in the Qur'an but not the other image or the outline.
Maybe some unbelievers will see one image but not all.

What I have objectively presented here is the seeing of two images in the Quran, i.e. Duck or Rabbit.
So you cannot accused me of not seeing the other perspective.

On the other hand you are only seeing one perspective and is so desperate to insist there is only one perspective,

Quote:
Thank you for telling me that just as some muslims are colour-blind, unbelievers (the Islam hating variety) are colour-blind too. How can that be the fault of the Qur'an which is not even in colour?
Yes, as above some unbelievers could be color blind but not me. I have presented the facts from various perspective and not just one fixed perspective.

Note color-blind is merely an analogy. Your counter point 'Quran is not even in color' is rather intellectually dumb.
The Quran is PARTLY at fault because it was authored by a person or group of person in such a weak manner that manifest a 'Duck-Rabbit' scenario that is tainted with evil laden elements that end up influencing and inspiring SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.

As a comparison, note the main essential Buddhist or Jainist texts which may have possibly have 'Duck-Rabbit' scenario but it do not contain any leading evil laden elements to motivate any believers to commit evils in the name of their religion.

Quote:
Not if they are colour-blind! (Sorry mate, you have been caught again!)
My point is, it is established that part of the Quran [the evil laden elements] trigger SOME evil prone [color blind] Muslims to commit evil.
Since we cannot change color blindness, the most effective solution would be to get rid of the trigger, i.e. the evil laden elements in the Quran to prevent the evil prone [color blind] to be influenced by these evil laden elements.

Caught again? You are catching empty air.


Quote:
The only solution, in case of the Qur'an, is to understand the Qur'an in full and make sure that no verse is taken out of context and out of the context of the Qur'an.
You are not practicing good problem solving techniques and critical analysis.

Example;
Say there is mentally handicap teenager [someone's son or daughter] in a hall of a house.
There is an open heater to warm up the hall.
In this case there is a danger the teenager touching the heater and get burn.
In this case of avoiding the danger what would you do as the most effective?
1. Educate the mentally handicap of the danger.
2. Get rid of the open heater and replace it.

Surely a normal person would choose solution 2 rather than option 1 to educate the mentally handicap.

The above example is similar to our contention re the Quran.
As I had stated those who perceived 'Duck' in the verses of the Quran will permanently perceive 'Duck' because they are naturally born to see 'Duck.'
There are no option in the present circumstances to show them the outline of the 'Rabbit.'
Therefore the effective solution at the present is to get rid of the evil and violent part in the Quran.


Quote:
The Qur'an is a unique book. There is no other book that is explaining itself in full.
16:89 ... We have revealed the book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news to those who submit.

17:89 And certainly We have explained for people in this Qur'an every kind of similitude, but most people do not consent to aught but denying.

18:54 And certainly We have explained in this Qur'an every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.

As I had said, as a believer it is a default you must be bias and see nothing negative with your religion and its holy texts. Otherwise it will not work with the faith.

This is why I raised the 'thinking inside the box' thread to show that a believer can [actually should not] think outside the box. For Islam, whatever is outside the box of one's religion [Islam in your case] is generally evil.

No matter how the Quran explain itself, it can only explain itself within its own box and never the whole of reality with is outside the box.
Muslims: Thinking Outside the Box



Quote:
You may of course carry on in your contention! I am already aware of it.
I always ensure my views are objective, rational and I take into account all relevant perspectives including those of the believers, i.e. step into the shoes of the believers.

Unfortunately as a believer you have to ignore and shut off all other views relating to your own religion. As a believer by default you have to be subjective and emotionally bias to ensure your quest for salvation is secured.

Note the point by Farhan Qureshi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65O2mAZ8CHQ

Note 16:21: Qureshi mentioned he was in love with the emotional identity as a Muslim, the ummah, the culture thus he must ignore all negatives against Islam. He has to interpret and justify all negatives thrown at him in various ways [whatever way it takes*] even if it is not true

* the evil prone will resort to violence to shut up the critics.

Last edited by Continuum; 03-19-2016 at 09:38 PM..
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