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03-23-2016, 02:41 AM
 3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times Reputation: 289

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Continuum You have a problem with semantics here. Islam [of Quran] is 100% Muslim_ness. The recorded deeds of the individual Muslim in the Illiyin represented his degree of Muslim_ness. Let take 2 adults Muslims, A and B who have been proper-Muslims [ignoring childhood] for 50 years. The total expected prayers is 50 X 5 x 365 = 91,250. Assuming both A and B performed the prayer correctly. If A prayed 80,000 times, then his Muslim_ness in terms of prayers is 87.67%. If B prayed 50,000 times, then his Muslim_ness in terms of prayers is 57.80%. If we do the same computation for all the necessary variables [as required in the Quran], then we will get a rough idea of the person's Muslim_ness objectively. Obviously since Allah is all powerful and all-knowing, Allah will be able to do the precise computation of the Muslim's degree of Muslim_ness. Get it??
I think you still do not get it. In Illiyan, all the deeds of a Muslim, good and bad, are recorded. How can you regard even the bad deeds as "Muslim_ness"?

As for your example of number of prayers, it is not 87.67% or 57.80% Muslim_ness as every prayer is 100% Islam. Everytime I write Allah in this post, I remember Allah, which is better even than a prayer.

Each time I pray in the Grand MasjId, it is as if I have done 100,000 prayers. In Illiyan, that's 100% of my prayers sorted. You? Not even 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001% of prayers and, therefore, it won't be the Illiyan but in the Sijjin for you to read.

Quote:
 In the first place, holy texts should never include any element that is related to evil, e.g. permit fighting, killing, murder, martyrdom, mentioned of rape, slavery, us versus them division, etc. regardless of the human conditions. The Quran is guilty when it contains so much evil laden elements.
The Qur'an is a book of guidance to stop evil as well. Evil can't be stopped without mentioning evil. I can understand why you do not want any fight against evil of kuffar mentioned in it.

Quote:
 In the second place, if evil laden elements every exist they should be very specific and not vague to generate a DUCK-RABBIT scenario that induced the evil prone to commit terrible evils as sanctioned by God. The Quran is guilty of such as well.
God has sanctioned evil to stop evil. This is not sanctioning evil against good but againsg evil only. That is justice!

Quote:
 There are so many cases of evil prone [even good Muslims] who are led to kill another merely based on wrong perception.
Wrong perception is not the fault of the Qur'an but the ignorant ones. I don't kill anyone as nobody has tried to kill me. Next time I kill anyone, it would be only for one reason; the other was going to kill me so it was the only choice for me to live and not be killed.

Quote:
 Note ther case of an innocent woman who was killed and burnt by a Muslim mob who were 'convinced' she burn a Quran.Police in Afghanistan have arrested nine suspects after a mob beat a woman to death for allegedly burning a copy of the Quran and then set her body ablaze. Afghan mob kills woman for allegedly burning Quran - Al Jazeera English
They would not have been arrested if such killing was commanded in the Qur'an. The Qur'an was not sent in paper form but in sound form. It can't be burnt as it is also written in the hearts of the believers.

Quote:
 Most of the acts of the West in engagement with Muslims and Muslims Nations are seen by many Muslims as a threat to Islam. Because the Quran permit Muslims to fight infidels if there is a threat to Islam, many Muslims are brainwashed to be anti-West and kill infidels.
There was threat to Islam when the Qur'an was still being revealed in Madina. The threat, in reality, was not direct but indirect through threat of extinction of Muslims. Kuffar had tried very hard to destroy all Muslims and, therefore, Islam with them. I don't see any threat to Islam today. If anything, the perception today is the other way round. It is Islsm and Muslim that are perceived as threat to the rest today.

Quote:
 The fact and danger is, what Muhammad did for his personal interests were translated into generic principles in the Quran and is applicable to all Muslims.
Everything in the Qur'an applicable to Muslims was applicable to Muhammad but not everything applicable to Muhammad was applicable to Muslims at large.

Quote:
 Not all 100% Muslims will be influenced and inspired those evil laden verses. You as with any human being has evil potential, but you may not be that evil prone to commit evils merely upon reading the Quran in a normal situation or be influenced by any evil preacher.
This is so because there are no evil commanding verses in the Qur'an or else I too would be doing evil.

03-23-2016, 03:39 AM
 Location: Not-a-Theist 3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times Reputation: 461
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Khalif I think you still do not get it. In Illiyan, all the deeds of a Muslim, good and bad, are recorded. How can you regard even the bad deeds as "Muslim_ness"?
The concept of the Illiyin and Sijjin is very problematic and don't make much sense thus I don't take it too seriously.

Let say all the deeds of a Muslims are recorded in the Sijjin for 20 years then suddenly that person committed an unpardonable sin which should be recorded in the Illiyin.
Does this mean this person has two book?
The Quran do not mention a person having two books.

I would say if all the deeds are recorded in the Illiyin for a Muslim, then his results are netted off between the good deeds and the pardonable sins. Then the Muslim is rewarded based on his net results.

Quote:
 As for your example of number of prayers, it is not 87.67% or 57.80% Muslim_ness as every prayer is 100% Islam. Everytime I write Allah in this post, I remember Allah, which is better even than a prayer.
You don't seem to understand the seriousness of this objective presentation.
Note I purpose qualified A and B did their prayers correctly, i.e. 100% Islamic.
But if B perform only one prayer in his life while B perform 80,000 prayers do you mean they are equal in the eyes of Allah on Judgment Day.
Surely there is some sense of merit and justice here to make a relative comparions in terms of the Muslim-ness in relation to prayers.

Quote:
 Each time I pray in the Grand MasjId, it is as if I have done 100,000 prayers. In Illiyan, that's 100% of my prayers sorted. You? Not even 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001% of prayers and, therefore, it won't be the Illiyan but in the Sijjin for you to read.
In this case the comparison of the degree of Muslim_ness of a Muslims is the number of time s/he prayed in the Grand Masjid in his life time if that really matters.

Quote:
 The Qur'an is a book of guidance to stop evil as well. Evil can't be stopped without mentioning evil. I can understand why you do not want any fight against evil of kuffar mentioned in it. God has sanctioned evil to stop evil. This is not sanctioning evil against good but against evil only. That is justice!
This is why I claimed religions that introduced evil elements [eye for an eye, etc.] to counter evil are inferior to those religions that do not rely on evil elements.

Quote:
 Wrong perception is not the fault of the Qur'an but the ignorant ones. I don't kill anyone as nobody has tried to kill me. Next time I kill anyone, it would be only for one reason; the other was going to kill me so it was the only choice for me to live and not be killed.
As I had argued before there is no need for a religious texts to advise humans how to defend themselves. All humans has the naturally instincts to defend themselves or avoid the conflict. This is the famous 'fight or flight' instincts.

By including evil elements in a holy texts it generate DUCK-RABBIT scenarios which prompt some evil prone believers to commit terrible evils and violence.

"Wronged perception" is from the universal human perspective, but to the evil prone Muslims they are not perceiving it as 'wrong' but as right and permitted by Allah. To please Allah they have to obey Allah.
Another problem is YOU [and others] don't have the divine right to insist they are wrong.

Quote:
 They would not have been arrested if such killing was commanded in the Qur'an. The Qur'an was not sent in paper form but in sound form. It can't be burnt as it is also written in the hearts of the believers.
Say what you like.
The serious Muslims do not respect human laws. In the eyes of Islam and Allah what they [criminals] did was right and they are certain they will go to Paradise after they die.

Quote:
 There was threat to Islam when the Qur'an was still being revealed in Madina. The threat, in reality, was not direct but indirect through threat of extinction of Muslims. Kuffar had tried very hard to destroy all Muslims and, therefore, Islam with them. I don't see any threat to Islam today. If anything, the perception today is the other way round. It is Islam and Muslim that are perceived as threat to the rest today. Everything in the Qur'an applicable to Muslims was applicable to Muhammad but not everything applicable to Muhammad was applicable to Muslims at large. This is so because there are no evil commanding verses in the Qur'an or else I too would be doing evil.
Whatever is in the Quran is translated as generic principles for Muslims to adhere to where applicable. Who can question Allah's words in the Quran.
The general rule to Muslims is 'If Islam is threatened, fight and kill non-Muslims'.

While you may not see any threat, you cannot insist those 20% of naturally born with evil tendency will not see any threat.

Note the Talibans saw the Russians as a threat to Islam and Muslims in Afghanistan and they did the same to the Americans in Afghanistan and elsewhere. They wanted to kill Malala because her promotion of General Education was a threat to Islam. Basically the Quran [DUCK view] brainwashed Muslims to see any thing to do with non-Muslims as a threat.

The other message of the Quran [DUCK view] is world domination via terror and other means. This is why non-Muslims view Islam and Muslims as a threat in general because they do not know who is good and who are the evil ones. This threat is not a speculation but a reality as evidenced by the glaring terrors and killing of non-Muslims [and even other Muslims] that has been going on since Islam emerged 1400 years ago.

03-23-2016, 04:05 PM
 3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times Reputation: 289
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Continuum The concept of the Illiyin and Sijjin is very problematic and don't make much sense thus I don't take it too seriously.
You were the one who had mentioned Illiyan in this forum. I wouldn't have mentioned to you anything that you can't understand.

Quote:
 Let say all the deeds of a Muslims are recorded in the Sijjin for 20 years then suddenly that person committed an unpardonable sin which should be recorded in the Illiyin. Does this mean this person has two book? The Quran do not mention a person having two books.
Nor does the Qur'an mention deeds of a Muslim being recorded in the Sijjin!

Quote:
 You don't seem to understand the seriousness of this objective presentation. Note I purpose qualified A and B did their prayers correctly, i.e. 100% Islamic. But if B perform only one prayer in his life while B perform 80,000 prayers do you mean they are equal in the eyes of Allah on Judgment Day. Surely there is some sense of merit and justice here to make a relative comparions in terms of the Muslim-ness in relation to prayers.
It's not Muslim_ness but the number of deeds. You are mixing up the number of good deeds with Muslim_ness. Think of Muslim_ness as GOOD ACTION and salvation depending on the NUMBER of (good and bad) acions.

Quote:
 This is why I claimed religions that introduced evil elements [eye for an eye, etc.] to counter evil are inferior to those religions that do not rely on evil elements.
Such religions did not 'introduce' evil elements but tried to bring in justice to stop evil. Eye for an eye is justice to stop the evil done to your eye in the first place.

Quote:
 As I had argued before there is no need for a religious texts to advise humans how to defend themselves. All humans has the naturally instincts to defend themselves or avoid the conflict. This is the famous 'fight or flight' instincts.
Human instinct does not have inbuilt rules of engagement. In a religious text, like the Qur'an, there is inbuilt rules of engagement.

Quote:
 By including evil elements in a holy texts it generate DUCK-RABBIT scenarios which prompt some evil prone believers to commit terrible evils and violence.
There is no way to change someone's mind if he should insists it is generating evil ducks only.

Quote:
 "Wronged perception" is from the universal human perspective, but to the evil prone Muslims they are not perceiving it as 'wrong' but as right and permitted by Allah. To please Allah they have to obey Allah. Another problem is YOU [and others] don't have the divine right to insist they are wrong.
In that case, YOU have no right to demand from peaceful Muslims that they condemn the actions of the evll prone at the same time as YOU insist that they can't say they are wrong.

Quote:
 The serious Muslims do not respect human laws.
False! Infidels don't respect Shariah law.

Quote:
 In the eyes of Islam and Allah what they [criminals] did was right and they are certain they will go to Paradise after they die.
May be in their eyes and brains but I don't think any criminal is right in the sight of Allah from what I understand from the Qur'an.

Quote:
 Whatever is in the Quran is translated as generic principles for Muslims to adhere to where applicable. Who can question Allah's words in the Quran. The general rule to Muslims is 'If Islam is threatened, fight and kill non-Muslims'.
Not for me!
For me, Islam is never going to be threatened unless Muslims are to become an extinct group. There is no likelihood of that happening for a long time.

Quote:
 While you may not see any threat, you cannot insist those 20% of naturally born with evil tendency will not see any threat.
I insist that even they do not see any threat to Islam or else they won't leave Islam unprotected without them.

Quote:
 Note the Talibans saw the Russians as a threat to Islam and Muslims in Afghanistan and they did the same to the Americans in Afghanistan and elsewhere. They wanted to kill Malala because her promotion of General Education was a threat to Islam. Basically the Quran [DUCK view] brainwashed Muslims to see any thing to do with non-Muslims as a threat.
You haven't a clue as to why Taliban did all that.

Quote:
 The other message of the Quran [DUCK view] is world domination via terror and other means. This is why non-Muslims view Islam and Muslims as a threat in general because they do not know who is good and who are the evil ones. This threat is not a speculation but a reality as evidenced by the glaring terrors and killing of non-Muslims [and even other Muslims] that has been going on since Islam emerged 1400 years ago.
If you keep blaming all Muslims (because you don't trust any), you are not going to find the root cause of evil in this world for another 1400 years. On the other hand, you might find it quite soon in the hereafter if you get there quick enough.

03-23-2016, 11:06 PM
 Location: Not-a-Theist 3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times Reputation: 461
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Khalif You were the one who had mentioned Illiyan in this forum. I wouldn't have mentioned to you anything that you can't understand. Nor does the Qur'an mention deeds of a Muslim being recorded in the Sijjin!
It is not that I don't understand the Illiyin. It is very basic but the Quran presented confusions in relation to the book of records.

The Quran did mention the deeds are recorded in the Sijjin.
83:7. Nay, but the record of the vile [infidels] is in Sijjin
83:8 Ah! what will convey unto thee [infidels] what Sijjin is!
83:9. A written record.

58:6. On the Day when Allah will raise them [infidels re v5 and others] all together and inform them [infidels] of what they did. Allah hath kept account [in the Sijjin] of it while they [infidel] forgot it. And Allah is Witness over all things.
Quote:
 It's not Muslim_ness but the number of deeds. You are mixing up the number of good deeds with Muslim_ness. Think of Muslim_ness as GOOD ACTION and salvation depending on the NUMBER of (good and bad) acions.
This is a case of getting the semantic right.
I defined "Muslim_ness" by the number of deeds done.
You described is a 'Good Action'.

My interests is the number of good deeds [including pardonable sins] done by a Muslims over his life time on Earth. I label this element as ''Muslim_ness". If you don't like it give me a 'name' that fit this description.

Quote:
 Such religions did not 'introduce' evil elements but tried to bring in justice to stop evil. Eye for an eye is justice to stop the evil done to your eye in the first place.
You don't seem to understand this phrase 'eye for an eye' which meant a retaliation of equivalent violence.
As I have stated, a good matured religion with a compassionate God will never introduce such barbaric methods in their holy texts.

Quote:
 Human instinct does not have inbuilt rules of engagement. In a religious text, like the Qur'an, there is inbuilt rules of engagement.
As I have stated above, a good matured religion with a compassionate God will never introduce such barbaric methods in their holy texts even with rules of engagement.
Human beings are capable of establishing rules of engagements that is dynamic with changes in reality. The rules of engagement in the Quran are crude and barbaric which were relevant for the 7th century which cannot be changed to suit real changes in reality because God's words are immutable.

Quote:
 There is no way to change someone's mind if he should insists it is generating evil ducks only.
That is my main point.
Because 20% are naturally born to perceive DUCK elements [to them is the right thing to do because it is God's command] a good religion will ensure there are no possibility of 'DUCK' elements at all to trigger the evil prone to commit evil and violence.
This is a case of prevention/avoidance is better than cure.

Quote:
 In that case, YOU have no right to demand from peaceful Muslims that they condemn the actions of the evll prone at the same time as YOU insist that they can't say they are wrong.
We should condemned the actions of the evil prone but we need to understand the reality they are born with such tendencies, thus we should not blame them.
We should focus our attention on the triggering stimuli that cause them to commit evils and violence, i.e. the evil and violence elements in the Quran.
I have stated many time I condemned the actions but I don't blame the evil prone Muslims or any Muslims.

Quote:
 False! Infidels don't respect Shariah law.
Where is your proof it is false.
True Muslims will not respect human laws except those specified in the Quran by Allah.
It is obviously infidels will not respect Shariah Law because they have nothing to do with it.

Quote:
 May be in their eyes and brains but I don't think any criminal is right in the sight of Allah from what I understand from the Qur'an.
Point is you don't have any divine right to Judge others on behalf of Allah based on your understanding of the Quran which may be wrong.

You need to note those Muslims who had committed evil [from the perspective of universal human values] will not dare to disobey the command of Allah. They will act on what Allah said in the Quran [or Ahadith] sincerely believing they are doing right with confidence they will go to Paradise.

Quote:
 Not for me! For me, Islam is never going to be threatened unless Muslims are to become an extinct group. There is no likelihood of that happening for a long time.
Again you need to note there is a wide range to the meaning of "threatened."
It is obvious the threat of extinction is without doubt a real threat.
However there are very subtle acts that are construed as being threatened. Note the Quran sanctioned the fighting [killing of] against infidels if Islam and Muslims are wronged, there is mischiefs, corruptions and other negatives to Islam.

Quote:
 I insist that even they do not see any threat to Islam or else they won't leave Islam unprotected without them.
Note many evil prone Muslims has been quoting from the Quran to justify their evil and violent acts against the infidels.
Here is one example from Bin Laden's Letter to America;
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America' | World news | The Guardian

Quote:
 You haven't a clue as to why Taliban did all that.
I have given my views. Now you justify why I am wrong and what is your explanation and justifications.

Quote:
 If you keep blaming all Muslims (because you don't trust any), you are not going to find the root cause of evil in this world for another 1400 years. On the other hand, you might find it quite soon in the hereafter if you get there quick enough.
Note I have mentioned many times I DO NOT blame the 20% of evil prone Muslims because they are naturally and unfortunately born with a tendency to commit evil and violence.
When Muslims commit terrible evils we have to condemn the acts [e.g. the recent Brussel's terror] but we don't jump to conclusion to blame the naturally born evil prone Muslims, rather we should focus on the ultimate effective root causes, i.e. the evil laden elements in the Quran and ethos of Islam.

Quote:
 On the other hand, you might find it quite soon in the hereafter if you get there quick enough.
I am aware you believe illusions to be true because you don't have a high capacity for rational thinking.

03-24-2016, 03:15 PM
 3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times Reputation: 289
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Continuum It is not that I don't understand the Illiyin. It is very basic but the Quran presented confusions in relation to the book of records. The Quran did mention the deeds are recorded in the Sijjin. 83:7. Nay, but the record of the vile [infidels] is in Sijjin 83:8 Ah! what will convey unto thee [infidels] what Sijjin is! 83:9. A written record. 58:6. On the Day when Allah will raise them [infidels re v5 and others] all together and inform them [infidels] of what they did. Allah hath kept account [in the Sijjin] of it while they [infidel] forgot it. And Allah is Witness over all things.
You had mentioned Muslims' deeds recorded in Sijjin. Go back and read your statement in your post.

Quote:
 This is a case of getting the semantic right. I defined "Muslim_ness" by the number of deeds done. You described is a 'Good Action'. My interests is the number of good deeds [including pardonable sins] done by a Muslims over his life time on Earth. I label this element as ''Muslim_ness". If you don't like it give me a 'name' that fit this description.
It seems as if you are confused in looking for a term for something in your mind. Are you looking for a term for 'submitting'?

Quote:
 You don't seem to understand this phrase 'eye for an eye' which meant a retaliation of equivalent violence.
It means equivalent justice to stop the same violence in future. Islam is a middle way. In Islam, neither eye for an eye nor turning the other cheek is a must in every case. These are two extremes. There is a middle way too in Islam. Do you know the middle way?

Quote:
 As I have stated, a good matured religion with a compassionate God will never introduce such barbaric methods in their holy texts.
Man was created (a) in God's image and (b) as His viceroy, khalif and deputy on earth. If God is compassionate then why should a human being not be compassionate when he has been given the potential to be compassionate?

IF a silly little human can be so violent, despite God giving him warnings not to do evil even though he has the ability and potential to be compassionate, then one of the ways to stop his violence is to give him taste of his own medicine. Please note that this is not the only way to stop him. Yes, God is not always compassionate but can be very tough and strong in administering man's own medicine in order to let him taste the fruits of his own works. I say, why not? What has man done to deserve compassion from God all the time?

Quote:
 As I have stated above, a good matured religion with a compassionate God will never introduce such barbaric methods in their holy texts even with rules of engagement.
These "barbaric methods" are not the creation of God but of humans. They should not get involved in such methods but be in the image of God who they expect to be compassionate.

Quote:
 Human beings are capable of establishing rules of engagements that is dynamic with changes in reality. The rules of engagement in the Quran are crude and barbaric which were relevant for the 7th century which cannot be changed to suit real changes in reality because God's words are immutable.
Do you understand what I meant by "rules of engagement"? There are not only rules of engagement but limits set a well in the Qur'an such as eye for an eye but not two eyes for one eye.

Quote:
 That is my main point. Because 20% are naturally born to perceive DUCK elements [to them is the right thing to do because it is God's command] a good religion will ensure there are no possibility of 'DUCK' elements at all to trigger the evil prone to commit evil and violence. This is a case of prevention/avoidance is better than cure.
They are not "naturally" born to perceive only duck. They are naturally born to understand your rabbit as well. Most of them see none.

Quote:
 We should condemned the actions of the evil prone but we need to understand the reality they are born with such tendencies, thus we should not blame them.
I am not going to buy such a silly idea. It is neither their birth defect nor the influence of the Qur'an but several other factors that you haven't a clue about.

Quote:
 We should focus our attention on the triggering stimuli that cause them to commit evils and violence, i.e. the evil and violence elements in the Quran.
That won't lead you to the solution. The root cause is somewhere else.

Quote:
 I have stated many time I condemned the actions but I don't blame the evil prone Muslims or any Muslims.
There are many who not only blame such "evil prone" but all Muslims. Once you begin to blame the Qur'an, you blame all Muslims for following the guidance in it. Others just blame Muslims regardless.

Quote:
 True Muslims will not respect human laws except those specified in the Quran by Allah. It is obviously infidels will not respect Shariah Law because they have nothing to do with it.
True Muslims will respect the human laws whether in a Muslim country or in another country. I have always respected the laws of the country I have been living in. For this reason, true Muslims are a step in front of those who say, we have nothing to do with Shariah law.

Quote:
 You need to note those Muslims who had committed evil [from the perspective of universal human values] will not dare to disobey the command of Allah. They will act on what Allah said in the Quran [or Ahadith] sincerely believing they are doing right with confidence they will go to Paradise.
And if they have disobeyed God? Suicide is unpardonable sin in Islam.

Quote:
 Again you need to note there is a wide range to the meaning of "threatened." It is obvious the threat of extinction is without doubt a real threat. However there are very subtle acts that are construed as being threatened. Note the Quran sanctioned the fighting [killing of] against infidels if Islam and Muslims are wronged, there is mischiefs, corruptions and other negatives to Islam.
The only threat to Muslims and Islam whilist the Qur'an was being revealed was from Meccans who were waging wars on Muslims because of their religion. Once that threat was no more, there was no more threat from anyone else. Muhammad did ask the Meccans as to what they expect from him, and they asked for forgiveness. So he forgave them instead of killing them. So if no threat of extinction, no killings.

03-25-2016, 02:54 AM
 Location: Not-a-Theist 3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times Reputation: 461
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Khalif You had mentioned Muslims' deeds recorded in Sijjin. Go back and read your statement in your post.
I don't get your point. If you are serious on this, show me your justifications.

Quote:
 It seems as if you are confused in looking for a term for something in your mind. Are you looking for a term for 'submitting'?
Nah, not submitting.

Here is some points re "Muslimness"

The quality or fact of being Muslim.
Muslimness - definition of Muslimness in English from the Oxford dictionary

The meaning of the suffix "ness"
a native English suffix attached to adjectives and participles, forming abstract nouns denoting quality and state (and often, by extension, something exemplifying a quality or state):
-ness | Define -ness at Dictionary.com

Thus "Muslimness" would refer to the quality of being a Muslim.
A quality of being Muslim_ness can only be decided by Allah.
What is expected and decided of Allah is with reference to the Quran and no where else.

Therefore the degree of a Muslim compliance with the terms and conditions within the 6,236 verses will determine the Muslim_ness of a Muslim.

Get it? or you still do not get what I have intended to convey?

Quote:
 It means equivalent justice to stop the same violence in future. Islam is a middle way. In Islam, neither eye for an eye nor turning the other cheek is a must in every case. These are two extremes. There is a middle way too in Islam. Do you know the middle way?
You are putting your own spin to it when you add 'to stop the same violence in future'.
The main purpose of an eye for an eye is to seek revenge, retribution and not as a deterrent.

Middle Way?
2:143 is often touted as Islam representing the middle way but that [middle nation] is not middle way but a middle location.
17:110 may be more appropriate to imply the middle way.
17:110 [part] And thou (Muhammad), be not loud voiced in thy worship nor yet silent therein, but follow a way between.
I don't sense Islam is serious enough to claim itself as a Middle-Way.
For Islam is 'My Way or the Highway to Hell'.

The religion that is truly the Middle-Way is Buddhism which explicitly claim itself to be the Middle-Way and support it with extensive doctrine to explain it.

Quote:
 Man was created (a) in God's image and (b) as His viceroy, khalif and deputy on earth. If God is compassionate then why should a human being not be compassionate when he has been given the potential to be compassionate?
Man was created to worship Allah.
Only Adam and some specific humans were created to be viceroy, messengers and prophets.
If you have read the Quran more than 50 times, the net resultant is Allah is not a compassionate God with all the tons of condemnations against the infidels.

Quote:
 IF a silly little human can be so violent, despite God giving him warnings not to do evil even though he has the ability and potential to be compassionate, then one of the ways to stop his violence is to give him taste of his own medicine. Please note that this is not the only way to stop him. Yes, God is not always compassionate but can be very tough and strong in administering man's own medicine in order to let him taste the fruits of his own works. I say, why not? What has man done to deserve compassion from God all the time?
All humans has the potential to be evil but only SOME humans has the endowed potential to be compassionate.
If God is supposed to be all powerful, he could have created all humans to be peaceful regardless of whatever is the situations. Fact is God do not exists thus humans are left to be natural and 20% are evil prone.

The fact is humans are evolving to be better humans. This is proven by the improvements of humans since the last 500 years to now. At present there is a banned on slavery [this is not banned by religion]. Humanity is improving in many aspects without any help from God, e.g. racism, lesser wars, lesser barbaric practices [still in Islam], co-operation in Space exploration, global warming, super advances in Science and technology [no God involved] etc.

What is needed is for humanity to progress more expeditiously and accelerate greater improvements [no need for the help of any God - an impediment to progress actually].

Quote:
 These "barbaric methods" are not the creation of God but of humans. They should not get involved in such methods but be in the image of God who they expect to be compassionate.
It is obvious the 'barbaric methods" are in the Quran, e.g. flogging for adultery, eye for an eye, marrying 4 wives, marry adopted son's wife, condoning of fighting and killing, ransom, etc.

Quote:
 Do you understand what I meant by "rules of engagement"? There are not only rules of engagement but limits set a well in the Qur'an such as eye for an eye but not two eyes for one eye.
Regardless of your meaning, war in fundamentally the most immoral thing and should never be included in the holy text of any religion.

Quote:
 They are not "naturally" born to perceive only duck. They are naturally born to understand your rabbit as well. Most of them see none.
You are mixing all the they in one basket.
Out of 100% humans, 80% are naturally born to perceive 'Rabbits' and 20% -Ducks.
It is like being born color blind, there is no cure at present to cure them.

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 I am not going to buy such a silly idea. It is neither their birth defect nor the influence of the Qur'an but several other factors that you haven't a clue about.
It is not a birth defect in this case. It is just a percentage are born that way, like being born short or tall.
Obviously there are many other factors, but what I have presented are the CRITICAL factors.
Efficient problem solving entail focusing more on the critical factors.

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 That won't lead you to the solution. The root cause is somewhere else.
This is your typical response because of your natural blindness to the fact in such a situation.

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 There are many who not only blame such "evil prone" but all Muslims. Once you begin to blame the Qur'an, you blame all Muslims for following the guidance in it. Others just blame Muslims regardless.
Not me.
Blaming Hitler and the main kempf did not mean blaming ALL Germans.
I accept there are other who will blame ALL Muslims but I do not agree with them and generalization is bad logic. They should be educated to the correct thinking on this.

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 True Muslims will respect the human laws whether in a Muslim country or in another country. I have always respected the laws of the country I have been living in. For this reason, true Muslims are a step in front of those who say, we have nothing to do with Shariah law.
Good human beings will respect good laws wherever they are.
I agree you [Quran-Only] are a better Muslim, i.e. has higher Muslim_ness than those who cling to Shariah Law as if like no tomorrow.
A truer Muslims is one with a higher degree of Muslim_ness who had complied in greater degree with the words of Allah in the Quran.
Whether a truer Muslim is a better and progressive human being is debatable.

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 And if they have disobeyed God? Suicide is unpardonable sin in Islam.
Obviously if they have disobeyed God's words, then they have committed sins and will be punished accordingly.
For those who sacrifice themselves for martyrdom, they are acting in accordance to the words of Allah, so there is no question of suicide in this case.

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 The only threat to Muslims and Islam whilst the Qur'an was being revealed was from Meccans who were waging wars on Muslims because of their religion. Once that threat was no more, there was no more threat from anyone else. Muhammad did ask the Meccans as to what they expect from him, and they asked for forgiveness. So he forgave them instead of killing them. So if no threat of extinction, no killings.
This is only an opinion of yours.

One of the principle of threat is all potential threats must be nipped in the bud before it get too late. This is a natural response of SOME evil prone Muslims.
Many Muslims [from the pool of 300 million evil prone] view the activities of non-Muslims in Islamic land and elsewhere as a threat [warning from Allah in the Quran] and they response to it accordingly [as condoned in the Quran].

The average IQ of humanity is say [a guess] 100 at present. The average wisdom quotient [WQ] is say 50. When the average IQ and WQ increase to 200 and 120 in say 100 years time, it will definitely be a threat to Islam and all other religions. This is a potential to be factual.
This is why Boko Haram and Taliban are against good human education and view it as a threat. They intuitively know the barbaric elements of in the Quran and Ahadith cannot cope with the advancement of facts.
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