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Old 03-19-2016, 12:27 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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In the Quran, Allah ordained the degree of a Muslim's compliance with the terms and conditions in the Quran will determine his degree of Muslim_ness as recorded in his personal Illiyin.
A Muslim will be rewarded accordingly to his degree of Muslim_ness on Judgment Day.



Here are some verses to support my point; in [] =mine
3:163 There are degrees (of grace and reprobation) with Allah, and Allah is Seer of what they do.

4:66. And if We [Allah] had decreed [commanded] for them [Muslims]: Lay down your lives or go forth from your dwellings, but few of them [the truer Muslims] would have done it; though if they [casual Muslims] did what they are exhorted to do it would be better for them, and more strengthening;

4:96 degrees of rank from Him, and forgiveness and mercy. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

6:132 For all [of mankind] there will be ranks [degrees] from what they did Thy Lord is not unaware of what they [infidels] do.

8:4 Those [Muslims] are they who are in truth believers. For them [Muslims] are grades [degrees] (of honour) with their Lord, and pardon, and a bountiful provision.

57:10. And what aileth you [infidels] that ye spend not in the way of Allah, when unto Allah belongeth the inheritance of the heavens and the earth? Those [First Class Muslims -see 56:10]who spent and fought before the victory are [higher &] not upon a level (with the rest of you). Such [Muslims] are greater in rank than those [2nd class Muslims, on the Right Hand] who spent and fought afterwards. Unto each [Muslim] hath Allah promised good. And Allah is Informed of what ye do.

58:11. O ye [Muslims] who believe! When it is said, Make room! in assemblies, then make room; Allah will make way for you [Muslims] (hereafter). And when it is said, Come up higher! go up higher; Allah will exalt those [Muslims] who believe among you, and those [Muslims] who have knowledge, to high ranks. Allah is informed of what ye do.
There are many other verses beside the above to support the OP.

Do you agree there are Degrees of Muslim_ness?
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Old 03-21-2016, 03:52 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
In the Quran, Allah ordained the degree of a Muslim's compliance with the terms and conditions in the Quran will determine his degree of Muslim_ness as recorded in his personal Illiyin.
A Muslim will be rewarded accordingly to his degree of Muslim_ness on Judgment Day.



Here are some verses to support my point; in [] =mine
3:163 There are degrees (of grace and reprobation) with Allah, and Allah is Seer of what they do.

4:66. And if We [Allah] had decreed [commanded] for them [Muslims]: Lay down your lives or go forth from your dwellings, but few of them [the truer Muslims] would have done it; though if they [casual Muslims] did what they are exhorted to do it would be better for them, and more strengthening;

4:96 degrees of rank from Him, and forgiveness and mercy. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
K
6:132 For all [of mankind] there will be ranks [degrees] from what they did Thy Lord is not unaware of what they [infidels] do.

8:4 Those [Muslims] are they who are in truth believers. For them [Muslims] are grades [degrees] (of honour) with their Lord, and pardon, and a bountiful provision.

57:10. And what aileth you [infidels] that ye spend not in the way of Allah, when unto Allah belongeth the inheritance of the heavens and the earth? Those [First Class Muslims -see 56:10]who spent and fought before the victory are [higher &] not upon a level (with the rest of you). Such [Muslims] are greater in rank than those [2nd class Muslims, on the Right Hand] who spent and fought afterwards. Unto each [Muslim] hath Allah promised good. And Allah is Informed of what ye do.

58:11. O ye [Muslims] who believe! When it is said, Make room! in assemblies, then make room; Allah will make way for you [Muslims] (hereafter). And when it is said, Come up higher! go up higher; Allah will exalt those [Muslims] who believe among you, and those [Muslims] who have knowledge, to high ranks. Allah is informed of what ye do.
There are many other verses beside the above to support the OP.

Do you agree there are Degrees of Muslim_ness?
No.

You misunderstand.

The degrees or ranks mentioned in the verses are not about "Muslimness" but about a person's station or status in the sight of Allah. Even the unbelievers have their station and status in the sight of Allah.
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Old 03-21-2016, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No.

You misunderstand.

The degrees or ranks mentioned in the verses are not about "Muslimness" but about a person's station or status in the sight of Allah. Even the unbelievers have their station and status in the sight of Allah.
What else is 'a person's station' in the assessment of Allah other than his degree of Muslim_ness.

Other than by cheating, devious means, cronyism and the likes, the 'station' [rank, status, grade] of a person is generally awarded based on merits of his performance in his related duty.
Because Allah is supposed to be fair, a Muslim will be rated based on his actual performance [best ability].

Degree of Muslim_ness meant how good as Muslim is the person.
How good as a Muslim will depend on the Muslim's performance as a Muslim on Earth.
The Muslim's performance is measured by how well he had complied with the terms and conditions of the covenant he has 'signed' [agreed, consented] with Allah relative to his best ability.
Note the Muslim's performance is recorded in his book, the Illiyin.

It is obvious from the Quran, unbelievers has their station or status. They are condemned as if like a piece of sh:t and are destined to eternal hell fire. This is off topic which is about Muslim_ness not about the condemned unbelievers.
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Old 03-21-2016, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Being Muslim is somewhat similar to pregnancy. One either is or isn't. We all have equal opportunities to earn rewards. Some will do so others wont, but that does not affect their "Muslimness" all Muslims are equal.

It is similar to the concept of "Equal pay for equal work". There is no competition among us. Our only competition is within our self. Are we performing Islam to the best of our ability? That is under our own control and what any other Muslim does has no bearing on that.
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Old 03-22-2016, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Being Muslim is somewhat similar to pregnancy. One either is or isn't. We all have equal opportunities to earn rewards. Some will do so others wont, but that does not affect their "Muslimness" all Muslims are equal.

It is similar to the concept of "Equal pay for equal work". There is no competition among us. Our only competition is within our self. Are we performing Islam to the best of our ability? That is under our own control and what any other Muslim does has no bearing on that.
I presume you meant pregnant by legal means based on a marriage contract.
Even with any pregnancy there are degrees to it and in terms of many perspectives, e.g. term of pregnancy, the development of the fetus and potential baby.
If the mother is not performing* as a good pregnant mother there will be a difference in the degree of development [physical and mental health] of the fetus and the baby.
* e.g. taking care of her health, relevant nutrition, exercise, control stress levels, etc.
Therefore in terms of pregnant, one is pregnant or one is not, BUT there are degrees in many perspective to the concept of pregnancy.

Similar one is either a Muslim or not a Muslim.
All Muslims are equal as a Muslim basically as far at they are not sent to Hell, but there is no equality when it comes to rewards in Paradise.
Muslims of different ranks are accorded different degrees of reward in Paradise in relation to their performance on Earth. One will reap what one had sowed on Earth.

Note [we have discussed this point before] there are many verses in the Quran where Allah exhort Muslims to compete and vie with one another to be accorded greater rewards in Paradise. E.g.
2:148 And each one hath a goal toward which he turneth; so vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever ye may be, Allah will bring you all together. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. These are of the righteous.

3:200. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Endure, outdo all others in endurance, be ready, and observe your duty to Allah, in order that ye [Muslims] may succeed.
5:48 [part] So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

23:61 These race for the good things, and they shall win them in the race.

56:10 And the foremost in the race, the foremost in the race:
56:11. Those are they [1st class Muslims] who will be brought nigh
Note there are many other verses related to the above where Allah exhort Muslims to compete with one another to gain greater favor from Allah on Judgment Day.
17:21. See how We [Allah] prefer one above another [Muslim], and verily the Hereafter will be greater in degrees and greater in preferment.
In reality, I believe it was Muhammad who authored the above by exhorting Muslims to compete with each other which will benefit him and his ability to control his followers.
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What else is 'a person's station' in the assessment of Allah other than his degree of Muslim_ness.

Degree of Muslim_ness meant how good as Muslim is the person.
Which simply means how good is the person.
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Old 03-22-2016, 02:10 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I presume you meant pregnant by legal means based on a marriage contract.
Even with any pregnancy there are degrees to it and in terms of many perspectives, e.g. term of pregnancy, the development of the fetus and potential baby.
If the mother is not performing* as a good pregnant mother there will be a difference in the degree of development [physical and mental health] of the fetus and the baby.
* e.g. taking care of her health, relevant nutrition, exercise, control stress levels, etc.
Therefore in terms of pregnant, one is pregnant or one is not, BUT there are degrees in many perspective to the concept of pregnancy.

Similar one is either a Muslim or not a Muslim.
All Muslims are equal as a Muslim basically as far at they are not sent to Hell, but there is no equality when it comes to rewards in Paradise.
Muslims of different ranks are accorded different degrees of reward in Paradise in relation to their performance on Earth. One will reap what one had sowed on Earth.

Note [we have discussed this point before] there are many verses in the Quran where Allah exhort Muslims to compete and vie with one another to be accorded greater rewards in Paradise. E.g.
2:148 And each one hath a goal toward which he turneth; so vie with one another in good works. Wheresoever ye may be, Allah will bring you all together. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. These are of the righteous.

3:200. O ye [Muslims] who believe! Endure, outdo all others in endurance, be ready, and observe your duty to Allah, in order that ye [Muslims] may succeed.
5:48 [part] So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

23:61 These race for the good things, and they shall win them in the race.

56:10 And the foremost in the race, the foremost in the race:
56:11. Those are they [1st class Muslims] who will be brought nigh
Note there are many other verses related to the above where Allah exhort Muslims to compete with one another to gain greater favor from Allah on Judgment Day.
17:21. See how We [Allah] prefer one above another [Muslim], and verily the Hereafter will be greater in degrees and greater in preferment.
Most of these verses are to do with in a race to do good works between groups; who have been given various acts of devotion (Jews, Christians, Muslims etc). The other verses are to do with achievement as an individual.

Quote:
In reality, I believe it was Muhammad who authored the above by exhorting Muslims to compete with each other which will benefit him and his ability to control his followers.
This is senseless belief. What benefit is it to Muhammad to control me 1400 years after he walked on this earth?
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Old 03-22-2016, 02:32 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Most of these verses are to do with in a race to do good works between groups; who have been given various acts of devotion (Jews, Christians, Muslims etc). The other verses are to do with achievement as an individual.
This OP refer only to Muslims.
The point is Allah do consider the relative merits and 'Muslim_ness' of each individual Muslim on Judgment Day as recorded in his/her book [Illiyin].

This spur zealousness in those who are evil prone to stretch their zeal to commit terrible evils and violence to please Allah and hoping to gain greater favor.

Quote:
This is senseless belief. What benefit is it to Muhammad to control me 1400 years after he walked on this earth?
I was referring to the reality at the time Muhammad recited these verses in 610-632AD which was to serve his purpose then, i.e. influence Muslims to strive for his cause with their wealth and lives.
Such verses serving his personal interests are similar to the verses referring to marrying the wife of his adopted son, rebuking those who spread scandals related to his wife, his affair with the Coptic slave and his angry wives.

Muhammad got what he wanted then but obviously Muhammad was not thinking about 2016. However the historical fact is many [rulers and leaders] have relied on these verses to exploit Muslims since then till now.
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Old 03-22-2016, 07:51 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,035,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This OP refer only to Muslims.
But not all the verses you had quoted!

Quote:
The point is Allah do consider the relative merits and 'Muslim_ness' of each individual Muslim on Judgment Day as recorded in his/her book [Illiyin].
Muslim_ness is Islam. Illiyan is not Muslim_ness but a book of deeds.

Quote:
This spur zealousness in those who are evil prone to stretch their zeal to commit terrible evils and violence to please Allah and hoping to gain greater favor.
No favour in doing evil. The Qur'an is clear on that. Any evil to combat evil is not evil but justice. If there is no evil from the opposite side then doing evil is certafinly evil act.

Quote:
I was referring to the reality at the time Muhammad recited these verses in 610-632AD which was to serve his purpose then, i.e. influence Muslims to strive for his cause with their wealth and lives.
Such verses serving his personal interests are similar to the verses referring to marrying the wife of his adopted son, rebuking those who spread scandals related to his wife, his affair with the Coptic slave and his angry wives.
None of what you are writing here helps to control us. I have no adopted son. There is no scandal related to my wife, and I have no Copti slave to get married to that my wife may be unhappy about it..

Quote:
Muhammad got what he wanted then but obviously Muhammad was not thinking about 2016. However the historical fact is many [rulers and leaders] have relied on these verses to exploit Muslims since then till now.
And so are the terorists relying on these verses to recruit more terrorists I suppose. Funny they have never tried to recruit me even though I am evil prone and don't even need a bomb to kill someone.
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:09 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Muslim_ness is Islam. Illiyan is not Muslim_ness but a book of deeds.
You have a problem with semantics here.

Islam [of Quran] is 100% Muslim_ness.
The recorded deeds of the individual Muslim in the Illiyin represented his degree of Muslim_ness.

Let take 2 adults Muslims, A and B who have been proper-Muslims [ignoring childhood] for 50 years.
The total expected prayers is 50 X 5 x 365 = 91,250.
Assuming both A and B performed the prayer correctly.
If A prayed 80,000 times, then his Muslim_ness in terms of prayers is 87.67%.
If B prayed 50,000 times, then his Muslim_ness in terms of prayers is 57.80%.

If we do the same computation for all the necessary variables [as required in the Quran], then we will get a rough idea of the person's Muslim_ness objectively.

Obviously since Allah is all powerful and all-knowing, Allah will be able to do the precise computation of the Muslim's degree of Muslim_ness.

Get it??

Quote:
No favour in doing evil. The Qur'an is clear on that. Any evil to combat evil is not evil but justice. If there is no evil from the opposite side then doing evil is certafinly evil act.
Again you are very ignorant of human nature and human psychology.

In the first place, holy texts should never include any element that is related to evil, e.g. permit fighting, killing, murder, martyrdom, mentioned of rape, slavery, us versus them division, etc. regardless of the human conditions. The Quran is guilty when it contains so much evil laden elements.

In the second place, if evil laden elements every exist they should be very specific and not vague to generate a DUCK-RABBIT scenario that induced the evil prone to commit terrible evils as sanctioned by God. The Quran is guilty of such as well.

In human psychology there is the VERY common problem of acting upon misperception.
There is the problem of the other side did not commit any evil but the evil prone perceive [DUCK] the other side committed evil and spontaneously response in evil ways, kill, murder, rapes, etc.

There are so many cases of evil prone [even good Muslims] who are led to kill another merely based on wrong perception.
Note the case of an innocent woman who was killed and burnt by a Muslim mob who were 'convinced' she burn a Quran.
Police in Afghanistan have arrested nine suspects after a mob beat a woman to death for allegedly burning a copy of the Quran and then set her body ablaze.
Afghan mob kills woman for allegedly burning Quran - Al Jazeera English
Most of the acts of the West in engagement with Muslims and Muslims Nations are seen by many Muslims as a threat to Islam.
Because the Quran permit Muslims to fight infidels if there is a threat to Islam, many Muslims are brainwashed to be anti-West and kill infidels.

Quote:
None of what you are writing here helps to control us. I have no adopted son. There is no scandal related to my wife, and I have no Copti slave to get married to that my wife may be unhappy about it..
I did not refer to any "control" in this case. That is another case not this one.
What I stated was the Quran was authored by Muhammad to serve his personal interests and I gave a few examples.

Quote:
And so are the terrorists relying on these verses to recruit more terrorists I suppose. Funny they have never tried to recruit me even though I am evil prone and don't even need a bomb to kill someone.
The fact and danger is, what Muhammad did for his personal interests were translated into generic principles in the Quran and is applicable to all Muslims.

Not all 100% Muslims will be influenced and inspired those evil laden verses. But when there are 20% of Muslims who are naturally born to have evil tendency, that is a pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims who are ever ready [itchy] to commit evil and violence.
This is why we have so many Muslim terrorists and evil prone committing terrible violence and a range of evils around the world.

You as with any human being has evil potential, but you may not be that evil prone to commit evils merely upon reading the Quran in a normal situation or be influenced by any evil preacher.
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