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Old 03-22-2016, 02:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have no issue with one's being responsible for one's deen.
I don't believe you understand what 'deen' really meant within the whole of reality.
I have discussed this in another thread somewhere.

There is the individual's deen and there is the deen of reality where both need to be aligned accordingly.
As in a perfect marching parade, the individual's deen is like the individual's soldier potential to march in perfect alignment and synchrony with the whole group.

Your point is not logically and realistic.

In reality, there was already terrible evils and violence even before Hitler came into the picture.
It was Hitler and his evil personality and his evil ideology as in the Main Kempf that influenced and inspired SOME evil prone Germans to start WW II and killed millions in the most horrendous evil ways.
It is logically obvious, Hitler and his evil ideology [in the Main Kempf] was to be blamed as the effective root cause, not the fundamental human potential to evil.

It the same with all the terrible evils that has been committed by humans since human emerged.
The evil potential is always there but why the terrible evils started is because of some stimuli that trigger and catalyze the evil to manifest as real.

There was no Quran-inspired evil and violence before Muhammad started to preach Islam in 610AD.
Therefore the Quran embedded with the martial ethos of Muhammad is partly responsible for the terrible evils and violence that are related, influenced and inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran.
Note this is not a speculation but proven by evidence that SOME evil prone Muslims are making reference to the Quran and Islam.


There is no 'if' in this case.
The reality is;
1. There are 20% of Muslims [born evil prone] who are likely to perceive 'Duck' in the Quran.
2. There are 80% of Muslims who are likely to perceive 'Rabbit' in the Quran.
3. There are more than 55% of evil laden verses [of various degrees] in the Quran
4. Fact and reality is, the elements in point 3 triggered evil prone Muslims in point 1 to commit terrible evils and violence around the world.

There are no ifs in this case. There are only facts.


The ones I mentioned regularly are not "hate" sites.

Tell me how is this site a 'hate' site.
Islam: The Politically Incorrect Truth
I don't see them making their own opinions but merely collected and compiled their points from a wide range [not selective] News sources which all can verify to.

As far as I am concern I ensure my maintain a sound intellectual credibility by ensuring I am objective and rational [think outside the box] by considering various perspectives.
The fact that I personally made time sacrifices [>12 months full time] to understand [not necessary agree]
the Quran directly and not relying on commentaries indicate I am not a blind follower of the views of others.

I have claimed you have to understand and accept the Quran blindly, emotionally and psychologically because you MUST do that as a believer. Thus you can only think inside the box [i.e. boundaries of Quran and Islam]. Therefore your views are very subjective and not reliable within the context of the truth of reality.
Can you prove me wrong on my above claim?
I am certain your cannot.
You had a preconceived idea before you began to read the Qur'an and, judging by your posts here, it is still the same idea. It is still the same because you were thinking within your box and are still thinking wihin the same box.
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Old 03-22-2016, 06:32 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Any normal human being will be alarmed by the terrible evils and violence that are committed by SOME evil prone Muslims around the world that are reported in the News almost on a daily basis.
You may not realize it but I can disclose it to you that Muslims are more alarmed and more affected by such evil actions committed by some people who call themslves Muslims.

Quote:
In addition I and most individuals are personally inconvenienced as a consequences of those evils and violence. e.g. sense of terror and fears of travelling and being in popular places, irritating detailed airport checks, etc.
So am I!

Quote:
My motivation to post in an Islam Forum is motivated by my quest to understand the effective ultimate root causes of the above terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.
You have no hope of understanding the root causes unless you understand what I am telling you about them.
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Old 03-22-2016, 07:03 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
To do the above, I have embarked on extensive reading, researching and analyzing the Quran for a long time on a full time basis.
And there lies your problem; you are looking for the root cause in the wrong place, and not in the right people.

Quote:
In addition to my research I have to discuss what I have read and understood to ensure I am on the right track with various terms [Arabic or otherwise]. To do this I have to discuss with Muslims in an Islam forum [the general religion and Spiritual Forum will not be efficient for this purpose]. This is how I ended up in this Forum as a regular and I have been very fortunate to discuss the various Islamic issues with someone who had been very co-operative and responsive [albeit dogmatic] like yourself.
No matter how long you study the Qur'an or talk to us in this forum, you will be wrong to find the root cause in the Qur'an. There are 5 root causes for the evil actions of some Muslims:

1. Every human being (Including myself) has potential to do evil.

2. Politics.

3. Self interests.

4. National interersts.

5. Injustice.
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Old 03-22-2016, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Any normal human being will be alarmed by the terrible evils and violence that are committed by SOME evil prone Muslims around the world that are reported in the News almost on a daily basis.
In addition I and most individuals are personally inconvenienced as a consequences of those evils and violence. e.g. sense of terror and fears of travelling and being in popular places, irritating detailed airport checks, etc.

My motivation to post in an Islam Forum is motivated by my quest to understand the effective ultimate root causes of the above terrible evils and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.

To do the above, I have embarked on extensive reading, researching and analyzing the Quran for a long time on a full time basis.
In addition to my research I have to discuss what I have read and understood to ensure I am on the right track with various terms [Arabic or otherwise]. To do this I have to discuss with Muslims in an Islam forum [the general religion and Spiritual Forum will not be efficient for this purpose]. This is how I ended up in this Forum as a regular and I have been very fortunate to discuss the various Islamic issues with someone who had been very co-operative and responsive [albeit dogmatic] like yourself.
That is fair and I see it as a very valid reason to prefer asking your question here rather than the generic forum.

I do not perceive myself as being dogmatic I consider myself to be rather fatalistic. I did not become a Theist because I am Muslim, I came to be Muslim because I am a theist and I found it to be the proper way to worship. Every step of my life was a portion of the path that led to Islam. Including the 40 or so years of being anti-Islamic. It was a time I had to go through in order to find Islam.

I first learned Arabic for a 2 fold purpose one to satisfy my own joy of linguistics in particular the non-European languages. Secondly because my time in the military gave me reason to learn Arabic. I began learning it while stationed in Morocco. My first use of the Qur'an was simply as a study of the development and evolution of the current Arabic dialects. Later as a very Fundamentalist Christian I thought it gave me the ability to critique Islam in a 20 year venture to convince Muslims they were wrong and after that a 20 year period as an Atheist to point out what I perceived as errors in Theism, especially Islam. I have studied the Qur'an as a Christian, Atheist and Muslim and with each ideology my perception of it changed.

My own speculation of the violent people that wear the name of Muslim would still be violent even if they were not Muslim and had never seen the Qur'an. I find the reasons for their violence to be more related to being the result of ther own disposition and the physical environment they developed in. For some reason the people that develop in hotter climates seem to have a much higher incidence of violence.

While I agree There is a certain percentage of people that are prone to violence, but it does not seem to be evenly distributed for example violence is almost non-existent in Iceland but very common in Brazil. Another factor that may be involved is overcrowding and a third factor might be competition for resources.

When one looks at the profile of the terrorist very common traits I see are A tropical or desert heritage, being educated in large European cities and a lack of connection with the nation they live in. While there is a correlation of them being Muslim, I do not see that as being causation as Muslims that do not have the other factors demonstrate low levels of violence. Remember in scientific methodology the "green grass / robin" example. While it is true the robins arive in the spring at the time the grass urns green, but the grass turning green is not what causes the robins to arrive. Correlation is not proof of causation.

As part of your research you may want to compare rates of violence in all 49 Islamic nations.If you find they differ significantly you may want to reconsider your hypothesis that the Qur'an is the cause of violence among Muslims. My own observations indicate considerable differences in the prevalence of violence among the 49 Muslim majority nations.








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Old 03-22-2016, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You had a preconceived idea before you began to read the Qur'an and, judging by your posts here, it is still the same idea. It is still the same because you were thinking within your box and are still thinking wihin the same box.
If we are to be very serious everyone is thinking within a box, i.e. at least the human box.

In this case, the question is how big and how many layers are there within one's box.

In your case in relation to Islam, you are merely thinking within one box only. In addition, as a Muslim [believer] you MUST be bias and subjective otherwise your faith will not work.

Meanwhile I am thinking within a box that has many layers as proven with the materials and from the many perspectives I have engaged in, e.g. psychology, neuroscience, various spirituality, philosophy, etc.
In addition I am presenting my case as objective as possible.
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You may not realize it but I can disclose it to you that Muslims are more alarmed and more affected by such evil actions committed by some people who call themslves Muslims.
I am very aware, the so-called 'moderate' Muslims are very concerned with the threats from ISIS.
Btw, it is only from ISIS who are a danger to Muslims in general to some extent.
In many cases terrorists of ISIS will screen all victims by asking them to say something Islamic, [I presume Shahada] and if they can do it, they are let off while the infidels are killed.

Quote:
So am I!
Then you should take the trouble to understand the effective root causes.


Quote:
You have no hope of understanding the root causes unless you understand what I am telling you about them.
As I had said, as a Muslim [believer] you MUST be positively bias with your own religion. In such a case how I can trust your credibility.
Btw, you have not given any solid objective arguments to support your points.

On the other hand, I have presented by hypothesis, i.e.

1. 20% of all Muslims [as with ALL humans] are born to be evil prone.
2. The Quran [Islam] contain very much evil laden elements of various degrees.
3. Point 2 trigger the evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evils which is evidently real.

To test my hypothesis theoretically [not possible to be practical at present],
if we removed the evil laden elements in the Quran, we can be 100% certain there will be no more Quran inspired violence by evil prone Muslims.
if the Quran and Islam are not in existent then we can be 100% certain there will be no more Quran inspired violence by evil prone Muslims.

As a control;
1. 20% of all Buddhist [as with ALL humans] are born to be evil prone.
2. The main Buddhist sutra DO NOT contain any leading evil laden elements.
3. There are no evidence of evils and violence committed by evil prone Buddhist as inspired DIRECTLY by their religious texts.

Conclusion:
The above prove Islam in part [not the whole] is responsible for the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone and are influenced and inspired by the many evil laden elements in the Quran.

There is no way you can deny the conclusion above.
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Old 03-23-2016, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
And there lies your problem; you are looking for the root cause in the wrong place, and not in the right people.

No matter how long you study the Qur'an or talk to us in this forum, you will be wrong to find the root cause in the Qur'an. There are 5 root causes for the evil actions of some Muslims:

1. Every human being (Including myself) has potential to do evil.

2. Politics.

3. Self interests.

4. National interersts.

5. Injustice.
You are so blatant in denying Islam [via Quran] has anything to do with it.
This is expected since as a Muslim you must be positively bias with your religion and reject any negative element within your religion. Such thinking is very subjective and not objective.
Subjective thinking is a very weak form of thinking in relation to the progress of humanity.

Your view are Quran-only, however the reality with others is 80% of Muslims adopt the Ahadiths as divine and many are influenced by the evil laden elements there in.

Note my hypothesis;

Primary Root Causes

1. Every human being (Including myself) has potential to do evil.
1a. 20% [including Muslims] are born with evil tendency, likely to commit evil.
1c. Evil laden elements in the Quran [Islam].

1d. The religious existential impulse.

Secondary Root Causes.
2. Politics.
3. Self interests.
4. National interests.
5. Injustice.

The fact is if we get rid of all the secondary root causes, there will still be evil from the evil prone Muslims who are inspired by the evil laden elements in the Quran.
Evil prone Muslims will still kill and commit other evils, e.g. kill those promoting Western educations, kill those who draw cartoons, illegally occupy land of others, kill infidels for various reasons of disbelieved, etc.

Therefore your arguments are wrong and do not addressed the most critical factors.
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Old 03-23-2016, 12:39 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I do not perceive myself as being dogmatic I consider myself to be rather fatalistic. I did not become a Theist because I am Muslim, I came to be Muslim because I am a theist and I found it to be the proper way to worship. Every step of my life was a portion of the path that led to Islam. Including the 40 or so years of being anti-Islamic. It was a time I had to go through in order to find Islam.
Then you are dogmatic and fatalistic.
Point is as a Muslim [believer] you must be dogmatic, i.e. clinging to your dogmas/doctrines otherwise your faith will not work.
I don't think you will acknowledge Islam [dogma and doctrines] has any weaknesses.

Anthropologically, most humans are inclined to be theistic at present. It is just a matter of which religion [Abrahamic or others] will suit their inclinations and personality. You adopted Islam not that it the THE religion all humans must accept, rather you accepted Islam because it suited your psychology.

Quote:
My own speculation of the violent people that wear the name of Muslim would still be violent even if they were not Muslim and had never seen the Qur'an. I find the reasons for their violence to be more related to being the result of ther own disposition and the physical environment they developed in. For some reason the people that develop in hotter climates seem to have a much higher incidence of violence.
As I had mentioned 20% of humans [including Muslims] are naturally born to have a tendency to commit evil and violence.
Because they are naturally evil prone [sensitive], they can be triggered by any relevant stimuli.

For example if a Muslim is triggered by a jealous rage because his girlfriend is close to another handsome guy and that jealous person kill the other guy, this has nothing to do with Islam.
Thus Muslims who are evil prone will commit all sorts of evils which has nothing to do with Islam.

BUT if Muslims commit evil and violence by quoting the Quran and example of Muhammad, then it definitely has some thing to do with Islam. You cannot deny this.
Then the next question is did these evil prone Muslims interpret the verses of the Quran correctly or not.
Out of 100,000 incidents throughout the history of Islam, there could be a % which is due to wrong interpretation, but we cannot deny [proofs available] there are a % of incidents where the evil prone correctly interpret the 'DUCK' aspects of the Quran.

Therefore this % of DUCK cases prove the Quran [& Islam] do contribute to the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone when they are influenced and inspired by the DUCK elements in the Quran.

There is no way you can deny the above logic as supported by real cases.


Quote:
While I agree There is a certain percentage of people that are prone to violence, but it does not seem to be evenly distributed for example violence is almost non-existent in Iceland but very common in Brazil. Another factor that may be involved is overcrowding and a third factor might be competition for resources.
If there are 10 million of Muslims representing 50% of the population, I am very certain based on my hypothesis, there will be lots of evils and violence committed by evil prone Muslims who are influenced by the evil laden elements in the Quran.

It will be the same with Brazil if 50% of its population are Muslims.
In this case, the people will still commit significant evils and violence but there will be additional type of evils and violence, i.e. Islam-inspired-violence where infidels are kill for being non-Muslims, those who drew cartoons of Muhammad will be killed so will those who promote Western educations. There will be fights and killing because there is too much loud noises from the many mosques early in the morning, etc.

Quote:
When one looks at the profile of the terrorist very common traits I see are A tropical or desert heritage, being educated in large European cities and a lack of connection with the nation they live in. While there is a correlation of them being Muslim, I do not see that as being causation as Muslims that do not have the other factors demonstrate low levels of violence. Remember in scientific methodology the "green grass / robin" example. While it is true the robins arive in the spring at the time the grass urns green, but the grass turning green is not what causes the robins to arrive. Correlation is not proof of causation.
I don't think you have sufficient statistics to justify your above point.
The general conclusion is, evils and violence will arise whenever there are Muslims.
You cannot deny this conclusion.
You put a large population of Muslims in the Arctic amongst the eskimos, there will eventually be evils and violence by Muslims quoting the Quran.

Quote:
As part of your research you may want to compare rates of violence in all 49 Islamic nations.If you find they differ significantly you may want to reconsider your hypothesis that the Qur'an is the cause of violence among Muslims. My own observations indicate considerable differences in the prevalence of violence among the 49 Muslim majority nations.
I have presented by hypothesis many times with tests and control.
Unless I have new evidence or you can prove convincingly my hypothesis is right on target.

Here is another test;
Let say humans will occupy Mars in year 2250.
If the population of Mars is 50 million in 2350 where 20% are Muslims.
There is no significant change in the brain and psychology of human being then.
I will bet my last dollar on my hypothesis, there will be terrible evils and violence in Mars as committed by evil prone Muslims who are influenced by the evil laden elements in the eternal Quran.
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Old 03-23-2016, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Then you are dogmatic and fatalistic.
Point is as a Muslim [believer] you must be dogmatic, i.e. clinging to your dogmas/doctrines otherwise your faith will not work.
I don't think you will acknowledge Islam [dogma and doctrines] has any weaknesses.

Anthropologically, most humans are inclined to be theistic at present. It is just a matter of which religion [Abrahamic or others] will suit their inclinations and personality. You adopted Islam not that it the THE religion all humans must accept, rather you accepted Islam because it suited your psychology.

As I had mentioned 20% of humans [including Muslims] are naturally born to have a tendency to commit evil and violence.
Because they are naturally evil prone [sensitive], they can be triggered by any relevant stimuli.

For example if a Muslim is triggered by a jealous rage because his girlfriend is close to another handsome guy and that jealous person kill the other guy, this has nothing to do with Islam.
Thus Muslims who are evil prone will commit all sorts of evils which has nothing to do with Islam.

BUT if Muslims commit evil and violence by quoting the Quran and example of Muhammad, then it definitely has some thing to do with Islam. You cannot deny this.
Then the next question is did these evil prone Muslims interpret the verses of the Quran correctly or not.
Out of 100,000 incidents throughout the history of Islam, there could be a % which is due to wrong interpretation, but we cannot deny [proofs available] there are a % of incidents where the evil prone correctly interpret the 'DUCK' aspects of the Quran.

Therefore this % of DUCK cases prove the Quran [& Islam] do contribute to the terrible evils and violence committed by SOME Muslims who are evil prone when they are influenced and inspired by the DUCK elements in the Quran.

There is no way you can deny the above logic as supported by real cases.


If there are 10 million of Muslims representing 50% of the population, I am very certain based on my hypothesis, there will be lots of evils and violence committed by evil prone Muslims who are influenced by the evil laden elements in the Quran.

It will be the same with Brazil if 50% of its population are Muslims.
In this case, the people will still commit significant evils and violence but there will be additional type of evils and violence, i.e. Islam-inspired-violence where infidels are kill for being non-Muslims, those who drew cartoons of Muhammad will be killed so will those who promote Western educations. There will be fights and killing because there is too much loud noises from the many mosques early in the morning, etc.

I don't think you have sufficient statistics to justify your above point.
The general conclusion is, evils and violence will arise whenever there are Muslims.
You cannot deny this conclusion.
You put a large population of Muslims in the Arctic amongst the eskimos, there will eventually be evils and violence by Muslims quoting the Quran.

I have presented by hypothesis many times with tests and control.
Unless I have new evidence or you can prove convincingly my hypothesis is right on target.

Here is another test;
Let say humans will occupy Mars in year 2250.
If the population of Mars is 50 million in 2350 where 20% are Muslims.
There is no significant change in the brain and psychology of human being then.
I will bet my last dollar on my hypothesis, there will be terrible evils and violence in Mars as committed by evil prone Muslims who are influenced by the evil laden elements in the eternal Quran.
Working Backwards about 2/3 of all the world's Muslims live in Asia. but Asia has the lowt incidence of violence in the world. Brazil has virtually a zero Muslim population, but it has the highest rate of violence the world. Your hypothesis would indicate that Asia should have the highesrate of violence and Brazil should have the lowest.

The Muslim population of Iceland is now at a minimum of 0.4% .

Quote:
Although reliable statistics do not exist, the Muslim population of Iceland is estimated to be approximately 1,200, or 0.4% of the total Icelandic population of 320,000. Most Muslims in Iceland live in the capital Reykjavík, where they make up about 1% of the total population of 120,000.

The Muslim community in Iceland may be small in comparison to other European countries, but its rate of growth has been exponential: Since 1990, when there were fewer than a dozen Muslims in the country, their number has increased by nearly 10,000%. Much of this growth has been due to immigration, but in recent years native Icelanders have also been converting to Islam in increasing numbers.
Iceland to Get its First Mosque
In terms of numbers there are bout 1,200 Muslims now using your hypotheses 20% (240) of them should be prone to evil. Yet Iceland has a violence rate of near zero.
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Old 03-23-2016, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Working Backwards about 2/3 of all the world's Muslims live in Asia. but Asia has the lowt incidence of violence in the world. Brazil has virtually a zero Muslim population, but it has the highest rate of violence the world. Your hypothesis would indicate that Asia should have the highest rate of violence and Brazil should have the lowest.
Your view is based on very bad critical thinking.

Note my hypothesis again;
1. Every human being (Including myself) has potential to do evil.
2. 20% [including Muslims] are born with evil tendency, likely to commit evil.
3. There are a significant amounts of evil laden elements in the Quran [Islam].
4. Point 2 and 3 combined to generate Islam-Inspired Evils and Violence.

The general conclusion is wherever there a Muslims of significant numbers, there will be Islam-Inspired Evils and Violence.
This general conclusion is proven with glaring evidence.
Therefore my hypothesis is true.

I don't know where you guess your wild idea from that Asia has the lowest incidence of violence.
Note the specific topic is Islam-Inspired Evils and Violence and not other types of violence.

My hypothesis is not precisely into the 'highest' as there are many other factors to be considered but is it obvious there is a very high incidence of Islam-Inspired Evils and Violence coming from Asia re China, Pakistan, India, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Afghanistan, Philippines, Bangladesh, etc.

Your bringing in of Brazil is comparing apples and oranges.
We are discussing Islam-Inspired Evils and Violence not other types of violence.
Because there are minimal Muslims in Brazil, thus there is very less Islam-Inspired Evils and Violence.
Thus my hypothesis is true in proving Brazil is one of those countries that has the lowest Islam-Inspired Evils and Violence [specifically].

There a lots of non-Islam related violence in Brazil but they are due to the 20% of evil prone who are triggered by non-Islamic matters, e.g. poverty, gangsterism, social factors etc.

The majority of the people in Brazil are Christians. However we don't hear of Christianity inspired violence.


Quote:
The Muslim population of Iceland is now at a minimum of 0.4% .
If say we increase the Muslim population of Iceland to 50%, I am 100% certain as based on my hypothesis, there will be a tremendous increase in religion-inspired [i.e. Islam-inspired] Evils and Violence.


Quote:
In terms of numbers there are bout 1,200 Muslims now using your hypotheses 20% (240) of them should be prone to evil. Yet Iceland has a violence rate of near zero.
1,200 Muslims is not sufficient to be a critical mass. My hypothesis is applicable to a larger population of Muslims of at least 100,000 and more.

There are 1.5 billion Muslims around the world, thus 20% mean there is a potential pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims with a high tendency, propensity, compulsion, proclivity to commit evil when triggered by various effective stimuli.
Btw, I do not mean every one of the 300 million evil prone will definitely commit evils and violence which is very frightening. Even 18++ is sufficient to commit and 911 with 3000++ innocent people killed. Worst even lone wolf[s], a couple or group of up to 5 is sufficient to create real terrible terror. Note the recent Brussel case and many other similar ones in the past.
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