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Old 03-20-2016, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I am anti Quran for rational reasons. My judgement of the Quran is not a "particular tendency, trend, inclination, feeling, or opinion, especially one that is preconceived or unreasoned."

It seems you need to think about the definition of bias.

If you can think that I am suddenly pro-Quran it is worthless to try to hold any kind of discussion with you.
You are biased about Islam. You have an opinion that shapes your attitude and that is bias.

A couple definitions of bias


Quote:
bi·as
ˈbīəs/


verb
verb: bias; 3rd person present: biases; past tense: biased; past participle: biased; gerund or present participle: biasing

1.
cause to feel or show inclination or prejudice for or against someone or something.



https://www.google.com/search?q=Defi...utf-8&oe=utf-8
Quote:
bias noun (PREFERENCE)

C2 [C usually singular, U] the ​action of ​supporting or ​opposing a ​particular ​person or thing in an ​unfair way, because of ​allowing ​personal ​opinions to ​influence ​your ​judgment:

bias Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary
Quote:
Bias is an inclination or outlook to present or hold a partial perspective, often accompanied by a refusal to consider the possible merits of alternative points of view. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias
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Old 03-20-2016, 10:42 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
You are biased about Islam. You have an opinion that shapes your attitude and that is bias.

A couple definitions of bias
You are bias against reality.
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Old 03-20-2016, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That is true of any ideology. A person is not going to stay with or support something that they do not have a positive bias about.
I totally agree with you on this.
However note the definition of 'bias' as highlighted by Juju and you above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
A couple definitions of bias
I think this definition you provided is accurate, i.e.

Quote:
bias noun (PREFERENCE)
C2 [C usually singular, U] the ​action of ​supporting or ​opposing a ​particular ​person or thing in an ​unfair way, because of ​allowing ​personal ​opinions to ​influence ​your ​judgment:
bias Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary
The critical concept that support the term 'bias' is personal opinions or

as provided by Juju above,
Bias: a particular tendency, trend, inclination, feeling, or opinion, especially one that is preconceived or unreasoned:
Bias | Define Bias at Dictionary.com

The opposite of bias, i.e. not-bias which meant objective and rational meant the assertion is supported by justified knowledge and not by personal opinions or unreasoned statements.
Justified knowledge meant anyone can verify it with evidence and test it out.
For example the proposition, 'The Eifel Tower is in Paris at present' is justified knowledge with is justified.
Any one can go the Paris to confirm its existence at present.

That 'God exists as real' is a personal opinion, unreasoned, based of feelings and subjective.
Not every one can prove and verify the existence of a God.

My point:
Because Muslims as believers Must be positively bias with their religion, it meant even if statements on Islam are not true or there is a doubt to the truth, all Muslims must insist it is true blindly and forcefully.
Note this is why Islam is a faith, i.e. a set of beliefs without proofs of truth nor reasons.

WHY?
They have to rely on faith [without proofs nor reasons] because of the terrible psychological consequences if they do not do so.
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Old 03-20-2016, 10:59 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Most unbelievers by default have closed mind towards the truth in the Qur'an. They can't understand it.

9:32 They wish to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, and Allah will not consent save to perfect His light, though the unbelievers are averse.
The Quran and you got it wrong.
The critical elements in the Quran are based on unreasoned views and subjected to personal opinions and subjective views which cannot be reliable or credible.
It is also unfortunate the Quran is very foul mouth and condemned unbelievers in the worst and most terrible terms. A God [even theoretical] should be benevolent, kind and compassionate to all living things regardless of their state as believers or disbelievers but the God in the Quran is full of evil impulses directed at unbelievers.

Christians and Jews will not accept the Quran because it does not agree with their own personal opinions of their holy texts, i.e. Gospels and Torah respectively. Other believers will have similar disagreements.

As for me and other rational objective people, it is because the Quran is based on personal opinions and unreasoned views that all rational & right thinking persons will not accept the claims of the Quran.
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Old 03-22-2016, 02:55 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,040,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The Quran and you got it wrong.
I could be wrong but the Qur'an is never wrong. It has stood the test of time over and over again.

Quote:
The critical elements in the Quran are based on unreasoned views and subjected to personal opinions and subjective views which cannot be reliable or credible.
If there is any book that is reliable and credible, this is it!

Quote:
It is also unfortunate the Quran is very foul mouth and condemned unbelievers in the worst and most terrible terms. A God [even theoretical] should be benevolent, kind and compassionate to all living things regardless of their state as believers or disbelievers but the God in the Quran is full of evil impulses directed at unbelievers.
God has been quite benevolent and compasionate to all human beings in particular but it is many of the humsn beings that have been so ungrateful to God for His favours. The Qur'an describes so many favours of Allah that humans deny foolishly. Hell, if God hadn't been benevolent, kind and compassionate, this world wouldn't have even existed. In other words, you had no right to exist.ańd God brought you into existence. You cannot repay Him for even this one favour and the act of benevolence. And yet you complain about God condemning you for you being ungrateful. God gave you life, stop Him from making you die, if you do not believe that He gave you life!

Quote:
Christians and Jews will not accept the Quran because it does not agree with their own personal opinions of their holy texts, i.e. Gospels and Torah respectively. Other believers will have similar disagreements.
Many Christians have accepted Islam and the Qur'an. It is an ongoing process.
Muslims believe the Torah given to Moses and injeel given to Jesus to preach. It does not make us non-Muslims. In fact, obeying Allah by obeying commands from Him is fundamental requirement for both the Jews and the Christians as well as Muslims [I have read both books (as revelations) and learnt to understand Islam better]. Those who recognize this fact, have no problem accepting the Qur'an as it is from the same One God.

Quote:
As for me and other rational objective people, it is because the Quran is based on personal opinions and unreasoned views that all rational & right thinking persons will not accept the claims of the Quran.
Obviously, we have different view point. Most of what is in the Qur'an has already been proven to be correct. The rest does not belong to this world and, therefore, the Qur'an is an ongoing document about the spiritual world; the ultimate reality.
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Old 03-23-2016, 04:00 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I could be wrong but the Qur'an is never wrong. It has stood the test of time over and over again.

If there is any book that is reliable and credible, this is it!
The above views of your is expected because as a believer you must be positively bias and can never see any wrongs with the Quran. Otherwise your faith will not work.

In reality when viewed from outside the box, the Quran is full of errors and evil laden elements.

Quote:
God has been quite benevolent and compasionate to all human beings in particular but it is many of the humsn beings that have been so ungrateful to God for His favours. The Qur'an describes so many favours of Allah that humans deny foolishly. Hell, if God hadn't been benevolent, kind and compassionate, this world wouldn't have even existed. In other words, you had no right to exist.ańd God brought you into existence. You cannot repay Him for even this one favour and the act of benevolence. And yet you complain about God condemning you for you being ungrateful. God gave you life, stop Him from making you die, if you do not believe that He gave you life!
Your thinking in this case is very pathetic and immoral.

A conditional God that issue threats cannot be a benevolent and compassionate God.
It is like some one making the following conditional offer;
Those kiss my feet I will give them 100 million dollars but if they don't I will kill them.

Quote:
Many Christians have accepted Islam and the Qur'an. It is an ongoing process.
Muslims believe the Torah given to Moses and injeel given to Jesus to preach. It does not make us non-Muslims. In fact, obeying Allah by obeying commands from Him is fundamental requirement for both the Jews and the Christians as well as Muslims [I have read both books (as revelations) and learnt to understand Islam better]. Those who recognize this fact, have no problem accepting the Qur'an as it is from the same One God.
There will always be people converting from Islam to Christianity, and from Christianity to Islam. Plus between other religions. They do so for various reasons and generally to suit their psychological profile.

However the general rule is the truth will prevails in the long run and in the future more and more people will move away from Islam to other religions when they realize the truth of reality.

I have argued elsewhere in this forum, the Quran stipulated the Torah and Injeel in the hands of the present Jews and Christians respectively are the corrupted versions and not the original revelations send by Allah to the prophets and messengers.


Quote:
Obviously, we have different view point. Most of what is in the Qur'an has already been proven to be correct. The rest does not belong to this world and, therefore, the Qur'an is an ongoing document about the spiritual world; the ultimate reality.
I have studied religion and spirituality within humanity. The Quran is very amateurish and kindergartenish.

An effective religion or holy texts must have the potential to develop the spiritual quotient of the individual and thus the group and humanity in the longer run.

The Quran may work for some soteriologically and psychologically but overall it is regressive for humanity in the long run.
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Old 03-23-2016, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,294,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The above views of your is expected because as a believer you must be positively bias and can never see any wrongs with the Quran. Otherwise your faith will not work.

In reality when viewed from outside the box, the Quran is full of errors and evil laden elements.

Your thinking in this case is very pathetic and immoral.

A conditional God that issue threats cannot be a benevolent and compassionate God.
It is like some one making the following conditional offer;
Those kiss my feet I will give them 100 million dollars but if they don't I will kill them.

There will always be people converting from Islam to Christianity, and from Christianity to Islam. Plus between other religions. They do so for various reasons and generally to suit their psychological profile.

However the general rule is the truth will prevails in the long run and in the future more and more people will move away from Islam to other religions when they realize the truth of reality.

I have argued elsewhere in this forum, the Quran stipulated the Torah and Injeel in the hands of the present Jews and Christians respectively are the corrupted versions and not the original revelations send by Allah to the prophets and messengers.


I have studied religion and spirituality within humanity. The Quran is very amateurish and kindergartenish.

An effective religion or holy texts must have the potential to develop the spiritual quotient of the individual and thus the group and humanity in the longer run.

The Quran may work for some soteriologically and psychologically but overall it is regressive for humanity in the long run.
The last 3 lines:

I have studied religion and spirituality within humanity. The Quran is very amateurish and kindergartenish.

An effective religion or holy texts must have the potential to develop the spiritual quotient of the individual and thus the group and humanity in the longer run.

The Quran may work for some soteriologically and psychologically but overall it is regressive for humanity in the long run.

Are a strong illustration of why you and I have opposing views of Islam

I find the Qur'an to be a work of perfection in the use of language to achieve it's goal. The goal being to give the message that
There is only one God and only he is to be worshiped. The Qur'an does in in a manner that makes the Message understandable to anyone no matter what their intelligence, level of education or era of history they may be in.

I do not perceive the Qur'an as being a textbook for people to learn how to do Islam or even as an obligation to read. One will perfect their life by performing Islam, not by studying the Qur'an. The Qur'an gives us the why, but not the how. The how comes through the relationship with Allaah(swt) one develops by performing Islam.

Islam would remain even if every Qur'an vanished.

You and I seem to have very different concepts as to what the Qur'an and Islam are. It is possible for a Person to perform Islam even if they have never heard of the Qur'an.
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Old 03-23-2016, 07:46 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 753,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I find the Qur'an to be a work of perfection in the use of language to achieve it's goal. The goal being to give the message that
There is only one God and only he is to be worshiped. The Qur'an does in in a manner that makes the Message understandable to anyone no matter what their intelligence, level of education or era of history they may be in.
I agree!! Worship the sadistical allah or suffer everlasting and unspeakable torture. VERY clear!!

Qur’an 22:19-22 “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

"Surely, Allah has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire wherein they will abide for ever." (Quran 33:64)

"And whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, then surely, for him is the fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever." (Quran 72:23)

"They will long to leave the Fire, but never will they leave there from; and theirs will be a lasting torment." (Quran 5:37)

"…And they will never leave of the Fire." (Quran 2:167)

"Surely, those who disbelieve and did wrong; Allah will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way except the way of Hell, to dwell therein forever." (Quran 4:168-169)

The Quran has verse after verse of this hateful garbage.

Reminds me of ISIS burning people alive. 'Allah' must be so proud of ISIS!
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Old 03-23-2016, 09:10 PM
 
2,090 posts, read 2,158,874 times
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Let us not forget the greatest Muslim of the modern times.....her name was Farkhunda. And she is a true martyr...may her soul RIP..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qM8FyRO1eU
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Old 03-24-2016, 01:47 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,586,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The last 3 lines:

I have studied religion and spirituality within humanity. The Quran is very amateurish and kindergartenish.

An effective religion or holy texts must have the potential to develop the spiritual quotient of the individual and thus the group and humanity in the longer run.

The Quran may work for some soteriologically and psychologically but overall it is regressive for humanity in the long run.


Are a strong illustration of why you and I have opposing views of Islam

I find the Qur'an to be a work of perfection in the use of language to achieve it's goal. The goal being to give the message that
There is only one God and only he is to be worshiped. The Qur'an does in in a manner that makes the Message understandable to anyone no matter what their intelligence, level of education or era of history they may be in.
As a believer [especially theistic] you have an imperative to be positively bias towards your religion otherwise your faith will not work.
Since you are bias you have to be subjective and can never have an objective view of your religion.
Thus a believer based on faith will never acknowledge any negative element that is associated with his/her religion to protect an emotional and psychological bubble and ensure it does not burst.
Even if there is an obvious negative within your religion your mind will be blind to it or find ways to cover it up.

I made the above statements in bold based on an objective assessment of all the existing main religions in the world.

The Quran is very amateurish and kindergartenish based on the fact that it relies on fears, threats and us [good] versus them [evil] to achieve is soteriological and salvation purposes.


Quote:
I do not perceive the Qur'an as being a textbook for people to learn how to do Islam or even as an obligation to read. One will perfect their life by performing Islam, not by studying the Qur'an. The Qur'an gives us the why, but not the how. The how comes through the relationship with Allaah(swt) one develops by performing Islam.
The Quran is the sole representative of what is regarded as Islam.
Therefore for a person to understand what is Islam and to be a Muslim, the person must understand the Quran fully or at least the minimal necessary by himself or from scholars and experts.

The Quran is book of the general principles of what is Islam. While the Quran do contain certain hows, it is not a detailed manual.
Nevertheless one must comply with the principles, terms and conditions in the Quran to ensure one is a good progressive Muslim.
The principles in the Quran are supposed to extrapolate to the various details practices where necessary.


Quote:
Islam would remain even if every Qur'an vanished.
Islam is SOLELY represented by the present Quran as delivered to Muhammad via Gabriel within 610 to 632 AD.
Whatever revelations delivered to past prophets and messengers has been corrupted thus cannot represent Islam-proper.
Therefore if [theoretically] the Quran vanished forever, logically there will be no Islam.

Quote:
You and I seem to have very different concepts as to what the Qur'an and Islam are. It is possible for a Person to perform Islam even if they have never heard of the Qur'an.
As I had stated your views must be subjective and no other way, thus it would not be credible. My views are objective and thus credible for any one to verify then objectively.

In any case the above made no sense at all with reference to Islam and being a Muslim.
Note the logic,
1. For a person to perform Islam, the person must be a Muslim.
2. To be a Muslim [adherent of Islam] one must enter a covenant with Allah as indicated in the Quran.
3. If the person have not heard of the Quran directly or from any one else, that person will not be able to know the specific process of entering into a covenant with Allah as indicated in the Quran.
4. The covenant required the person to recognize Allah is the Only God and Muhammad is the final messenger.
5. If the person recognized Allah as the Only God but the person is ignorant of Muhammad because of no access to the Quran, then the person cannot be a Muslim.
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