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Old 03-27-2016, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Generally speaking, but did his blog bring this issue into public scrutiny? The claim by woodrow is: "You may be interested to know that the one who brought this into public scrutiny is Muslim. "

Brought what into public scrutiny? That hater Muslims were praising the terrorist on social media. (This was confusing because woodrow posted this claim right after quoting my post about the hater Muslims who mass raped all the children in the UK.)

Did no one in the media know about hater Muslims posting praises of the terrorist before the Paul Salahuddin-Armstrong blog?

The OP article said: "However, on the day of Qadri's funeral, one of the co-directors of the Association of British Muslims, Paul Salahuddin-Armstrong, was so shocked by comments on social media in the UK praising the killer that he wrote a blog post."

Woodrow said: "Is safe to assume you agree with this Muslim for bringing this to the attention of the media?"

Nowhere does it say this guy brought anything to the attention of the media. Just that he put out a blog posting.

Now woodrow won't put the quote here that says that the blog posting by Paul Salahuddin-Armstrong was responsible for bringing the social media posts praising the terrorist to the attention of the media.

Sorry this was long winded!!
Show the source for the story if it was not Armstrong's blog. There was no need for the blog to be mentioned, if it was not the source.
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Old 03-27-2016, 06:48 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 756,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Show the source for the story if it was not Armstrong's blog. There was no need for the blog to be mentioned, if it was not the source.
The blog was mentioned to show there was a 'horrified muslim' out there! There was NO MENTION AT ALL that his blog was the source for the story or that his blog brought the issue of hateful muslims praising the terrorist on social media to the attention of an ignorant media. Not every person mentioned in a news story is the source of the story.

The blog was written the day of the funeral. March 1.

"However, on the day of Qadri's funeral, one of the co-directors of the Association of British Muslims, Paul Salahuddin-Armstrong, was so shocked by comments on social media in the UK praising the killer that he wrote a blog post."

This was reported THE DAY BEFORE the blog was written:

Social Media Buzz With Mumtaz Qadri’s Death News | The News Tribe
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Old 03-27-2016, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
The blog was mentioned to show there was a 'horrified muslim' out there! There was NO MENTION AT ALL that his blog was the source for the story or that his blog brought the issue of hateful muslims praising the terrorist on social media to the attention of an ignorant media. Not every person mentioned in a news story is the source of the story.

The blog was written the day of the funeral. March 1.

"However, on the day of Qadri's funeral, one of the co-directors of the Association of British Muslims, Paul Salahuddin-Armstrong, was so shocked by comments on social media in the UK praising the killer that he wrote a blog post."

This was reported THE DAY BEFORE the blog was written:

Social Media Buzz With Mumtaz Qadri’s Death News | The News Tribe
There is no mention there of the Imam. Actually the only one I find that claims the Imam praised the Killer is Armstrong on his blog.

As the Imam does not seem to have a good grasp of the English Language I am inclined to believe he was misunderstood. Although I personally do not believe the Barelvi follow Islam I do find them to be very non-violent much like the Sufi and Ahmadyyah. I can not envision a Barelvi commending a killer, but I can see them opposing the death sentence for anyone and asking for blessings and forgiveness for every human.
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Old 04-06-2016, 03:32 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Outrageous, sad, backward ...

Asad Shah death: Man admits killing shopkeeper because he 'disrespected' Islam - BBC News
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Old 04-06-2016, 03:33 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Again, it's always the 'other' Muslim.
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Old 04-06-2016, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,328,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
Again, it's always the 'other' Muslim.
As we are not an organized religion with any hierarchy of clergy or any ordained Religious leaders and no form of membership each Muslim is an individual and speaks only for himself. there is no way a person can prove he is a Muslim. Each Muslim can only say he is Muslim and possibly explain why he believes he is performing Islam.

I do not know who is a Muslim, I only know if a person says he is Muslims and if the person performs and action I believe is not Islamic provide my reasons why I believe it is not Islamic;


the man who killed Asad Shah committed an act of murder under UK law. All Muslims are obligated to abide by the laws of the nation he is in. the killer committed a crime and also disobeyed Islamic laws as under Islamic Jurisprudence he is to obey the laws of the nation he is in.

In the case of the man who killed Asad Shah I believe the actions is not Islamic for several reasons.

1, the killer did not obey the laws of the nation he is in. In the UK murder is a crime and under UK laws it was an act of Murder. By not obeying the laws he was not following Islam

Quote:
The Muslims living a non-Muslim country, even if they originally entered that country by means of forged documents, are considered to be living in their adopted country under a covenant. They must, therefore, comply with the laws of their country of residence without, at the same time, disobeying Islamic Law.
Obeying the law in non-Muslim countries | IslamToday - English
2. Under Sharia A person accused of a crime must be given a fair trial. The killer accused Asad Shah of a crime and did not allow him the chance for a fair trial, The killer violated Islamic law by doing so

Quote:
2. Presumption of Innocence

The principle of the presumption of innocence is applicable both to criminal legislation and the implementation of it. In fact, in an early hadith (recorded sayings of the Prophet by his companions), the Prophet stated: “Had men been believed only according to their allegations, some persons would have claimed the blood and properties belonging to others, but the accuser is bound to present positive proof.”[40]

Regarding the application of the principle of the presumption of innocence to the categories of crimes in Islamic Law the following ahadith (pl. of hadith) are relevant:

The Prophet said: “avoid using circumstantial evidence in hudud”, which are the most serious of all crimes because they are explicitly mentioned in the Qur’an.[41] Referring to this hadith, Aisha (the wife of the Prophet) reported that the Prophet also said:

“Avoid condemning the Muslim to hudud whenever you can, and when you can find a way out for the Muslim then release him for it. If the Imam errs it is better that he errs in favor of innocence [pardon] than in favor of guilt [punishment].”[42]

It is firmly established principle in qisas crimes that circumstantial evidence favorable to the accused is to be relied upon, while if unfavorable to him it is to be disregarded.[43] Regarding the lesser ta`zir offenses, the presumption of innocence applies as well. In his Farewell Sermon, the Prophet said: “Your lives, your property, and your honor are a sacred trust upon you until you meet your Lord on the Day of Resurrection.”[44] Professor Bassiouni notes that this passage has been interpreted to mean that the duty to protect life, property and honor cannot be breached without positive proof of crime.”[45] It is thus a fundamental rule in Islamic criminal law that: “The burden of proof is on the proponent, and the oath is incumbent on the one who denies.”[46]
Rights of the Accused under Shari'ah Law - Criminal Defense Wiki
3. In the Ahadith and Qur'an we are told to forgive . Again the Killer did not act in accordance with Islam

Quote:
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Allah the Exalted said:

وَلْيَعْفُواوَلْيَصْفَحُواۗأَلَاتُحِبُّونَأَنيَغْف ِرَاللَّهُلَكُمْۗوَاللَّهُغَفُورٌرَّحِيمٌ

Let them pardon and overlook. Would you not love for Allah to forgive you? Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Surah An-Nur 24:22

And Allah said:

خُذِالْعَفْوَوَأْمُرْبِالْعُرْفِوَأَعْرِضْعَنِالْج َاهِلِينَ

Show forgiveness, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the ignorant.

The believers are those who spend in charity during ease and hardship and who restrain their anger and pardon the people, for Allah loves the doers of good.

Surah Ali Imran 3:134

And Allah said:

وَالْمَلَائِكَةُيُسَبِّحُونَبِحَمْدِرَبِّهِمْوَيَس ْتَغْفِرُونَلِمَنفِيالْأَرْضِۗأَلَاإِنَّاللَّهَهُو َالْغَفُورُالرَّحِيمُ

The angels glorify and praise their Lord and seek forgiveness for those on the earth. Verily, Allah is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

Surah Ash-Shura 42:5

And Allah said:

وَلَمَنصَبَرَوَغَفَرَإِنَّذَٰلِكَلَمِنْعَزْمِالْأُ مُورِ

Whoever is patient and forgives, verily, that is among the matters of steadfast determination.

By Allah, he is described in the Torah with some of what is mention in the Quran:

O Prophet, We have sent you as a witness, a bringer of glad tidings, and to give warning, (33:45) and to guard over the illiterate, for you are My servant and messenger. I have called you a trustworthy man who is neither rude nor loud in the markets, nor does he return evil with evil, but rather he pardons and forgives.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 2018, Grade: Sahih

Uqbah ibn Amir (may Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

يَاعُقْبَةُبْنَعَامِرٍصِلْمَنْقَطَعَكَوَأَعْطِمَنْ حَرَمَكَوَاعْفُعَمَّنْظَلَمَكَ

O Uqbah, reconcile whoever cuts you off, give to whoever deprives you, and pardon whoever wrongs you.

Source: Musnad Ahmad 16999, Grade: Sahih

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) reported:

The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

اللَّهُمَّإِنَّكَعُفُوٌّكَرِيمٌتُحِبُّالْعَفْ وَ

O Allah, You are forgiving and generous. You love to forgive.

Source: Sunan At-Tirmidhi 3513, Grade: Sahih

Anas ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) reported:

مَارَأَيْتُالنَّبِيَّصَلَّىاللَّهُعَلَيْهِوَسَلَّم َرُفِعَإِلَيْهِشَيْءٌفِيهِقِصَاصٌإِلَّاأَمَرَفِيهِ بِالْعَفْوِ

I never saw a case involving legal retaliation being referred to the Messenger of Allah except that he would recommend pardoning the criminal.

Source: Sunan Abu Dawud 4497, Source: Sahih

Anas ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) reported:

A man came to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, with the killer of his relative.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

اعْفُعَنْهُ

Pardon him. But the man refused.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

خُذْالدِّيَةَ

Take the blood money. But the man refused.

The Prophet (peace and blessings Allah be upon him) said:

اذْهَبْفَاقْتُلْهُفَإِنَّكَمِثْلُهُ

Go and kill him, for you are like him.

Anas (may Allah be pleased with him) said:

فَخَلَّىسَبِيلَهُ

So the man let him go.

Source: Sunan An-Nasa’i 4730, Grade: Sahih

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) reported:

The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

فَإِنَّالْإِمَامَأَنْيُخْطِئَفِيالْعَفْوِخَيْرٌمِن ْأَنْيُخْطِئَفِيالْعُقُوبَةِ

Verily, it is better for the leader to make a mistake forgiving the criminal than it is for him to make a mistake punishing the innocent.



Forgiveness in the Quran and Sunnah | islam.ru
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,595,051 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
As we are not an organized religion with any hierarchy of clergy or any ordained Religious leaders and no form of membership each Muslim is an individual and speaks only for himself. there is no way a person can prove he is a Muslim. Each Muslim can only say he is Muslim and possibly explain why he believes he is performing Islam.

I do not know who is a Muslim, I only know if a person says he is Muslims and if the person performs and action I believe is not Islamic provide my reasons why I believe it is not Islamic;
You [or any one] as a person do not have any divine authority to decide who is a Muslim or whether his act is Islamic or not.

Whether a person is a Muslim or his deeds are Islamic or not can be inferred objectively from the verses in the Quran.
The Quran defined who is a Muslim and when a Muslim comply with the Quran, then his actions are Islamic.
Thus this is the best approach one can objectively assess whether an act is Islamic or not albeit this cannot be final as in God eyes.

Quote:
the man who killed Asad Shah committed an act of murder under UK law. All Muslims are obligated to abide by the laws of the nation he is in. the killer committed a crime and also disobeyed Islamic laws as under Islamic Jurisprudence he is to obey the laws of the nation he is in.

In the case of the man who killed Asad Shah I believe the actions is not Islamic for several reasons.

1, the killer did not obey the laws of the nation he is in. In the UK murder is a crime and under UK laws it was an act of Murder. By not obeying the laws he was not following Islam
No where is the Quran it is said a Muslim must comply with a country's Law.
A Muslim must comply with the Quran, that is the only condition to be a Muslim and his entitlement to go to Paradise and avoid Hell on Judgment Day.

The Quran give permission for a Muslim to fight [kill] any one who is a "threat" to Islam and Muslims.
The problem is the term "threat" is very vague and present various DUCK-RABBIT scenarios.
Asad Shah is a threat is a part of a threat to Islam from the 'DUCK' view of the man who killed him.
Asad Shah has committed a sin when he is friendly with non-Muslims in accordance to verses in the Quran exhorting Muslims not to be intimate friends and general friend with non-Muslims.
Asad Shah's Ahmadiya Islam accused of being pseudo or false Islam is a threat to Sunni Islam because if Ahamadiya Islam become popular because it focus more on non-violence, then it is threat to Islam.
Because Ahamadiyas are a threat to 'mainstream' Islam, then they should be killed in accordance to the Quran.

The killing was a bit extreme for non-Muslims and even 'moderate' Muslims but the question is does that killing represent a sin in the eyes of Allah.
According to the verses in the Quran, it is not an unpardonable sin and not even a lesser sin.

As far as the killer is concern, secular laws do not matter and will not decide whether he will go to Paradise [with expectation of virgins] or not. What he is more concern is how Allah made his judgment. This is why many Muslims in prisons and waiting on death row are not worried at all but are rejoicing with the confidence they will go to heaven and Paradise.

When the notorious Abu Bakar Bashir was sentenced to jail, he declared, "in the eyes of Islam, I am right."

Quote:
2. Under Sharia A person accused of a crime must be given a fair trial. The killer accused Asad Shah of a crime and did not allow him the chance for a fair trial, The killer violated Islamic law by doing so

3. In the Ahadith and Qur'an we are told to forgive . Again the Killer did not act in accordance with Islam
Whatever is in the Ahadith must comply with the Quran which has the final say. There is no mentioned of "fair trial" in the Quran where the necessary actions need to be taken.
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Old 04-07-2016, 03:40 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,048,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Whether a person is a Muslim or his deeds are Islamic or not can be inferred objectively from the verses in the Quran.
For that reason, one must read and understand the Qur'an in order to regard one's action Islamic or not Islamic. Not everyone who claims to be Muslim does only Islamic actions.

In practice, most non-muslims are not really interested to understand whether the action is Islamic or not, they blindly regard every action of a Muslim to be Islamic. The non-muslims have different ways of assuming whether an action is Islamic or not. Their ways are: 1. If someone shouts Allahuakbar, his action is Islamic. 2. If he has beard or is wearing hijab, his/her action is Islamic. 3. If he says he is Muslim, his action is Islamic even if he has just come out of a pub with a bottle of whisky in his hand. If he smashes that bottle on someone's head, it is regarded as Islamic terrorism. Non-muslim can't tell which action is Islamic and which is not Islamic. This is why Bush and Blair were churning the phrase "Islamic terrorism" day after day before attacking Iraq.

Quote:
The Quran defined who is a Muslim and when a Muslim comply with the Quran, then his actions are Islamic.
Thus this is the best approach one can objectively assess whether an act is Islamic or not albeit this cannot be final as in God eyes.
Just as any hadith can be rejected if it does not comply with any verse of the Qur'an, any action that that does not comply with any verse of the Qur'an is not islamic.

Quote:
No where is the Quran it is said a Muslim must comply with a country's Law.
A Muslim must comply with the Quran, that is the only condition to be a Muslim and his entitlement to go to Paradise and avoid Hell on Judgment Day.
A Muslim can comply with the Qur'an without going against the law of the country. All American Muslims and all British Muslims have been complying with the American and the British laws respectively for at least over 50 years. This hasn't made them unislamic. I have paid income tax all my working life. I have also paid Islamic tax (zakat) on top of income tax. Therefore, it is possible to comply with the law of a non-islamic country as well as laws in the Qur'an.

Quote:
The Quran give permission for a Muslim to fight [kill] any one who is a "threat" to Islam and Muslims.
The threat has to be real and it had to be of a war/attack on Muslims. In the early days, it was threat of extinction of Muslims and therefore threat of completely destroying Islam. There is no such threat now. All Muslims are not going to be made extinct pretty soon, are they?

Quote:
The problem is the term "threat" is very vague and present various DUCK-RABBIT scenarios.
You can assume it to be vague but it has to be as I have just described. God made sure then, when Muslims were a very small number, and will make sure even now that His Will prevails.

Quote:
Asad Shah is a threat is a part of a threat to Islam from the 'DUCK' view of the man who killed him.
Asad Shah has committed a sin when he is friendly with non-Muslims in accordance to verses in the Quran exhorting Muslims not to be intimate friends and general friend with non-Muslims.
Asad Shah had committed no sin and was complying with the verses 60:8-9 of the Qur'an. His killer has committed a sin by diobeying 60:8-9.

Quote:
Asad Shah's Ahmadiya Islam accused of being pseudo or false Islam is a threat to Sunni Islam because if Ahamadiya Islam become popular because it focus more on non-violence, then it is threat to Islam.
Their religion also is Islam.

Quote:
Because Ahamadiyas are a threat to 'mainstream' Islam, then they should be killed in accordance to the Quran.
Wrong! There are many Ahmadis in Pakistan. Why aren't they all being killed? If they do not physically attack Sunnis, they are to be left in peace. They are no threat to Islam because their religion is also Islam as they read the same Qur'an and comply with the same Qur'an.

Shah's killer did not give the reason of threat but that Shah was claiming to be a prophet.

Quote:
The killing was a bit extreme for non-Muslims and even 'moderate' Muslims but the question is does that killing represent a sin in the eyes of Allah.
To begin with, disobeying Allah is sin. There was disobedience of Allah (60:8-9) in this murder.

Quote:
According to the verses in the Quran, it is not an unpardonable sin and not even a lesser sin.
Murder is a sin. Disobeying Allah is a sin. Disobeying UK law, that is definitely not against any Islamic law, is at least a Scottish sin. The recompense for him is going to be jail in Scotland.

Quote:
As far as the killer is concern, secular laws do not matter and will not decide whether he will go to Paradise [with expectation of virgins] or not. What he is more concern is how Allah made his judgment. This is why many Muslims in prisons and waiting on death row are not worried at all but are rejoicing with the confidence they will go to heaven and Paradise.
Well, they are going to have a shock when they get there.

Quote:
When the notorious Abu Bakar Bashir was sentenced to jail, he declared, "in the eyes of Islam, I am right."
He was not right because he was not obeying the law of the country.

Quote:
Whatever is in the Ahadith must comply with the Quran which has the final say. There is no mentioned of "fair trial" in the Quran where the necessary actions need to be taken.
Court of justice was established in Madina during Muhammad's days. Even Abu Bakr Bashir was given fair trial.
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,595,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The threat has to be real and it had to be of a war/attack on Muslims. In the early days, it was threat of extinction of Muslims and therefore threat of completely destroying Islam. There is no such threat now. All Muslims are not going to be made extinct pretty soon, are they?
Where in the Quran did it say the threat must be a threat of completely destroying Islam?
Who is to judge whether Islam in under threat of extinction or not?

There are many types of threats to Islam and Muslims as mentioned in the Quran, e.g. corruption, mischiefs, wronged, hindering Muslims from practicing Islam.

Btw, I am not asserting the majority of Muslims [say 80%] will be influenced by these verses related to these threats [DUCK-RABBIT] scenarios.

Quote:
You can assume it to be vague but it has to be as I have just described. God made sure then, when Muslims were a very small number, and will make sure even now that His Will prevails.
I am not assuming it is vague.
The point is the Quran was compiled by fallible humans and they did not do a good job when the verses were presented in a vague manner with evil laden elements that will definitely influence
SOME Muslims who are born naturally with evil tendencies, e.g. the killer of Asad Shah.

Quote:
Asad Shah had committed no sin and was complying with the verses 60:8-9 of the Qur'an. His killer has committed a sin by disobeying 60:8-9.
Their religion also is Islam.
From the killer's view, Asad Shah and his Ahmadiyas has committed a serious unpardonable sin by assigning an unsanctioned partner/messiah to Allah.

60:8-9 refer to war situation.
However there are other verses that sanction Muslims to fight non-Muslims if Islam is under threat in a general situation.


Quote:
Wrong! There are many Ahmadis in Pakistan. Why aren't they all being killed? If they do not physically attack Sunnis, they are to be left in peace. They are no threat to Islam because their religion is also Islam as they read the same Qur'an and comply with the same Qur'an.

Shah's killer did not give the reason of threat but that Shah was claiming to be a prophet.
As I had stated 80% of Muslims will not be influenced by the evil laden verses.
However because those evil laden verses exists in the Quran, they are potential for evil to be committed as evidenced by Asad Shah's case.
Because it is fact and this potential exists in the Quran, I can predict with 100% certainty, an Ahmadi will be killed by an evil prone Muslims somewhere in the world in the near future. You want to bet on this?
Therefore as long as the Quran and Muslims exist, Ahamdis will be killed by SOME evil prone Muslims.
Why?
Because the Quran was authored and compiled by unwise and incompetent religious people in such a manner that DUCK-RABBIT scenario with evil potential exists to influence SOME evil prone Muslims.

Quote:
To begin with, disobeying Allah is sin. There was disobedience of Allah (60:8-9) in this murder.
Unfortunately you are not Allah to make such a judgment final.
Because the evil laden elements [fight and kill non-Muslims] exists in the Quran, there is no way you can prevent the 20% of evil prone Muslims from doing their duty sincerely [acting on the evil laden verses] to please Allah so they can go to Paradise.

Quote:
Murder is a sin. Disobeying Allah is a sin. Disobeying UK law, that is definitely not against any Islamic law, is at least a Scottish sin. The recompense for him is going to be jail in Scotland.
He was not right because he was not obeying the law of the country.
Obviously if one disobey any Law they will have to face the consequences. But for zealous evil prone Muslims they don't give a damn with secular laws. Because Allah promise they martyrdom these evil prone Muslims are even ever ready to sacrifice their life for the cause of Allah. So going to prison for Allah sake is nothing to them.

Quote:
Well, they are going to have a shock when they get there.
Who said so? You? Who are you to judge on behalf of Allah?
The point is these zealous evil prone sincerely acted out on the evil laden verses with innocence on their part and they believed it was Allah's command.

Another point is past evil prone Muslims have committing all sorts of evil and violence in accordance to Quranic verses, but there are no reports and evidence they were punished by Allah in the hereafter. Therefore these evil prone are confident they are doing Allah's work when they act out the evil laden verses.
How can you counter this?

Quote:
Court of justice was established in Madina during Muhammad's days. Even Abu Bakr Bashir was given fair trial.
The above are the works of humans where necessary.
However in other verses the principle is Allah permit Muslims to fight [kill] if Islam and Muslims are under threat.
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Old 04-08-2016, 12:05 AM
 
3,169 posts, read 1,048,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
However in other verses the principle is Allah permit Muslims to fight [kill] if Islam and Muslims are under threat.
Quote those verses about mere "threat" to Islam and Muslims!
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