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Old 03-27-2016, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You are not describing Muslim_ness here. Muslim_ness is, as described in a dictionary, "quality and fact" of being a Muslim. You are thinking of "guantity" of actions here, and not the "quality and fact" of being a Muslim.
What is, in your view "Jewish_ness", "mad_ness", "craziness", "kufr_ness"?
I am surprise you cannot understand by "quality and fact" and thinking outside the box.

Let me introduce a more straightforward example;
What do you think "yellowness" means.
Yes it would be 'quality and fact of being yellow.
But the additional critical point here is, quality would definitely imply pureness of the color 'yellow'.
Such yellowness can range from 1% yellow to 100% pure yellow depending on whether the yellow is mixed with quantity of any other color.
Therefore there is a correlation between quality and quantity in reference to 'yellowness.'

Similarly there is a correlation between the quality of being Muslim and the 'quantity' of deeds/actions complied in relation to being Muslim as in the Quran and thus Muslim_ness.

"Jewishness" would meant how much a person has complied with the Torah.

"Madness" is related a the person's the degree of damage in his brain to cause the degree of madness. The psychiatric community has a standard manual to measure the degree of madness of a person.

Even 'evilness' can be measured by the evil acts of a person.
A thief is definitely less evil than a serial killer and this can someday be measured by the state of one's neurons in the brain.

I hope you get my intention and meaning of what I meant by 'Muslim_ness' as described and explain above.


Quote:
It is critical issue; they should be educated. I have said it in the past and say it now; their ignorance can only go if they are educated properly. A leaflet from our local police was distributed to all worshippers yesterday after the Friday prayer in our local mosque, describing why terrorism and suicide bombing is not Islamic. Even the Imam made a special announcement advising to keep away from people who may try to radiclize us to do terrorism or suicide bombings. I had understood it all even before I read the leaflet but some young Muslims may not have understood the issue properly before reading the leaflet. Now they have better education and, hopefully, all from our mosque will stay away from terrorism and suicidal action.
Education is important but you forgot the fact that there is a % of people who are born with various degrees of an inability to be educated.
You can see this in reality by the distribution of good students and bad students in any school.
No matter how humanity try there will be hardcore people who will not be receptive to education and will remain uneducated.

If 20% are difficult to be educated, giving pamphlets to 1.5 billion Muslims meant 300 million of hardcore Muslims cannot be educated regardless of whatever attempts are tried.

This is why SOME Muslims who are born with evil tendencies will continue to be influenced by the evil laden elements in the Quran to commit evil and violence regardless of how much humanity try to educate them to be good.

The solution should have been 'prevention at source is better than cure' i.e. there should not be any evil laden elements in holy texts to catalyze the unavoidable natural born evil prone. But the Catch-22 is the Quran cannot be edited to get rid of the evil laden elements that are already there because Allah's words is perfect.


Quote:
22:58 and 22:59 are about the people who were forced to leave their homes in Mecca and then were attacked by the Meccans and died protecting their religion by protecting themselves. These verses have nothing to do with actions of killers in Paris or in Brussels. Even these killers, as with bin Laden, are not idntifying the verses as the root cause but the political root cause of countries in the Middle East and Afghanistan being attacked. They misuse the verses not as the root cause but merely to qualify their actions for another root cause. So the real root cause is not even the misuse of verses but their reason given, which is of political nature rather than of religious nature.
If 22:58 and 22:59 refer only to the time at Mecca, Muslims might as well throw away the Quran because most the verses relate to incidents and doctrine in the 7th century during the time of Muhammad.
Since the 7th century and Muhammad is past and gone, then going by your logic, the Quran should not be applicable to people in 2016.

You are wrong with the above.
What is critical in the Quran are the generic principles for Muslims to adhere and comply and those incidents and examples are merely examples to explain the principles.
If you have read the Quran more than 50 times -not 6-7 times - you would have understood the examples are not critical but rather it is the generic principles that are critical.
22:58-59 represent the generic principle that wherever Islam and Muslims are under threat [oppressed, force to leave home, etc.], good Muslims must do their duty in fighting the non-Muslims wherever they are.

Quote:
The Quran does not exhort Muslims not to be friendly with ALL Jews, ALL Christisns and ALL non-Muslims but only those who are active in opposing the Qur'an by physical actions as the Meccans did.
The fact is the Quran in general do not exhort/encourage Muslims to be friendly with non-Muslims but rather be stern, aloof and harsh with disbelievers in general
66:9. O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers [infidels] and the hypocrites, and be stern with them [infidels] . Hell will be their [infidels] home, a hapless journey's end.
As I had mentioned the "moderate" Muslims who are friendly to non-Muslims are doing so because the are good human being based on their own human nature and not because they are good Muslims. There are no significant dominating verses in the Quran that encourage Muslims to be friendly with non-Muslims.

It is very evident, when Muslims are not serious and zealous with their Muslim-ness they are very friendly with non-Muslims, but when they turned serious they become very aloof and unfriendly to non-Muslims.

Quote:
The Muslim [killer] has expressed an act of contempt on the shopkeeper based on verses in the Quran which is right but the act of killing the shopkeeper is drastic. I guess [can judge for Allah], that guy may be rebuked by Allah on Judgment Day but I don't thing he will be sent to eternal hell like disbelievers.
I can now see how I can't judge such a person but you can. The difference is that I can qualify, using the Qur'an, as to what is likely the judgment (4:93) for such a person but you haven't qualified your judgment using the Qur'an.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum
The over zealousness in killing of the shopkeeper case is a good example why holy texts should never contain evil laden elements. It should be fool proofs [Zero evil laden elements] against any overzealous idiots who can take things to the extreme.
Quote:
Not to the extreme but completely out of the Islamic principles.

There is nothing in the Qur'an that forbids us from greeting Christians. The Christians had given Muslims protection in Abissiniya when infidels of Mecca wanted to kill them for their religion. Even this hypocrite had come to a mainly Christian country. What was he here for if he didn't want to greet Christians?
There is also nothing in the Quran that encourage Muslims to greet Christians and to befriend Christians in general.
Rather there are a lot of verses that set the mode that Muslims should not be friendly to Christians and other non-Muslims.
Thus for the zealous and pious Muslims it would be safer to be more incline to be unfriendly than to incur a possible sin or demerit from Allah on Judgment Day.

Note in contrast Christianity, i.e. when one is exhorted to 'Love your enemy' then be friendly to non-Christians would not be an issue.
Other religions also has explicit verses to be friendly to their non-believers.
It is only Islam [as a mainstream religion] that explicitly promote contempt, abhorrence 'hate' of non-Muslim in general.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:49 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,585,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessxwrites89 View Post
I think you're right; but remember these verses are also found in the Bible and I would assume the Torah as well. I think there will always be evil in the world and an evil person could read into anything with evil intent. It's sad, but it's true. I don't think there's anything we can do about it, however.
As discussed in other threads the difference between the Torah, Gospels, and Islam are as follows;

1. There are more evil laden verses [and more worst] in the OT than in the Quran and NT.

2. There are also evil laden elements in the NT but very minimal.

3. There a significant amount of evil laden element in the Quran.

There are a natural percentage of believers [Jews, Christians and Muslims] who are born with evil tendencies which I have conservatively estimated at 20%.
According to my hypothesis, these 20% will be influenced by the evil laden verses to commit evils and violence.

Torah and Jews
There is no doubt the evil elements in the Torah has influenced SOME Jews who are evil prone to commit evil. However the evidence of such evil incidents are not significant.
Except for right wings activities in Israel there are no worldwide violence committed by Jews around the world.
The Jews minority were singled out to be killed by Muslims in Middle East, Paris, Mumbai and elsewhere but we do not hear of Jews retaliating all over the world.
In addition the Jews do not proselytize their religion to increase their number of believers.
There must be other reasons why there is so few incidents of Jewish attacks on non-Jewish people around the world AT PRESENT and potentially in the future.
Thus Jewish terror is not a significant issue at present and whatever is happening between the Israelists & Jews and the Palestinians must be resolved as soon as possible.

New Testament [NT] and Christians
The difference between the Torah and Quran is the NT has an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. 'love your enemies' 'give the other cheek' 'love this and love that' and an overall ethos of love.
Therefore if Christians commit evils and violence against non-Christians, such evils are not condoned by Christianity per-se but rather these Christians do it as initiated by their own inherent evil nature [because they were born with evil tendencies]. Those Christians who burnt or kill doctors in abortion clinic did not do it on behalf of Christianity, Jesus nor God.

Christianity do have its negative aspects to humanity but they are not serious evils and violence that warrant immediate attention.

Quran and Muslims
There is no doubt the evil elements in the Quran has influenced SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit evil.
In contrast to lesser Jews, there is a potential pool of 300 millions evil prone Muslims around the world.
The evidence of the resultant influence of the evil laden elements in the Quran is glaringly evident with news of terrible evils and violence around the world.

Here is one statistic since 911 i.e. [roughly],

The above refer to incidents with fatalities.
There are numerous other incidents of evils and violence without fatalities.

The seriousness with Islam [in part not whole] and the Quran [big part] is it does NOT have an absolute overriding pacifist maxim to put a ceiling check to the evil and violent potential when evil prone Muslims are triggered by the evil laden [Duck-Rabbit] verses.
Once the rampage of evil and violence is triggered it is like a snow ball rolling down a snow laden slope. This is what is happening with ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Qaeda and others.

In various Quranic verses with evil laden elements there are conditions but they are so dualistic [Duck-Rabbit] such that they hold no restraints for the evil prone Muslims who see the 'Duck' in them.
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Old 03-27-2016, 03:48 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,039,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I am surprise you cannot understand by "quality and fact" and thinking outside the box.

Let me introduce a more straightforward example;
What do you think "yellowness" means.
Yes it would be 'quality and fact of being yellow.
But the additional critical point here is, quality would definitely imply pureness of the color 'yellow'.
Such yellowness can range from 1% yellow to 100% pure yellow depending on whether the yellow is mixed with quantity of any other color.
Therefore there is a correlation between quality and quantity in reference to 'yellowness.'

Similarly there is a correlation between the quality of being Muslim and the 'quantity' of deeds/actions complied in relation to being Muslim as in the Quran and thus Muslim_ness.
Whether it is 1% yellowness or 99% yellowness, it is still yellowness. The same way Muslim_ness is, regardless of the number of deeds, is still Muslim_ness. There is no percentage in the fact of being Muslim. One is either Muslim or not a Muslim.

Quote:
"Jewishness" would meant how much a person has complied with the Torah.
Jewishness is fact of being Jewish. You will see that the Jewish people still call themselves Jewish (by birth) even if they do not comply with the Torah.

Quote:
"Madness" is related a the person's the degree of damage in his brain to cause the degree of madness. The psychiatric community has a standard manual to measure the degree of madness of a person.
It is still madness.

You are not talking here of fact of being mad but "degree of madness".

Quote:
I hope you get my intention and meaning of what I meant by 'Muslim_ness' as described and explain above.
I certainly get your intention and your meaning of what you perceive to be Muslim_ness but the true Muslim_ness is still the FACT OF BEING MUSLIM.


Quote:
Education is important but you forgot the fact that there is a % of people who are born with various degrees of an inability to be educated.
Anyone who has learnt something whether through experience or from just one verse of the Qur'an is able to be educated.

Quote:
If 20% are difficult to be educated, giving pamphlets to 1.5 billion Muslims meant 300 million of hardcore Muslims cannot be educated regardless of whatever attempts are tried.
They did not become hardcore without learning something nor were they born hardcore. They were educated somehow to become hardcore . They can be educated better the same way to become different.

Quote:
This is why SOME Muslims who are born with evil tendencies will continue to be influenced by the evil laden elements in the Quran to commit evil and violence regardless of how much humanity try to educate them to be good.
If they can learn from some verses of the Qur'an then it would a failure of humanity, if humanity can't teach them either its own way or by using the other verses of the Qur'an..

Quote:
The solution should have been 'prevention at source is better than cure' i.e. there should not be any evil laden elements in holy texts to catalyze the unavoidable natural born evil prone. But the Catch-22 is the Quran cannot be edited to get rid of the evil laden elements that are already there because Allah's words is perfect.
There is no need to edit the Qur'an. There is need to understand it better.

Quote:
If 22:58 and 22:59 refer only to the time at Mecca, Muslims might as well throw away the Quran because most the verses relate to incidents and doctrine in the 7th century during the time of Muhammad.
Since the 7th century and Muhammad is past and gone, then going by your logic, the Quran should not be applicable to people in 2016.
22:58-59 are not the only verses in the Qur'an. These verses are telling us that those who migrated because of their religion (in Allah's way) and then were slain and died, will go to paradise. Although the verses are about the people who had migrated then were murdered because of their religion, the principle still applies that if I were persecuted because of being a Muslim and was forced to migrate, and then killed by the same people, I too would go to paradise as a martyr.

Quote:
What is critical in the Quran are the generic principles for Muslims to adhere and comply and those incidents and examples are merely examples to explain the principles.
That's my point too.

Quote:
The fact is the Quran in general do not exhort/encourage Muslims to be friendly with non-Muslims but rather be stern, aloof and harsh with disbelievers in general
That is not "in general" but in specific cases. 60:9 rejects your "in general" view.
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Old 03-27-2016, 04:36 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
As discussed in other threads the difference between the Torah, Gospels, and Islam are as follows;

1. There are more evil laden verses [and more worst] in the OT than in the Quran and NT.

2. There are also evil laden elements in the NT but very minimal.

3. There a significant amount of evil laden element in the Quran.

There are a natural percentage of believers [Jews, Christians and Muslims] who are born with evil tendencies which I have conservatively estimated at 20%.
According to my hypothesis, these 20% will be influenced by the evil laden verses to commit evils and violence.

Torah and Jews
There is no doubt the evil elements in the Torah has influenced SOME Jews who are evil prone to commit evil. However the evidence of such evil incidents are not significant.
Except for right wings activities in Israel there are no worldwide violence committed by Jews around the world.
The Jews minority were singled out to be killed by Muslims in Middle East, Paris, Mumbai and elsewhere but we do not hear of Jews retaliating all over the world.
In addition the Jews do not proselytize their religion to increase their number of believers.
There must be other reasons why there is so few incidents of Jewish attacks on non-Jewish people around the world AT PRESENT and potentially in the future.
Thus Jewish terror is not a significant issue at present and whatever is happening between the Israelists & Jews and the Palestinians must be resolved as soon as possible.

New Testament [NT] and Christians
The difference between the Torah and Quran is the NT has an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. 'love your enemies' 'give the other cheek' 'love this and love that' and an overall ethos of love.
Therefore if Christians commit evils and violence against non-Christians, such evils are not condoned by Christianity per-se but rather these Christians do it as initiated by their own inherent evil nature [because they were born with evil tendencies]. Those Christians who burnt or kill doctors in abortion clinic did not do it on behalf of Christianity, Jesus nor God.

Christianity do have its negative aspects to humanity but they are not serious evils and violence that warrant immediate attention.

Quran and Muslims
There is no doubt the evil elements in the Quran has influenced SOME Muslims who are evil prone to commit evil.
In contrast to lesser Jews, there is a potential pool of 300 millions evil prone Muslims around the world.
The evidence of the resultant influence of the evil laden elements in the Quran is glaringly evident with news of terrible evils and violence around the world.

Here is one statistic since 911 i.e. [roughly],

The above refer to incidents with fatalities.
There are numerous other incidents of evils and violence without fatalities.

The seriousness with Islam [in part not whole] and the Quran [big part] is it does NOT have an absolute overriding pacifist maxim to put a ceiling check to the evil and violent potential when evil prone Muslims are triggered by the evil laden [Duck-Rabbit] verses.
Once the rampage of evil and violence is triggered it is like a snow ball rolling down a snow laden slope. This is what is happening with ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Qaeda and others.

In various Quranic verses with evil laden elements there are conditions but they are so dualistic [Duck-Rabbit] such that they hold no restraints for the evil prone Muslims who see the 'Duck' in them.
When one looks at that sticker and realizes those numbers accumulated over a 15 year period and are a world wide total, It is a refection that over 99% of the world's Muslims are not negatively influenced by what some label as "Evil Laden" verses. a number sufficiently low to strongly indicate there are other factors involved. If just 1% were influenced we would expect a minimum of 15,000,000 Terrorist attacks EVERY YEAR If as you state 20% of the wold's Muslims are evil prone that gives you a base of 300,000,000 evil people. Now if Just 1% of those who are influenced to commit evil we would have 3,000,000 per year, but we have less than 3,000 Terrorist attacks annually Less than 1% of what would be expected if those "Evil Laden Verses" were a factor.
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Old 03-27-2016, 03:32 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
When one looks at that sticker and realizes those numbers accumulated over a 15 year period and are a world wide total, It is a refection that over 99% of the world's Muslims are not negatively influenced by what some label as "Evil Laden" verses. a number sufficiently low to strongly indicate there are other factors involved. If just 1% were influenced we would expect a minimum of 15,000,000 Terrorist attacks EVERY YEAR If as you state 20% of the wold's Muslims are evil prone that gives you a base of 300,000,000 evil people. Now if Just 1% of those who are influenced to commit evil we would have 3,000,000 per year, but we have less than 3,000 Terrorist attacks annually Less than 1% of what would be expected if those "Evil Laden Verses" were a factor.
Top 7 countries with highest crime rate.

#1 Somalia. 100% Muslim.

#2. Afghanistan. 98% Muslim

#3. Iraq. 97% Muslim.

#4. Syria. 93% Muslim.

#5. Sudan and South Sudan. 97% Muslim.

#6 Pakistan. 97% Muslim.

#7 Yemen. 100% Muslim.

Violent Crime Rates by Country - 10 Most Dangerous
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Old 03-27-2016, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Top 7 countries with highest crime rate.

#1 Somalia. 100% Muslim.

#2. Afghanistan. 98% Muslim

#3. Iraq. 97% Muslim.

#4. Syria. 93% Muslim.

#5. Sudan and South Sudan. 97% Muslim.

#6 Pakistan. 97% Muslim.

#7 Yemen. 100% Muslim.

Violent Crime Rates by Country - 10 Most Dangerous
Interesting how things change depending upon what News source one finds reliable. I tend to find ABC news a bit more reliable than unknowns sources

Top 10 Countries with Highest Murder Rate in the World 2015

Top 10 Countries with Highest Murder Rate in the World 2015
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Old 03-27-2016, 04:22 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Interesting how things change depending upon what News source one finds reliable. I tend to find ABC news a bit more reliable than unknowns sources

Top 10 Countries with Highest Murder Rate in the World 2015

Top 10 Countries with Highest Murder Rate in the World 2015
There is a difference between violence and murder rate. Murder would not include rape or torture or crimes by government, robberies, assaults and domestic violence, etc.
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Old 03-27-2016, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
There is a difference between violence and murder rate. Murder would not include rape or torture or crimes by government, robberies, assaults and domestic violence, etc.
However murder is the epitome of violence and nearly always will be the climatic completion of a lesser form of violence such as rape, robbery or domestic violence.
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Old 03-27-2016, 05:47 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 752,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
However murder is the epitome of violence and nearly always will be the climatic completion of a lesser form of violence such as rape, robbery or domestic violence.
I do not buy your assertion that murder is "nearly always the climatic completion".

What percent of all female rape victims were then murdered? What percent of robbery victims were then murdered?

"In approximately 2,000 cases in the United States each year, robbery
violence proves fatal to the victim.2 This is a relatively rare event
given that there are more than one million robberies annually.3"
http://scholarlycommons.law.northwes...0&context=jclc

Maybe the statistics are different in the middle east. Give them!!

And did I mention acid attacks?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya3sAnc6EMA
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Old 03-27-2016, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,289,226 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I do not buy your assertion that murder is "nearly always the climatic completion".

What percent of all female rape victims were then murdered? What percent of robbery victims were then murdered?

"In approximately 2,000 cases in the United States each year, robbery
violence proves fatal to the victim.2 This is a relatively rare event
given that there are more than one million robberies annually.3"
http://scholarlycommons.law.northwes...0&context=jclc

Maybe the statistics are different in the middle east. Give them!!

And did I mention acid attacks?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya3sAnc6EMA
Your own words are pretty much verification of the point I am making. It is true less than 1% of violent crimes result in Murder. Therefore if you have knowledge of the number of Murders you have in a nation and multiply that by 100 you will have a very good indicator of how many violent crimes actually take place Including the unreported ones. The US has an average of 14,000 Murders per year. Our known number of violent crimes In 2012, was an estimated 1,214,462 Source: https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc.../violent-crime
which is very close to 100 times the number of Murders.

Murder is the ultimate completion of a violent crime and occurs in about 1% of violent crimes. If you know the number of Murders in a nation you have a good indicator of the total number of violent crimes that occur. simply multiply the number of Murders by 100
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