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Old 03-26-2016, 01:58 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
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16:96-97 is Allah's ordination that a Muslim shall reap on Judgment Day what s/he had sowed on Earth.
in [] = mine.
Note there are many other verses in the Quran that carry similar elements of rewards in accordance to some degree of performance on Earth.
16:96. That which ye have wasteth away, and that which Allah hath remaineth. And verily We shall pay those [Muslims] who are steadfast a recompense in proportion to the best of what they used to do.

16:97. Whosoever [Muslims] doeth right, whether male or female, and is a believer, him verily We shall quicken with good life, and We shall pay [accord] them [Muslims] a recompense [reward] in proportion to the best of what they used to do.
From the above it implies there is a 'best' standard for a Muslim to strive towards.
Let say this 'best' standard is 100%.
Thus 16:96-97 imply a Muslim who achieved 70/100 will be rewarded in proportion to the best he have done, i.e. 70/100.
Agree?

Most Muslims will assume they are not perfect thus they will do their best and their performance could be within the range of 60/100 to 80/100.
So what do you think is a performance as a Muslim that would be ideal, i.e. 100/100?

My hypothesis:
I believe 16:96-97 are the type of verses that inspire SOME evil prone [20%] to stretch their performance beyond what ordinary Muslims [80%] would do.
SOME evil prone [from the 20%] Muslims will do more to please Allah to get a greater recompense % as promised by Allah in 16:96-97
This is where the zealous evil prone Muslims will strive for the cause of Allah with their wealth and in addition with their life. They are willing to sacrifice their life in killing non-Muslims who are a threat to Islam as sanction in the Quran.
Agree?
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Old 03-26-2016, 03:14 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
16:96-97 is Allah's ordination that a Muslim shall reap on Judgment Day what s/he had sowed on Earth.
in [] = mine.
Note there are many other verses in the Quran that carry similar elements of rewards in accordance to some degree of performance on Earth.
16:96. That which ye have wasteth away, and that which Allah hath remaineth. And verily We shall pay those [Muslims] who are steadfast a recompense in proportion to the best of what they used to do.

16:97. Whosoever [Muslims] doeth right, whether male or female, and is a believer, him verily We shall quicken with good life, and We shall pay [accord] them [Muslims] a recompense [reward] in proportion to the best of what they used to do.
From the above it implies there is a 'best' standard for a Muslim to strive towards.
Let say this 'best' standard is 100%.
Thus 16:96-97 imply a Muslim who achieved 70/100 will be rewarded in proportion to the best he have done, i.e. 70/100.
Agree?

Most Muslims will assume they are not perfect thus they will do their best and their performance could be within the range of 60/100 to 80/100.
So what do you think is a performance as a Muslim that would be ideal, i.e. 100/100?
Obeying each command, and helping other human beings to the highest standard (2:177).

Quote:
My hypothesis:
I believe 16:96-97 are the type of verses that inspire SOME evil prone [20%] to stretch their performance beyond what ordinary Muslims [80%] would do.
SOME evil prone [from the 20%] Muslims will do more to please Allah to get a greater recompense % as promised by Allah in 16:96-97
This is where the zealous evil prone Muslims will strive for the cause of Allah with their wealth and in addition with their life. They are willing to sacrifice their life in killing non-Muslims who are a threat to Islam as sanction in the Quran.
Agree?
No.

They are not killing only those who are trying to kill them (waging war on them) but also others who are not waging war on them (are innocent) as well as other Muslims. There is no command in the Qur'an to kill ALL non-Muslims nor other believers.
For example, a Glasgow Muslim shopkeeper was killed by another Muslim simply because the peaceful shopkeeper had wished Happy Easter message to Christians. The killer wasn't striving in the way of Allah but he was wrongly thinking so in his ignorance. He is going to have a shock on the Day of Judgment. He had taken a life in ignorance of limits set by Allah through the Qur'an. That is not the best but the worst of what he did.
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Old 03-26-2016, 03:51 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Obeying each command, and helping other human beings to the highest standard (2:177).
Which 'each' command, where are they and how many of 'each command'.

This is why it is critical for a Muslim to understand all the necessary commands issued by Allah.
This can only be obtained by scrutinizing the 6,236 verses in the Quran [& no where else] and extracting whatever are commands in the Quran and not missing any. This is a very objective approach.

Example,
Upon detailed analysis, one may discover there are 1,000 commands.
If a Muslim obeyed only 200 of the command [including the basic & imperative ones] then that Muslim's Muslim-ness is 200/1000 i.e. 20%.
If a Muslim obeyed 600 of the command [including the basic & imperative ones] then that Muslim's Muslim-ness is 600/1000 i.e. 60%.
The 60% Muslim-ness will be accorded more rewards by Allah on J-Day then the one who scored only 20%.
The above will give a rough assessment to the person and Allah will only know the true answers.



Quote:
No.
They are not killing only those who are trying to kill them (waging war on them) but also others who are not waging war on them (are innocent) as well as other Muslims. There is no command in the Qur'an to kill ALL non-Muslims nor other believers.
For example, a Glasgow Muslim shopkeeper was killed by another Muslim simply because the peaceful shopkeeper had wished Happy Easter message to Christians. The killer wasn't striving in the way of Allah but he was wrongly thinking so in his ignorance. He is going to have a shock on the Day of Judgment. He had taken a life in ignorance of limits set by Allah through the Qur'an. That is not the best but the worst of what he did.
It is true there will be Muslims who act wrongly in killing non-Muslims. This should be condemned and that Muslim should be educated. However this is not the critical issue.

What is critical is those of the naturally born 20% of evil prone Muslims who understood 'DUCK' as correctly commanded by Allah to strive for the cause of Allah and the resultant in the killing of non-Muslims. There are many such verses in the Quran.
Here is one example;
22:58. Those [Muslims] who fled their homes for the cause of Allah and then were slain or died, Allah verily will provide for them [Muslims] a good provision. Lo! Allah, He verily is Best of all who make provision.
22:59. Assuredly He will cause them [martyred Muslims] to enter by an entry [paradise] that they will love. Lo! Allah verily is knower, Indulgent.
As inspired by the above, SOME of the 20% evil prone Muslims had gone to Afghanistan, Syria, elsewhere and even to the land of the infidels, USA, France, Paris to fight non-Muslims because the non-Muslims had occupied Muslim lands, kill [bomb] Muslims and other reasons.
They are striving for the cause of Allah with their lives and thus expected to be accorded with rewards in proportion to their sacrifice as stipulated in 16:96-97.

In the case of the Glasgow shopkeeper who was killed by another Muslim, there is no way YOU [& I or Others] can judge on behalf of Allah on Judgment Day. The Quran exhorted Muslims not to be friendly with Jews, Christians and non-Muslims.
The Muslim [killer] did not kill for no reason.
The Muslim [killer] has expressed an act of contempt on the shopkeeper based on verses in the Quran which is right but the act of killing the shopkeeper is drastic. I guess [can judge for Allah], that guy may be rebuked by Allah on Judgment Day but I don't thing he will be sent to eternal hell like disbelievers.

The over zealousness in killing of the shopkeeper case is a good example why holy texts should never contain evil laden elements. It should be fool proofs [Zero evil laden elements] against any overzealous idiots who can take things to the extreme.
If there were no evil laden elements in the Quran [like Buddhist Sutras] the shopkeeper would not have been killed for greeting Christians.
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:23 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Which 'each' command, where are they and how many of 'each command'.
They are in the Qur'an.

Quote:
This is why it is critical for a Muslim to understand all the necessary commands issued by Allah.
This can only be obtained by scrutinizing the 6,236 verses in the Quran [& no where else] and extracting whatever are commands in the Quran and not missing any. This is a very objective approach.
Correct.

Quote:
Example,
Upon detailed analysis, one may discover there are 1,000 commands.
If a Muslim obeyed only 200 of the command [including the basic & imperative ones] then that Muslim's Muslim-ness is 200/1000 i.e. 20%.
If a Muslim obeyed 600 of the command [including the basic & imperative ones] then that Muslim's Muslim-ness is 600/1000 i.e. 60%.
The 60% Muslim-ness will be accorded more rewards by Allah on J-Day then the one who scored only 20%.
The above will give a rough assessment to the person and Allah will only know the true answers.
You are not describing Muslim_ness here. Muslim_ness is, as described in a dictionary, "quality and fact" of being a Muslim. You are thinking of "guantity" of actions here, and not the "quality and fact" of being a Muslim.

What is, in your view "Jewish_ness", "mad_ness", "craziness", "kufr_ness"?

Quote:
It is true there will be Muslims who act wrongly in killing non-Muslims. This should be condemned and that Muslim should be educated. However this is not the critical issue.
It is critical issue; they should be educated. I have said it in the past and say it now; their ignorance can only go if they are educated properly. A leaflet from our local police was distributed to all worshippers yesterday after the Friday prayer in our local mosque, describing why terrorism and suicide bombing is not Islamic. Even the Imam made a special announcement advising to keep away from people who may try to radiclize us to do terrorism or suicide bombings. I had understood it all even before I read the leaflet but some young Muslims may not have understood the issue properly before reading the leaflet. Now they have better education and, hopefully, all from our mosque will stay away from terrorism and suicidal action.

Quote:
What is critical is those of the naturally born 20% of evil prone Muslims who understood 'DUCK' as correctly commanded by Allah to strive for the cause of Allah and the resultant in the killing of non-Muslims. There are many such verses in the Quran.
Here is one example;
22:58. Those [Muslims] who fled their homes for the cause of Allah and then were slain or died, Allah verily will provide for them [Muslims] a good provision. Lo! Allah, He verily is Best of all who make provision.
22:59. Assuredly He will cause them [martyred Muslims] to enter by an entry [paradise] that they will love. Lo! Allah verily is knower, Indulgent.
As inspired by the above, SOME of the 20% evil prone Muslims had gone to Afghanistan, Syria, elsewhere and even to the land of the infidels, USA, France, Paris to fight non-Muslims because the non-Muslims had occupied Muslim lands, kill [bomb] Muslims and other reasons.
They are striving for the cause of Allah with their lives and thus expected to be accorded with rewards in proportion to their sacrifice as stipulated in 16:96-97.
22:58 and 22:59 are about the people who were forced to leave their homes in Mecca and then were attacked by the Meccans and died protecting their religion by protecting themselves. These verses have nothing to do with actions of killers in Paris or in Brussels. Even these killers, as with bin Laden, are not idntifying the verses as the root cause but the political root cause of countries in the Middle East and Afghanistan being attacked. They misuse the verses not as the root cause but merely to qualify their actions for another root cause. So the real root cause is not even the misuse of verses but their reason given, which is of political nature rather than of religious nature.

Quote:
In the case of the Glasgow shopkeeper who was killed by another Muslim, there is no way YOU [& I or Others] can judge on behalf of Allah on Judgment Day. The Quran exhorted Muslims not to be friendly with Jews, Christians and non-Muslims.
The Muslim [killer] did not kill for no reason.
The Quran does not exhort Muslims not to be friendly with ALL Jews, ALL Christisns and ALL non-Muslims but only those who are active in opposing the Qur'an by physical actions as the Meccans did.

[QUOTEV]The Muslim [killer] has expressed an act of contempt on the shopkeeper based on verses in the Quran which is right but the act of killing the shopkeeper is drastic. I guess [can judge for Allah], that guy may be rebuked by Allah on Judgment Day but I don't thing he will be sent to eternal hell like disbelievers.[/quote]I can now see how I can't judge such a person but you can. The diference is that I can qualify, using the Qur'an, as to what is likely the judgment (4:93) for such a person but you haven't qualified your judgment using the Qur'an.

[quote]The over zealousness in killing of the shopkeeper case is a good example why holy texts should never contain evil laden elements. It should be fool proofs [Zero evil laden elements] against any overzealous idiots who can take things to the extreme.[/QJUOTE]Not to the extreme but completely out of the Islamic principles.

Quote:
If there were no evil laden elements in the Quran [like Buddhist Sutras] the shopkeeper would not have been killed for greeting Christians.
There is nothing in the Qur'an that forbids us from greeting Christians. The Christians had given Muslims protection in Abissiniya when infidels of Mecca wanted to kill them for their religion. Even this hypocrite had come to a mainly Christian country. What was he here for if he didn't want to greet Christians?
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:05 AM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post

22:58 and 22:59 are about the people who were forced to leave their homes in Mecca and then were attacked by the Meccans and died protecting their religion by protecting themselves.
Really? Got any proof of that? WHY was Muhammed forced to leave? What did Muhammed do? Did the Meccans give Muhammed chances to behave? What part did Muhammed's uncle play? Exactly how many Muslims were killed by these Meccans? Why did Muhammed reject peace offerings from Meccans?

If Muslims only fight in self defense of their lives, why does the Quran say this:

They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah's way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter (Quran 2:217)

Why did Muhammed attack the caravans and kill drivers and steal from the Meccans? Since Muhammed and his gang attacked the caravans and killed and stole....wouldn't the Meccans be right to defend the caravans?
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Old 03-26-2016, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Really? Got any proof of that? WHY was Muhammed forced to leave? What did Muhammed do? Did the Meccans give Muhammed chances to behave? What part did Muhammed's uncle play? Exactly how many Muslims were killed by these Meccans? Why did Muhammed reject peace offerings from Meccans?

If Muslims only fight in self defense of their lives, why does the Quran say this:

They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah's way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter (Quran 2:217)

Why did Muhammed attack the caravans and kill drivers and steal from the Meccans? Since Muhammed and his gang attacked the caravans and killed and stole....wouldn't the Meccans be right to defend the caravans?
What caravans did Muhammad(saws) attack?
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Old 03-26-2016, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Candy Kingdom
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I think you're right; but remember these verses are also found in the Bible and I would assume the Torah as well. I think there will always be evil in the world and an evil person could read into anything with evil intent. It's sad, but it's true. I don't think there's anything we can do about it, however.
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Old 03-26-2016, 05:47 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
Really? Got any proof of that?
Read the two verses.
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Old 03-26-2016, 06:22 PM
 
1,601 posts, read 750,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Read the two verses.
I did.

You said: "22:58 and 22:59 are about the people who were forced to leave their homes in Mecca and then were attacked by the Meccans and died protecting their religion by protecting themselves."

Post the verses that prove that Meccans attacked and killed Muslims. These verses say nothing about Meccans and give no details of Muslims that were slaughtered by Meccans.

Give me some verses about Muslims being slaughtered by Meccans.

WHY was Muhammed forced to leave? What did Muhammed do? Did the Meccans give Muhammed chances to behave? What part did Muhammed's uncle play? Exactly how many Muslims were killed by these Meccans? Why did Muhammed reject peace offerings from Meccans?

If Muslims only fight in self defense of their lives, why does the Quran say this:

They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah's way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter (Quran 2:217)

Why did Muhammed attack the caravans and kill drivers and steal from the Meccans? Since Muhammed and his gang attacked the caravans and killed and stole....wouldn't the Meccans be right to defend the caravans?
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:08 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by juju33312 View Post
I did.

You said: "22:58 and 22:59 are about the people who were forced to leave their homes in Mecca and then were attacked by the Meccans and died protecting their religion by protecting themselves."

Post the verses that prove that Meccans attacked and killed Muslims. These verses say nothing about Meccans and give no details of Muslims that were slaughtered by Meccans.
I have explained what these verses are about. Now, if you did read the verses then you tell me what are the verses about if not as I explained?
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