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Old 03-29-2016, 01:38 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
No. You agree with them. You say the same things as they say. You qualify their actions with the out of context verses of the Qur'an as they do. You are just as guilty as they are of having twisted belief about the verses of the Qur'an. This is no way to resolve those terrible evils and violence. You are merely fueling the evil actions by qualifying them with out of context verses.
This is pathetic because you do not understand rationality and objectivity.

If I said SOME Germans are doing it 'right' in accordance to the Main Kempf and Hitler's ideology it does not mean I agree with Nazism.

It is the same when I same the Taliban are doing in 'right' in accordance to the Quran, that is the objective view and that does not mean I agree with their ideology.

The Taliban are doing in right in accordance to the Quran, but their 'right' acts are evil in the normal conventional sense. This meant there is something wrong with the Taliban and/or Quran.
My hypothesis proved both Taliban & other evil prone Muslim and the Quran [in part] are contributing to the evil and violence committed by SOME evil prone Muslims.
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Old 03-29-2016, 01:50 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
This is pathetic because you do not understand rationality and objectivity.

If I said SOME Germans are doing it 'right' in accordance to the Main Kempf and Hitler's ideology it does not mean I agree with Nazism.
If you say they are doing right in accordance with Mein Kempf then you are promoting them by agreeing with their ideology. That is not rationality or objectivity but fueling the idealogy. You need to understand your pathetic action here!
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Old 03-29-2016, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If you say they are doing right in accordance with Mein Kempf then you are promoting them by agreeing with their ideology. That is not rationality or objectivity but fueling the idealogy. You need to understand your pathetic action here!
You missed the point, doing "right" in according to Mein Kempf do not imply they are morally right.
It mean they interpreted the Mein Kempt correctly, i.e. rightly.

If some ask you to jump of the cliff and if you do that, then you are doing in "right" in accordance to that person's command. It mean you have understood his command correctly, i.e. rightly. It does not mean I agree with the whole thing morally.
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Old 03-29-2016, 03:57 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You missed the point, doing "right" in according to Mein Kempf do not imply they are morally right.
It mean they interpreted the Mein Kempt correctly, i.e. rightly.
If they are not right morally then they are wrong, and not right. This point is more important to get rid of the evil actions than to say they are right in their ideology.

Quote:
If some ask you to jump of the cliff and if you do that, then you are doing in "right" in accordance to that person's command. It mean you have understood his command correctly, i.e. rightly. It does not mean I agree with the whole thing morally.
If that person has already told you that there is hell fire if you jump but you can jump anyway, you will be stupid to ignore the warning of hell fire and just think of jumping command. That is what is meant by taking the command out of the context.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:24 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If they are not right morally then they are wrong, and not right. This point is more important to get rid of the evil actions than to say they are right in their ideology.

If that person has already told you that there is hell fire if you jump but you can jump anyway, you will be stupid to ignore the warning of hell fire and just think of jumping command. That is what is meant by taking the command out of the context.
You missed my point and is confused with semantics.
One can be right relatively to something but morally wrong on a universal basis.
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Old 03-29-2016, 07:11 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You missed my point and is confused with semantics.
One can be right relatively to something but morally wrong on a universal basis.
Then the correct thing to do is to teach such a person on universal basis, and to tell him where he is going wrong. Blame his wrong action rather than keep parroting his action is correct according to some verses in the Qur'an. Don't you understand that you are saying exactly what he wants to hear?

The rational thing to do, if you really want to reduce evil actions, is to say that there are other verses in the Qur'an that he did not take into account so he is wrong.

As long as you qualify his action, just as he does, you are a problem rather than a solution in reducing evil actions.
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Old 03-29-2016, 07:51 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,371 posts, read 1,506,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It's not Islam that is threat but some mentally sick people who regard themselves Muslims. They are killing even Muslims.

There were many Muslim families in the Lahore park with Christian families enjoying Easter Sunday together. Over 70 have died so far, and this number could go up. The Pakistani Taliban have claimed responsibility that they were targetting Christians. Obviously they are killing Muslims as well who mix with Christians. Last time they had kiled 143 Muslim children in a Peshawar school because the Pakistan army was after these people. They saw Pakistani army cooperating with the West. The children in that school were of families serving in Pakistan army.

Only insane people would do this kind of evil act.
One could argue that believing in illogical myths and 'miracles' is in itself insane.
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Old 03-30-2016, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Then the correct thing to do is to teach such a person on universal basis, and to tell him where he is going wrong. Blame his wrong action rather than keep parroting his action is correct according to some verses in the Qur'an. Don't you understand that you are saying exactly what he wants to hear?

The rational thing to do, if you really want to reduce evil actions, is to say that there are other verses in the Qur'an that he did not take into account so he is wrong.

As long as you qualify his action, just as he does, you are a problem rather than a solution in reducing evil actions.
I have already mentioned these are the evil prone Muslims who cannot be taught and educated to do good at all.

I suggest you brush up on basic Psychology and made an attempt to understand human behaviors and the deviants and those with abnormal psychology. If say, 10% of humans are vulnerable to abnormal psychology, i.e. 700 millions, those who are likely to be educated and changed are probably 1%, the rest of the 9%, i.e. 630 millions are hardcore and cannot be cured significantly by education and teaching.
The only way to cure them effectively is to give them strong drugs which may have side effects.

Try educating some of the hardcore criminals [serial killers, rapists, child rapists, pedophile and other] in prisons. There were many prisoners who seemed to have improved but once let out they continue with their crimes. The only solutions to prevent these hardcore cases is to keep them in prison permanently or drug them [which is immoral and not acceptable].

The problem with our discussion is you are ignorant of a lot of peripheral and critical human knowledge, e.g. human behaviors and psychology, religion and spirituality in general, philosophy, linguistic and general knowledge.
Even with your focus on Islam, your knowledge of Islam is not extensive and in depth since you read the Quran only 6-7 times.
Btw, what is your background and specialty, i.e. before you retired.

What I have done is not condoning their evil actions. What I have done is identifying the effective critical root causes of the problem of Quran inspired evils and violence, i.e.
1. the evil prone Muslims
2. the evil laden elements in the Quran

The Possible Solutions:
Since 1 the hardcore evil prone Muslims cannot be changed, cured easily, taught or educated to change easily then the other option is to review the 2nd element, i.e. the evil laden elements in the Quran.

1. The first rational solution is to get rid of the evil laden elements in the Quran. They don't have any significant contribution to one being a Muslim, Mu'min or Mushin. But these evil laden verses cannot be removed otherwise the edited Quran will not be Islam as Allah intended it to be [perfect].

2. Since the first option is not possible, then the next rational thing to do [at least theoretical] is to wean off Islam and convince all Muslims to choose any other better religion.

3 Perhaps it would be more effective to convince the 80% of moderate Muslims to choose other non-Islam alternative to deal with their unavoidable existential dilemma. When the majority of Muslims change to other alternative the moral support to the minority will be less effective for them to commit evils and violence.

From these moves [2 and 3] I am 100% there will be no more Quran-inspired evils and violence.

The above suggestions are merely theoretical and not very practical.
Because it is not practical, humanity is left with a permanent and hope-less situation.

Nevertheless I am very optimistic humanity will be able to resolve the above problem in the future when it has the advance knowledge and technologies [given the current exponential trend of knowledge advancement] to wean off all religions.
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Old 03-30-2016, 02:55 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have already mentioned these are the evil prone Muslims who cannot be taught and educated to do good at all.
You are wrong! All of them can be taught. They have already been taught and they can be taught more.

Quote:
I suggest you brush up on basic Psychology and made an attempt to understand human behaviors and the deviants and those with abnormal psychology. If say, 10% of humans are vulnerable to abnormal psychology, i.e. 700 millions, those who are likely to be educated and changed are probably 1%, the rest of the 9%, i.e. 630 millions are hardcore and cannot be cured significantly by education and teaching.
The only way to cure them effectively is to give them strong drugs which may have side effects.
The reason we have psychologists working in the education systems is precisely to understand the behaviour of the learners and find the solution to (a) improve their behaviour and (b) help them learn better. Even the children with SEN can be taught with methods suited to them only. The idea that millions of people cannot be taught is senseless and self-defeatist.

Quote:
Try educating some of the hardcore criminals [serial killers, rapists, child rapists, pedophile and other] in prisons. There were many prisoners who seemed to have improved but once let out they continue with their crimes. The only solutions to prevent these hardcore cases is to keep them in prison permanently or drug them [which is immoral and not acceptable].
Many do improve with more education and are no longer hardcore. Others did not have enough education and were let out early.

Quote:
The problem with our discussion is you are ignorant of a lot of peripheral and critical human knowledge, e.g. human behaviors and psychology, religion and spirituality in general, philosophy, linguistic and general knowledge.
You are judging me here in ignorance about me.

Quote:
Even with your focus on Islam, your knowledge of Islam is not extensive and in depth since you read the Quran only 6-7 times.
That is a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black.
Quote:
Btw, what is your background and specialty, i.e. before you retired.
FYI, education and engineering as well as several other interests including home improvements such as painting, decorating, gardening, wiring, installing central heating. Reading and understanding not only the Qur'an but also the Torah (5 books) and the Gospels. These are just a few of my interests. My daughters are graduates and highly qualified educators.

Therefore, when you talk about any aspect of education, you are talking with someone who understands how to educate those who you would regard as unable to be educated. They can all learn more if they have working brain.

Quote:
What I have done is not condoning their evil actions. What I have done is identifying the effective critical root causes of the problem of Quran inspired evils and violence, i.e.
1. the evil prone Muslims
2. the evil laden elements in the Quran
It is not the Qur'an inspired evils and violence as the Qur'an has not inspired me to do evil and be violent even though I too have potential to do evil. The Qur'an has inspired me to be peaceful. The critical root causes are politics of the Middle East and injustice. Get rid of those root causes and there would be no more claims of inspiration from the Qur'an. Even the terrorists are giving the reason of attacks on their countries for their action but use some verses out of context to recruit more jihadists. When you agree with them, in the matter of the Qur'an, you effectively fall in their trap.

Quote:
The Possible Solutions:
Since 1 the hardcore evil prone Muslims cannot be changed, cured easily, taught or educated to change easily then the other option is to review the 2nd element, i.e. the evil laden elements in the Quran.
As you begin with false premise you finish with false solution. What you perceive as the evil laden elements in the Qur'an are in reality justice laden elements in the Qur'an.

Quote:
1. The first rational solution is to get rid of the evil laden elements in the Quran. They don't have any significant contribution to one being a Muslim, Mu'min or Mushin. But these evil laden verses cannot be removed otherwise the edited Quran will not be Islam as Allah intended it to be [perfect].
These justice laden verses can't be removed or else justice will be removed from the Qur'an.

Quote:
2. Since the first option is not possible, then the next rational thing to do [at least theoretical] is to wean off Islam and convince all Muslims to choose any other better religion.
That is the most irrational suggestion so far from you.

Quote:
3 Perhaps it would be more effective to convince the 80% of moderate Muslims to choose other non-Islam alternative to deal with their unavoidable existential dilemma. When the majority of Muslims change to other alternative the moral support to the minority will be less effective for them to commit evils and violence.
Actually, removing the minority support from you would be a very good beginning. It is really stupid to suggest that even the peaceful majority change to something else. Why not suggest that the minority change to Christianity; half become Catholics and the other half Protestants. I think that might be the better solution.

Quote:
Nevertheless I am very optimistic humanity will be able to resolve the above problem in the future when it has the advance knowledge and technologies [given the current exponential trend of knowledge advancement] to wean off all religions.
If that is your conclusion in your master project then you have failed miserably just as I had expected you to do.
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