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Old 03-29-2016, 01:10 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,044,763 times
Reputation: 289

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You seem to be that ignorant of the concept of degrees.
Strong or weak in any variable can be translated into degrees and percentage.
Something is wrong with you if you cannot understand this point.
It is not the Eeman you are talking about here as if Eeman itself is weak or strong. When a person is weak in Eeman, he is weak in faith. I am sure you still haven't understood this point.

Quote:
The concentration of liquid is often refer to being 'strong' or 'weak.'
This concentration can be translated to percentages and degrees.
Whisky is strong liquor and normally has 40% alcohol or 40 degrees. Beer is weak in alcohol with 6-7% or degrees.
Now think carefully of whisky being strong and beer being weak. Think them as persons and alcohol as eeman (LOL). Both have alcohol but one is strong and the weak. The same way a person can be strong believer or weak believer. Both have eeman. One is strong in his eeman (faith) and the other weak in his eeman (faith). Eeman (faith) itself is not weak or strong.

Quote:
Affirming the Shahada only make one a new Muslim. A new Muslim has very low eeman.
Disagree. Nobody becomes a new Muslim when being weak in Eeman. It takes a srong believer (stong in faith/eeman) to become a Muslim.

Quote:
Chapter 23:1-11 Al-Muminun will give you an idea of what is a Mu'min.

1. Successful indeed are the believers [almu'minoona ]
2. ..Who are humble in their prayers,
3. ..And who shun vain conversation,
4. ..And who are payers of the poor due [zakat];
5. ..And who guard their modesty,
6. ...Save [except] from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy,
7. But whoso [sinners] craveth beyond that, such are transgressors [sinners],
8. ..And who [Muslims] are shepherds of thee pledge and their covenant,
9. ..And who pay heed to their prayers.
10. These [Muslims] are the heirs,
11. Who will inherit Paradise: There they will abide.
You fail to understand these verses. These verses are not telling you what is a Mu'min but what the Mu'minun need to do to become successful. All the attributes (2-10) are of a Muslim. The Mu'minun are already Mu'minun but to be successful they have to have attributes of a Muslim to be successful.

Quote:
There are other verses that describe what it takes to be a Mu'min.
23:1-11 are not descibing what it takes to be a Mu'min but what will take the Mu'minun to be Muslimun and successful. They are not being told in 23 as to what they have to do to be Mu'minun (they are already Mu'minun) but what Mu'minun have to do to be successful.

Quote:
It is impossible for a new Muslim [recent convert] to have strong eeman.
Eeman comprised of a set of activities [mental and physical] that need to be done, e.g. those in 23:1-11 to enable a new Muslim to reach the stage of a Mu'min.
You are taking it the wrong way round. All these activities are to be done by Mu'minun and not to become Mu'minun. Mu'minun (who are already Mu'minun) are being directed to do what Muslims do. Mu'minun believe but Muslims submit as well. In 23, Mu'minun are being directed to submit too to be successful.

Quote:
A new Muslim is likely to have a strong feeling of submission but low eeman.
He has strong Eeman (feeling of) but is just beginning to do submission practically.

Quote:
A new Muslim need time to develop and perform all the actions [the eeman set] necessary to qualify as a Mu'mim.
Eeman is reflected in actions (submission) of a Muslim.

Quote:
Once a Muslim achieve the stage of Mu'min s/he can progress to qualify as a Mushin after s/he has completed merits/goodness.
One is a Muslim only after believing (having Eeman = being Mu'min). Muslim is also a Mu'hsin.

On reflection, I shouldn't criicize you for your understanding of Mu'min and Muslim being the wrong way round. Many Muslims too think the same way as you do simply because they have been told so. I have studied the Qur'an deeper and have clear understanding of the two terms. They were called Mu'minun/Mu'hmineen in the beginning when not all commands had been revealed and Islam (Submission) perfected.
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Old 03-30-2016, 12:45 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
It is not the Eeman you are talking about here as if Eeman itself is weak or strong. When a person is weak in Eeman, he is weak in faith. I am sure you still haven't understood this point.

Disagree. Nobody becomes a new Muslim when being weak in Eeman. It takes a srong believer (stong in faith/eeman) to become a Muslim.

You fail to understand these verses. These verses are not telling you what is a Mu'min but what the Mu'minun need to do to become successful. All the attributes (2-10) are of a Muslim. The Mu'minun are already Mu'minun but to be successful they have to have attributes of a Muslim to be successful.

23:1-11 are not descibing what it takes to be a Mu'min but what will take the Mu'minun to be Muslimun and successful. They are not being told in 23 as to what they have to do to be Mu'minun (they are already Mu'minun) but what Mu'minun have to do to be successful.

You are taking it the wrong way round. All these activities are to be done by Mu'minun and not to become Mu'minun. Mu'minun (who are already Mu'minun) are being directed to do what Muslims do. Mu'minun believe but Muslims submit as well. In 23, Mu'minun are being directed to submit too to be successful.

He has strong Eeman (feeling of) but is just beginning to do submission practically.

Eeman is reflected in actions (submission) of a Muslim.

One is a Muslim only after believing (having Eeman = being Mu'min). Muslim is also a Mu'hsin.

On reflection, I shouldn't criicize you for your understanding of Mu'min and Muslim being the wrong way round. Many Muslims too think the same way as you do simply because they have been told so. I have studied the Qur'an deeper and have clear understanding of the two terms. They were called Mu'minun/Mu'hmineen in the beginning when not all commands had been revealed and Islam (Submission) perfected.
You have only read the Quran 6-7 times meaning it is not likely you can understand the Quran in a deeper sense.

You need to read the Quran at least 50 times to be aware of all the subtle nuances in the various verses and the combination of various verses within the Quran to get a deeper meaning of the Quran.

It is most likely you may have read more of the tafsir and commentaries by various scholars and you think you have a deeper understanding of the Quran.
From what you have posted, I don't think you have a deeper meaning of the Quran and Islam.

From what you have posted, your understand of the distinction between a specific Muslim and specific Mu'min it very superficial.
You think in 49:14 the wandering Arabs had submitted to Muhammad, which is blasphemous. Besides you are relying only on Asad [1 view] whereas I note 45 other English translators agree the wandering Arabs submitted to Allah, NOT to Muhammad.
In addition I have read the views of Islamic scholars on their interpretation of 49:14 as a support for distinction between 'Muslim' and 'Mu'min,' and they all agree with my view that the wandering Arabs submitted to Allah, not Muhammad or someone else.

It is not that I simply agree with the views of those Islamic scholar who share the same views with me on this issue re 49:14 and Muslim versus Mu'min. The point is this common views is also supported by other knowledge from the fields of individual development in religion, spirituality and other competencies.


Quote:
1 Now think carefully of whisky being strong and beer being weak.
2 Think them as persons and alcohol as eeman (LOL).
3 Both have alcohol but one is strong and the weak. T
he same way a person can be strong believer or weak believer. Both have eeman.
4 One is strong in his eeman (faith) and the other weak in his eeman (faith).
5 Eeman (faith) itself is not weak or strong.
My point re whisky and beer was to show they all have relative degrees and percentages of strength.
You example don't make any sense to me, 4 and 5 is contradictory.
Create another example.

My point again;
1. A Muslim [specific] is one who has submitted [proper].
2. A Mu'min [specific] is a Muslim [loose] who has strong Eeman based on performance.
3. A Mushin [specific] is a Muslim [loose] who has strong Inhsaan.

Suggest you use my above basis to give your counter views.
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Old 03-30-2016, 02:28 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
On reflection, I shouldn't criicize you for your understanding of Mu'min and Muslim being the wrong way round.
Many Muslims too think the same way as you do simply because they have been told so. I have studied the Qur'an deeper and have clear understanding of the two terms. They were called Mu'minun/Mu'hmineen in the beginning when not all commands had been revealed and Islam (Submission) perfected.
You are clinging on to fool's gold
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrite
and thinking you rich holding real gold.

So far you are the only one holding your own views.
Show me some references who share the same views of yours?

It is possible for one person to be correct with his view and the majority are wrong, e.g. Copernicus who provide sound justifications and is subsequently verified by Science.
But in your case, your view are not supported by reasonable justifications and don't make sense at all.

I have read of many views of Islamic scholars and other views which are the same as mine and I agree with their core views in relation to the distinction between Muslim and Mu'min and their respective qualities.
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Old 03-30-2016, 03:17 AM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,044,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are clinging on to fool's gold
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrite
and thinking you rich holding real gold.
Wikipedia can't teach you about Islam. For that you have to learn from the Qur'an.

Quote:
So far you are the only one holding your own views.
Show me some references who share the same views of yours?
The Qur'an.

Quote:
It is possible for one person to be correct with his view and the majority are wrong, e.g. Copernicus who provide sound justifications and is subsequently verified by Science.
But in your case, your view are not supported by reasonable justifications and don't make sense at all.

I have read of many views of Islamic scholars and other views which are the same as mine and I agree with their core views in relation to the distinction between Muslim and Mu'min and their respective qualities.
Many Islamic scholars are teaching many Muslims wrongly. Everyone of the believers of the Qur'anic revelation was called Mu'min during the time the Qur'an was being revealed. They had to learn how and what submission to the commands is, and which commands they had to obey. They then progressed to be known as Muslims because of their submission to Allah because of them obeying the commands. They had progressed from believing to submitting. Submitting after believing is to Allah. Submitting without believing is not submitting to Allah.

Do you know why they were not called Muslimeen from the outset but only Mu'mineen?
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Old 03-30-2016, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You have only read the Quran 6-7 times meaning it is not likely you can understand the Quran in a deeper sense.

You need to read the Quran at least 50 times to be aware of all the subtle nuances in the various verses and the combination of various verses within the Quran to get a deeper meaning of the Quran.

It is most likely you may have read more of the tafsir and commentaries by various scholars and you think you have a deeper understanding of the Quran.
From what you have posted, I don't think you have a deeper meaning of the Quran and Islam.

From what you have posted, your understand of the distinction between a specific Muslim and specific Mu'min it very superficial.
You think in 49:14 the wandering Arabs had submitted to Muhammad, which is blasphemous. Besides you are relying only on Asad [1 view] whereas I note 45 other English translators agree the wandering Arabs submitted to Allah, NOT to Muhammad.
In addition I have read the views of Islamic scholars on their interpretation of 49:14 as a support for distinction between 'Muslim' and 'Mu'min,' and they all agree with my view that the wandering Arabs submitted to Allah, not Muhammad or someone else.

It is not that I simply agree with the views of those Islamic scholar who share the same views with me on this issue re 49:14 and Muslim versus Mu'min. The point is this common views is also supported by other knowledge from the fields of individual development in religion, spirituality and other competencies.


My point re whisky and beer was to show they all have relative degrees and percentages of strength.
You example don't make any sense to me, 4 and 5 is contradictory.
Create another example.

My point again;
1. A Muslim [specific] is one who has submitted [proper].
2. A Mu'min [specific] is a Muslim [loose] who has strong Eeman based on performance.
3. A Mushin [specific] is a Muslim [loose] who has strong Inhsaan.

Suggest you use my above basis to give your counter views.
Quote:
You have only read the Quran 6-7 times meaning it is not likely you can understand the Quran in a deeper sense.
My question is have you ever read the Qur'an or have you read translations?

It does take at least 30 hours to read it with the grasp of the pronunciation of each word, which is only approximated in writing. You will find that most Qur'an teachers find that even a Native speaker of Arabic will require a minimum of 3 years to learn to read it for the first time. Yes the Message of the Qur'an is very clear and easy to understand. But the meaning of the Qur'an becomes very individual based upon a person's intentions. I do not know if this quality can be achieved in translations.

A large part of learning the Qur'an is the learning of how the changes of pronunciation of a word changes the connotation of it. This is somewhat difficult to achieve in a reading and much more more difficult to explain in a translation.

The number of times a person has read the Qur'an is not really indicative of their knowledge. An actual Qur'anic Student will spend at least 3 years to complete their first reading. And if a person is reading it properly a single reading after learning how to read it can take longer. I Know I have "read" the Qur'an at least 120 times. Once a month for a little over 10 years. But I still have not finished my first reading with proper Tajweed and Have hardly finshed Juz Jamma which is only one 30th of the Qur'an. At this rate it is going to take me 300 years to complete my first reading. Although I have "Read" the Qur'an over 100 times.

If Khalif has properly read it 3 times. Je has read it many more times than I have and I first read it in 1963 and before accepting Islam read it (with the wrong intentions) many times between 1963 and 2005. Although I never read a translation until after I accepted Islam.

For a person to have properly read the Qur'an 3 times in their lifetime is actually a remarkable accomplishment. I congratulate Khalif for his accomplishment and give respect to his Eeman.

Among many Muslims especially among Pakistani and Arab Muslims the time a person completes their first reading of the Qur'an is time for a big congratulatory celebration comparable with a College graduation and it usually takes as much time and work as attaining a Baccalaureate

To actually complete a reading of the Qur'an can be a much greater accomplishment then even becoming Hafiz(a person who has memorized the Qur'an) It is possible to be a Hafiz and not perform Islam. But a person has to perform Islam to "Read" the Qur'an
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Old 03-30-2016, 02:04 PM
 
3,168 posts, read 1,044,763 times
Reputation: 289
For a Muslim to read the Qur'an (in Arabic) for the first time is always wonderful feeling. Although I had read some of it in my school days, I read the whole from beginning to the end for the first time in 1960. I was so pleased with the achiement. I still remember the moment, sitting on the floor of our local masjid.

Since then, i have concentrated on understanding the meanings of various words and verses. English translations are good but not always accurate enough because some words can't be translated properly in one English word. For this reason, when reading the translations, I always check, if in any doubt, with the Arabic Qur'an.This give me a better understanding of a word or of a verse in the Qur'an. Although Arabic is not my first language, I do understand, say, more than half of the Arabic words in the Qur'an. For the rest I rely on the translations that I have in two different languages.

My serious study of the Qur'an began in February 2000 when on my first journey to Makkah. I now understand the Qur'an, its guidance and wisdom that I was not aware of in all those years already gone. I wish I had studied it properly much earlier.
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Old 03-30-2016, 11:28 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Wikipedia can't teach you about Islam. For that you have to learn from the Qur'an.
This off the point.
My point re "fool's gold" imply you think you know the truths of the Quran in this particular context, but actually you are merely clinging to your own false interpretation out of context.

Quote:
The Qur'an.
Anyone can claim that.
In your case, it is only based on your personal opinion which is subjective and do not make sense at al.

Quote:
Many Islamic scholars are teaching many Muslims wrongly. Everyone of the believers of the Qur'anic revelation was called Mu'min during the time the Qur'an was being revealed. They had to learn how and what submission to the commands is, and which commands they had to obey. They then progressed to be known as Muslims because of their submission to Allah because of them obeying the commands. They had progressed from believing to submitting. Submitting after believing is to Allah. Submitting without believing is not submitting to Allah.
I agree many Islamic scholars are teaching many Muslim wrongly on certain aspects of the Quran, especially when they rely on other secondary sources as divine [Ahadith] instead of solely Allah's word from the Quran.

However in this case of 49:14 you got is wrong in thinking the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad.

Note at the time the Quran was revealed all [those who submitted] were called "Muslims" in general from the time to Abraham. These were the one who submitted to Allah and accepted the Quran-of-old before Muhammad.
After Muhammad, those who submitted to Allah and accept Muhammad as messenger were new "Muslims" [specific]. These new Muslims can only become Mu'min after they have strong Eeman when faith has entered into their hearts.

Quote:
Do you know why they were not called Muslimeen from the outset but only Mu'mineen?
This is merely your opinion.
The onus is on you to support your opinion not for me to guess your opinion.
So what is your justifications from the Quran,
"why they were not called Muslimeen from the outset but only Mu'mineen?"

As a counter to however you justified, note
39:12 And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).
Allah stated, first is to be Muslim, Allah did not state first to be Mu'min.
To be a Mu'min one has to work hard for it in developing strong Eeman.
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Old 03-31-2016, 12:06 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,726 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
My question is have you ever read the Qur'an or have you read translations?

It does take at least 30 hours to read it with the grasp of the pronunciation of each word, which is only approximated in writing. You will find that most Qur'an teachers find that even a Native speaker of Arabic will require a minimum of 3 years to learn to read it for the first time. Yes the Message of the Qur'an is very clear and easy to understand. But the meaning of the Qur'an becomes very individual based upon a person's intentions. I do not know if this quality can be achieved in translations.

A large part of learning the Qur'an is the learning of how the changes of pronunciation of a word changes the connotation of it. This is somewhat difficult to achieve in a reading and much more more difficult to explain in a translation.

The number of times a person has read the Qur'an is not really indicative of their knowledge. An actual Qur'anic Student will spend at least 3 years to complete their first reading. And if a person is reading it properly a single reading after learning how to read it can take longer. I Know I have "read" the Qur'an at least 120 times. Once a month for a little over 10 years. But I still have not finished my first reading with proper Tajweed and Have hardly finshed Juz Jamma which is only one 30th of the Qur'an. At this rate it is going to take me 300 years to complete my first reading. Although I have "Read" the Qur'an over 100 times.

If Khalif has properly read it 3 times. Je has read it many more times than I have and I first read it in 1963 and before accepting Islam read it (with the wrong intentions) many times between 1963 and 2005. Although I never read a translation until after I accepted Islam.

For a person to have properly read the Qur'an 3 times in their lifetime is actually a remarkable accomplishment. I congratulate Khalif for his accomplishment and give respect to his Eeman.

Among many Muslims especially among Pakistani and Arab Muslims the time a person completes their first reading of the Qur'an is time for a big congratulatory celebration comparable with a College graduation and it usually takes as much time and work as attaining a Baccalaureate

To actually complete a reading of the Qur'an can be a much greater accomplishment then even becoming Hafiz(a person who has memorized the Qur'an) It is possible to be a Hafiz and not perform Islam. But a person has to perform Islam to "Read" the Qur'an
I have argued before there is not much difference whether one read the Quran in Arabic or in English if one is intellectually aggressive enough to get the best of the situation with the following reinforcements;

1. I read one main English translations [Pickthall] and refer to 45 others when in doubt.
2. Read as widely as possible on all matters relating to the Quran, i.e. tafsir, commentaries, etc.
3. Read with an objective approach, not subjective.
4. Discuss with others [this is why I am in this forum].
5. Be competent in the Theory and Philosophy of Linguistics.
6. Be familiar with the Philosophy of Religions and Spirituality.
7. Be very familiar with all other mainstream religions.
8. Be very familiar with human nature and psychology.
9. Step into the shoes of Muslim and 'Allah'
10. Whatever is deem to be relevant to under the Quran.

With the above reinforcements one will get the main gist and core message of the Quran. There are no secrets in the Quran than cannot be known or understood by a person with intellectual competence and integrity.

After having read the Quran more than 50 times including analyzing it in minute details, I can read the whole of the Quran's 6,236 verses within 10 hours and less if I read the subsequent immediately.

To facilitate quick reading I have done the following;
1. In the Quran [Pickthall] I have, for each pronoun [almost all] I have put in parenthesis the actual person/people who are referred to. Otherwise it can be confusing to know who 'I' 'me' 'they' 'them' and others refer to in the verse.
2. For every verse I have smoothen the kinks so that it can be easily read and understood.
3. I have a summary of each verse in a column beside the main one.
4. I also have a summary for each chapter.
5. I highlighted the critical words in bold and large fonts.
6. I add notes to each verse.
7. I include other translations if they are better than the Pickthall translations.
8. I have analyzed the verses in 300+ main and sub- subjects, categories, criteria, etc.

The problem I face [no incentive since I am not a Muslim] is only that it is not easy to hold the understanding of all 6,236 verses at one time in my finger tips.

Anyone who has my copy of the Quran in electronic form [Excel Spreadsheet] will have no problem reading it within 10 hours or less after the first [which may take a bit longer due to initial] reading.

I believe reading the whole Quran 6-7 times is not sufficient to gather the various nuances [minute in depth points] to grasp the full ethos of the Quran and Islam.
I believe one has to read the Quran at least 50 times and more, of course reinforced by the addition materials from 1-8 I listed above.
I will be reading the Quran with in depth reflection and detailed reflection for at least another 20 times or more.

Your question,
"My question is have you ever read the Qur'an or have you read translations?"
do not apply to me.

It is a farce whenever Muslims try to give excuses that the Quran should only be read in Arabic.

The toughest book I have ever read is Kant's Critique of Pure Reason [CPR] where the original is in German. I have managed to understand the central message and all the nuances of it after reading more than 50 times from 7 English translations. So there is no problem even reading such a tough translated book with the help of cross checking with other materials [Buddhism's principles was of a great help]. The Quran as compared to the CPR is peanuts and ABC.
You mentioned you have read the CPR and if read less than 5 times, your understanding of it will be very limited.
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Old 03-31-2016, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,311,550 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I have argued before there is not much difference whether one read the Quran in Arabic or in English if one is intellectually aggressive enough to get the best of the situation with the following reinforcements;

1. I read one main English translations [Pickthall] and refer to 45 others when in doubt.
2. Read as widely as possible on all matters relating to the Quran, i.e. tafsir, commentaries, etc.
3. Read with an objective approach, not subjective.
4. Discuss with others [this is why I am in this forum].
5. Be competent in the Theory and Philosophy of Linguistics.
6. Be familiar with the Philosophy of Religions and Spirituality.
7. Be very familiar with all other mainstream religions.
8. Be very familiar with human nature and psychology.
9. Step into the shoes of Muslim and 'Allah'
10. Whatever is deem to be relevant to under the Quran.

With the above reinforcements one will get the main gist and core message of the Quran. There are no secrets in the Quran than cannot be known or understood by a person with intellectual competence and integrity.

After having read the Quran more than 50 times including analyzing it in minute details, I can read the whole of the Quran's 6,236 verses within 10 hours and less if I read the subsequent immediately.

To facilitate quick reading I have done the following;
1. In the Quran [Pickthall] I have, for each pronoun [almost all] I have put in parenthesis the actual person/people who are referred to. Otherwise it can be confusing to know who 'I' 'me' 'they' 'them' and others refer to in the verse.
2. For every verse I have smoothen the kinks so that it can be easily read and understood.
3. I have a summary of each verse in a column beside the main one.
4. I also have a summary for each chapter.
5. I highlighted the critical words in bold and large fonts.
6. I add notes to each verse.
7. I include other translations if they are better than the Pickthall translations.
8. I have analyzed the verses in 300+ main and sub- subjects, categories, criteria, etc.

The problem I face [no incentive since I am not a Muslim] is only that it is not easy to hold the understanding of all 6,236 verses at one time in my finger tips.

Anyone who has my copy of the Quran in electronic form [Excel Spreadsheet] will have no problem reading it within 10 hours or less after the first [which may take a bit longer due to initial] reading.

I believe reading the whole Quran 6-7 times is not sufficient to gather the various nuances [minute in depth points] to grasp the full ethos of the Quran and Islam.
I believe one has to read the Quran at least 50 times and more, of course reinforced by the addition materials from 1-8 I listed above.
I will be reading the Quran with in depth reflection and detailed reflection for at least another 20 times or more.

Your question,
"My question is have you ever read the Qur'an or have you read translations?"
do not apply to me.

It is a farce whenever Muslims try to give excuses that the Quran should only be read in Arabic.

The toughest book I have ever read is Kant's Critique of Pure Reason [CPR] where the original is in German. I have managed to understand the central message and all the nuances of it after reading more than 50 times from 7 English translations. So there is no problem even reading such a tough translated book with the help of cross checking with other materials [Buddhism's principles was of a great help]. The Quran as compared to the CPR is peanuts and ABC.
You mentioned you have read the CPR and if read less than 5 times, your understanding of it will be very limited.
For starters the concepts of pronouns are different in Arabic.. There is a a concept of ownership that is reflected by variations in the spelling of the Nouns and verbs. As Arabic is not an Indo-European language you do not have the same parts of speech that are found in English and other Indo-European languages. They do not even have similar grammar rules.

If you are reading the Qur'an in less than 30 hours you are missing the interplay of the groups, each Surah is repeated 3 times, each addressed to a specific group. But then again I could be just expressing my dislike of every translation I have read. Although I rather like the Spanish and French translations and of the English translation find Assad's interpretation to come closer to the Arabic meanings than the attempts at translations. While Assad is not a translation he carries the concepts better than the translations do.

French and Spanish translations come closer to the connotation of the Arabic than the English does, possibly because there was quite a bit of Arabic influence in those 2 languages. They also do not reflect the violence that English imparts

An example using everybody's favorite 9:5

Faitha insalakha alashhuru alhurumu faoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohum waohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadin fain taboo waaqamoo alssalata waatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. - 9:5 (Picktall)

Après que les mois sacrés expirent, tuez les associateurs où que vous les trouviez. Capturez-les, assiégez-les et guettez-les dans toute embuscade. Si ensuite ils se repentent, accomplissent la Salat et acquittent la Zakat, alors laissez-leur la voie libre, car Allah est Pardonneur et Miséricordieux. - 9:5 (French)

tuez les associateurs comes much closer to the meaning of faoqtuloo almushrikeena Than slay the idolaters as it has with it a concept of "Rendering Helpless" which may or may not include killing. It would be quite difficult to take them captive if they were slain as what the ayyat says to do. Rendering helpless is keeping more in line with the Arabic.

Also guettez-les dans toute embuscade "wait for them in every level"--is far less violent sounding then

and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush
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Old 03-31-2016, 12:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree many Islamic scholars are teaching many Muslim wrongly on certain aspects of the Quran, especially when they rely on other secondary sources as divine [Ahadith] instead of solely Allah's word from the Quran.

However in this case of 49:14 you got is wrong in thinking the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad.
As Asad pointed out, other translators were wrong to translate it submitting to Allah when those desert Arabs were not even believing Allah. How could they have been submitting to Allah when they were not even believing Allah???
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