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Old 04-12-2016, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
You need to understand that this is discussing Islam forum. In this forum, it is the Islamic/Qur'anic terms. These are not secular loose terms. Bringing in secular loose terms to discuss Islam will not work here.
You need to understand we are all human beings on a progressive trend. What I am proposing is based on being a progressive human being and such override all other basis be it religion, Science or any other knowledge.

Quote:
The Qur'an is clear that one believes (has eeman) first before submitting. This is how Asad is the only one who used the whole Qur'an context in understanding 9:14. The rest are like pawn pushers in a chess game. They have ignored the Qur'anic context.
Who is Asad by the way, he is not Allah. In some cases of his translations you do not agree with him when he used the term "Muslims to vie with another."
The odds are stacked against you when Asad is 1 against 45 other English translator on the translation of 49:14.
This is obvious Asad was wrong unless he can justify his translation solidly with objective proofs.

Quote:
In the Qur'an, there is only precise sense. It is repeated many times. Each time it is those with eeman (precise term) and never in secular loose term.
The general linguistic principles of strict and loose are universal in all languages thus including Arabic as used in the Quran.

Quote:
In this forum, logical thinking is thinking with the Qur'an and its guidance in mind. You are thinking with secular logic.
Mine is not specific secular logic but human logic which overrides all other thinking, i.e. in the Quran and wherever proper thinking is expected.
There should be logic within the Quran, e.g. the need to explain whatever contradiction there is in the Quran. But overall the Quran is subject to general human logic which it does not pass because it insist God exists when in reality and logically God do not exists.

The belief in Islam and the Quran is only logical when explain in terms of the psychological desperations that drive believers to cling to an illusory God. Even when God is illusory, I know it will work to resolve the specific psychological desperation threatening the theists.

Quote:
In Islam, to be a Mu'min you have to believe (have eeman) that God is One God and His message you believe (have eeman in). This will render you "Mu'min". You can be Mu'min for 50 years but you still won't have vaerified knowledge that God is One. It will still be having eeman.
You are refusing to recognize the reality of human nature where "believe" always exists in the strict and loose sense plus the range between this two extremes.

Quote:
You are thinking in secular loose terms that can become verified terms. In Islam, the only time having eeman would be verified to be true or false would be in the hereafter. The point to note here is that if there is no hereafter, a believer (mu'min) has lost nothing. But if there is hereafter, he is in win win position and an unbeliever (who had no eeman) in only lose lose position. Logical thinking would be to get into win win position before you are in a lose lose position and too late to rectify it.
It is not a case of secular or theological.
Allah applied the strict and loose terms in the Quran and 'believe' is one of them.
A Muslim has to understand believe [eeman] in the strict and specific terms of progressing with the 6 pillars of eeman instead of the believing as a beginner Muslim before the submission.

Quote:
It is same for reverts. They don't become Muslims again blindly. There is always certain degree of belief that is sufficient for them to make a move.
I agree with this, there is a certain degree of belief before the submit BUT this degree of belief is low or weak eeman.
To cultivate strong eeman a Muslim must perform the 6 pillars of eeman to achieve sufficient degree of eeman to qualify as a mu'min in the strict sense.

Quote:
Even if you go in to view the house from inside (I have done it several times), there is still no guarantee that there are no hidden defects in the house. The same applies to someone thinking it is a bad house and regret it later on for the mistake.
That is my point.
To know the truth and have a stronger belief the person must stay in the house long enough to know all the defects. So time and experience is a critical factor.
Thus time and experience is critical factor for a Muslim to be an advance mu'min [strict] and that need the acquisition of more knowledge of Islam and practices.
A new Muslim who has just submitted cannot be an advance mu'mim because it is a fact his time as a Muslim is very short, he don't have enough knowledge and done sufficient practices.

Quote:
That is belief in secular sense. Belief in God is not the same that you can verify after living in a marriage with God.
I have stated belief is a mental effort which is the same for all human beings in all situations including in a belief in God that do not exists.
While God is not real, what is going on in the brain in relation to belief [in whatever] is really active with the neurons in the brain. This can be observed via fMRI imagings.
The Quran [not from God] provide guidance on how to develop one's belief in God via various sets of procedures, e.g. pillars of islam, eeman, ihsaan, tagwa, muttagin, al-albabi, etc.

[/quote]You can't understand religious thinking because you are too much into secular thinking and secular terms. Comparing spirit with matter or energy with hammer is senseless.[/quote]Btw, I was a theist for more than 20 years and I understand what is the psychology involved and what was going on inside by brain then. I have done very extensive research on the major religions and spirituality in the world. Plus my forte is Eastern and Western Philosophy.
You? from what I gather all you know about religion is Islam and that is only after reading the Quran [the critical core of Islam] 6-7 times.

Quote:
Belief in Allah is not the same as belief about another person you have already met and touched.
The principles of belief is the same in all human beings just like all human beings has the same digestive system and other generic systems.
The difference is only in what and the contents that are believed.
Obviously believing in empirical elements that are verifiable are more reliable and objective as knowledge.

Believing in God and other elements that are not verifiable is subjective and unrealiable.
Such believing is purely for psychological purposes, i.e. to soothe one's terrible psychological pains.
In believing non-empirical [unverifiable] things one can believe in anything and no one can stop you from believing such unnatural and irrational things, i.e. UFOs, bigfoot, ghosts, angels, and the extreme of all, i.e. the illusory God.
No one will bother an irrational belief if one keep it private and personal, but the problem is theists [many] impose their private nonsensical belief of God on others to the extent of committing terrible evils and violence on non-believers. This is when theists need to provide empirical proofs if they insist their god exists to command actions that are dangerous and offensive to non-believers.

Quote:
Again, you are stuck in secular terms and secular thinking. Such believing is not eeman. When Allah says, "O you who believe", it does not mean believing in a house or a person but Allah, His message and His messenger (all at the exact same time in one go). In religious terms, believing Messenger is completely different from believing Muhammad.
As I had explained, believing is a mental effort and it is the same for all aspects of human activities.
The critical difference between rational beliefs and irrational beliefs is a matter of proofs.
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Old 04-18-2016, 01:38 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I agree with this, there is a certain degree of belief before the submit BUT this degree of belief is low or weak eeman.
Then Asad was the only one right about 49:14 translation. Wandering Arabs had no eeman and had not, therefore, submitted to Allah.

Quote:
To cultivate strong eeman a Muslim must perform the 6 pillars of eeman to achieve sufficient degree of eeman to qualify as a mu'min in the strict sense.
6 pillars of faith are not for performing as are 5 pillars of Islam for performing. 6 pillars of faith are 6 subsections of belief. Each one is belief related to faith in Allah.
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Old 04-18-2016, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
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Eeman is also transliterated as Iman as the letter yaa has no English counterpart but it has a pronunciation between a short I and EE

Imân comes from the Arabic root amana, whose original linguistic meaning signifies calmness of the soul and freedom from fear. It also means safety and security, which result from a sound relationship with Allah. (Also, the related word amâna refers to a sacred trust that has been given to someone, who then must protect and fulfill that trust, whether it is a promise, safeguarding someone’s property, secret, reputation, and the like.
Safety and Faith: The Meaning of Iman

It is also closly related to Ameen which has the same root A-M-N (Amana) Alif-Meem-Noon in Arabic the Hebrew letters being Alef-Mem-Nun

Ameen (also pronounced Ahmen, Aymen, Amen or Amin) is a word which is used in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam to express agreement with God's truth. It is believed to have originated from an ancient Semitic word consisting of three consonants: A-M-N.
http://islam.about.com/od/prayer/f/E...With-Ameen.htm
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Old 04-18-2016, 11:26 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Then Asad was the only one right about 49:14 translation. Wandering Arabs had no eeman and had not, therefore, submitted to Allah.
The wandering Arabs technically had low or weak eeman [loose sense] which is obvious and that is why Allah did not refer to that.
What Allah intended was the wandering do not had strong eeman [strict] or strong belief [strict].

Quote:
6 pillars of faith are not for performing as are 5 pillars of Islam for performing. 6 pillars of faith are 6 subsections of belief. Each one is belief related to faith in Allah.
The pillars of faith [strict] or eeman [strict] do not appear from no where. A Muslim must do [perform] what is necessary to enable the degree of eeman to increase as per 48:4 with Allah facilitating it.
To perform [do what is necessary] a Muslim must at least read the Quran or learn for an expert of what is required to be done. Then one must cultivate the necessary devotion by various mental processes [not physical like the pillars of Islam].
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Old 04-18-2016, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,590,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Eeman is also transliterated as Iman as the letter yaa has no English counterpart but it has a pronunciation between a short I and EE

Imân comes from the Arabic root amana, whose original linguistic meaning signifies calmness of the soul and freedom from fear. It also means safety and security, which result from a sound relationship with Allah. (Also, the related word amâna refers to a sacred trust that has been given to someone, who then must protect and fulfill that trust, whether it is a promise, safeguarding someone’s property, secret, reputation, and the like.
Safety and Faith: The Meaning of Iman

It is also closly related to Ameen which has the same root A-M-N (Amana) Alif-Meem-Noon in Arabic the Hebrew letters being Alef-Mem-Nun

Ameen (also pronounced Ahmen, Aymen, Amen or Amin) is a word which is used in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam to express agreement with God's truth. It is believed to have originated from an ancient Semitic word consisting of three consonants: A-M-N.
http://islam.about.com/od/prayer/f/E...With-Ameen.htm
I hope you are not trying to deflect, deceive or pull a fast one.

Note my earlier reply to the same point in this post;
http://www.city-data.com/forum/43761630-post76.html
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Old 04-19-2016, 01:50 AM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,044,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
The wandering Arabs technically had low or weak eeman [loose sense] which is obvious and that is why Allah did not refer to that.
The verse 49:14 does not say that they had low or weak eeman but it hadn't even entered their hearts which means no eeman at all.

Quote:
What Allah intended was the wandering do not had strong eeman [strict] or strong belief [strict].
Allah made it clear, and left no doubt as to what He "intended".

Quote:
The pillars of faith [strict] or eeman [strict] do not appear from no where. A Muslim must do [perform] what is necessary to enable the degree of eeman to increase as per 48:4 with Allah facilitating it.
The pillars of faith or eeman is not for performing but are something that regulate a Muslim's actions in complying with 5 pillars of Islam. One set of pillars are "beliefs" and the other set of pillars are "actions". Beliefs regulate the actions rather than are the actions.

Quote:
To perform [do what is necessary] a Muslim must at least read the Quran or learn for an expert of what is required to be done. Then one must cultivate the necessary devotion by various mental processes [not physical like the pillars of Islam].
A Muslim believes something (these are his beliefs as a Mu'min) and then performs certain actions according to his "beliefs". Beliefs regulate the actions but actions are not beliefs nor are beliefs the actions.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,308,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I hope you are not trying to deflect, deceive or pull a fast one.

Note my earlier reply to the same point in this post;
http://www.city-data.com/forum/43761630-post76.html
I am trying to help you understand that Eeman does not have the same definition or meaning as the English word belief. Your argument seems to be based upon the definition of belief not the definition of Eeman.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I am trying to help you understand that Eeman does not have the same definition or meaning as the English word belief. Your argument seems to be based upon the definition of belief not the definition of Eeman.
As I mentioned many times, the core of eeman is the same as the core of "belief" in English or whatever the language.

In the loose [wider] sense both eeman and belief are the same.
However in the strict [narrower] sense then eeman is,

belief [strict] + Islamic pillars of eeman.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
The verse 49:14 does not say that they had low or weak eeman but it hadn't even entered their hearts which means no eeman at all.
You cannot Allah is that stupid linguistically.
In CONTEXT, it is implied the wandering would have weak eeman but they don't have strong eeman based on the pillars of eeman.

Quote:
Allah made it clear, and left no doubt as to what He "intended".
49:14 and 49:17 was not obviously clear. One has to use the context to infer what Allah had intended.

Quote:
The pillars of faith or eeman is not for performing but are something that regulate a Muslim's actions in complying with 5 pillars of Islam. One set of pillars are "beliefs" and the other set of pillars are "actions". Beliefs regulate the actions rather than are the actions.
You got this wrong.
Eeman [strict or loose], or faith [beliefs without proofs nor justifiable reasons] do not appear from no where. To attain a state of strong eeman one has to perform [act] the necessary actions.

Quote:
A Muslim believes something (these are his beliefs as a Mu'min) and then performs certain actions according to his "beliefs". Beliefs regulate the actions but actions are not beliefs nor are beliefs the actions.
Again you denial the existence of strict and loose senses in the Quran.
I have shown from verses in the Quran,
1. there are degrees, grades and ranking of eeman [strict].
2. eeman, faith [belief] can be increased or decrease [48:4]

If a Muslim believe [weak] then s/he is a weak mu'min
To be a strong 'mu'min' one need strong eeman [strict] by doing the necessary pillars of eeman.

You are ignorant of the reality and mental process of believing and the resultant beliefs;
The DNA and environment establish the beliefs of a person, then the beliefs drive actions which also influence beliefs in a spiral movement.
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Old 04-23-2016, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is one write up on What is Eeman.

Linguistic meaning
• Islamic meaning
• What is "speech" and what is "action"?
• Pillars of Eeman
• Difference between Islam & Eeman
• Things that increase Eeman
• Things that decrease Eeman
• References

http://www.askislampedia.com/en/wiki/-/wiki/English_wiki/Concept+of+Belief#1[/url]

Note in particular the increase and decrease in eeman.
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