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Old 04-28-2016, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Islam is Islam. The Qur'an the Qur'an. Eeman is eeman. These are all precise terms. You need to learn about them. You can't learn about them by diluting them with loose terms. Truth is always truth rather than half truth and half lie.
Humans are humans.
All humans has beliefs
Islam is practiced by humans.
Eeman is a specific set of beliefs practiced by humans.
Once we understand humans and human nature there is nothing special about eeman.

You are ignorant of the existent of 'half truth.'
Note:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-truth
Quote:
A half-truth is a deceptive statement that includes some element of truth. The statement might be partly true, the statement may be totally true but only part of the whole truth, or it may use some deceptive element, such as improper punctuation, or double meaning, especially if the intent is to deceive, evade, blame or misrepresent the truth
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Old 04-29-2016, 02:31 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Humans are humans.
All humans has beliefs
Islam is practiced by humans.
Eeman is a specific set of beliefs practiced by humans.
Once we understand humans and human nature there is nothing special about eeman.

You are ignorant of the existent of 'half truth.'
Note:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-truth
Exactly my point!

There is no half truth or loose term in the Qur'an that could be regarded as deception. Every term is precise term, the whole truth and nothing but the precise term. It would be by diluting them, as you do with loose terms and deceptive terms, that you create deception. That's why I have been steadfast from the outset on these precise terms in the Qur'an.
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Old 04-30-2016, 01:33 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Exactly my point!
There is no half truth or loose term in the Qur'an that could be regarded as deception.
You stated earlier there is no such thing as half-truth because you think there is no such thing in general.
I proved to you by showing the above link.
Therefore there are half-truths. QED.

Now you deflecting by saying there is not half truths in the Quran.
This point is debatable.
There are many half-truths in the Quran.
E.g. that the sun set is a true but the sun setting in a pool of water is a lie.
That is a half-truth.

Quote:
Every term is precise term, the whole truth and nothing but the precise term. It would be by diluting them, as you do with loose terms and deceptive terms, that you create deception. That's why I have been steadfast from the outset on these precise terms in the Qur'an.
We have not zoomed into what you mean by 'precise'.
As I had stated, even a small kid can be precise when pointing to his toys, hungry, etc.

But the Quran do use terms in the strict and loose sense.
I have given many examples already.
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Old 05-01-2016, 02:24 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You stated earlier there is no such thing as half-truth because you think there is no such thing in general.
I did not state it like that; you only misunderstood it like that because your thinking and understanding is full of "general" and "loose" terms when you think about discussing Islam and the Qur'an.

Get this "general" and "loose" thoughts out of your mind! Think about the precise terms in the Qur'an and that way you won't make such silly mistakes.

Quote:
Now you deflecting by saying there is not half truths in the Quran.
This point is debatable.
My point was, as you realize now, always about the terms in the Qur'an rather than in "general". In other words, I talk in the Qur'anic terms and you are full of "general" and "loose" terms.

Quote:
There are many half-truths in the Quran.
E.g. that the sun set is a true but the sun setting in a pool of water is a lie.
That is a half-truth.
You are wrong. The sun never sets; it only seems to appear so to the human eye the same way as it appears to set in a pool of water, lake, ocean or even in the west. It is from human view point rather than the Qur'an is telling you a scientific truth. No wonder you can't understand the Qur'an!

Do you even know that the word in the Arabic Qur'an is not "setting" (of the sun) but "maghrib". Literal meaning of "maghrib" is ""west". It is "maghrib" ("west") because the sun sets in that direction rather than it actually falls down in the west.

Quote:
We have not zoomed into what you mean by 'precise'.
As I had stated, even a small kid can be precise when pointing to his toys, hungry, etc.

But the Quran do use terms in the strict and loose sense.
I have given many examples already.
Your "examples" are your ignorance about the Qur'an. When you fail to understand a precise term in the Qur'an you try to break it down into your own loose sense because that's all you can understand; "general" and "loose". You can understand the "general" and "loose" term, "sun sets in the west" but "sun setting in a sea" is not understandable to you. Does the sun set in the west? Using your loose logic, how can the sun set and rise AT THE SAME TIME in and from two different places one in the west and the other in the east?

You will understand the Qur'an better if your aim in reading the Qur'an is not nit-picking!
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Old 05-01-2016, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I did not state it like that; you only misunderstood it like that because your thinking and understanding is full of "general" and "loose" terms when you think about discussing Islam and the Qur'an.
Get this "general" and "loose" thoughts out of your mind! Think about the precise terms in the Qur'an and that way you won't make such silly mistakes.

My point was, as you realize now, always about the terms in the Qur'an rather than in "general". In other words, I talk in the Qur'anic terms and you are full of "general" and "loose" terms.
You want to deny the facts of life and linguistics?
That is no way one can ignore the existence of the usage of a term in the 'strict' and 'loose' sense in life and that include the Quran.
Do you deny the above, i.e. no such thing as strict or loose sense in the linguistics of humanity.

Quote:
You are wrong. The sun never sets; it only seems to appear so to the human eye the same way as it appears to set in a pool of water, lake, ocean or even in the west. It is from human view point rather than the Qur'an is telling you a scientific truth. No wonder you can't understand the Qur'an!

Do you even know that the word in the Arabic Qur'an is not "setting" (of the sun) but "maghrib". Literal meaning of "maghrib" is ""west". It is "maghrib" ("west") because the sun sets in that direction rather than it actually falls down in the west.
There is no absolute truth. Thus there is no absolute truth the Sun ever sets. But we are not dealing with absolute truths in this case but realistic truths.
Realistically and common truth the Sun over the horizon, sea, land, desert, mountains and disappear.
To say the Sun disappear in a specific pool of water in the "maghrib" [West] is 'stupidity.'
It is from human view point rather than the Qur'an is telling you a scientific truth. No wonder you can't understand the Qur'an!
What?? There are a lot of bragging from Muslims, the Quran is very scientific. So you are saying when related to embryo it is scientific but not scientific when related to the setting Sun. What a confusion and mess?


Quote:
Your "examples" are your ignorance about the Qur'an. When you fail to understand a precise term in the Qur'an you try to break it down into your own loose sense because that's all you can understand; "general" and "loose".
You can understand the "general" and "loose" term, "sun sets in the west" but "sun setting in a sea" is not understandable to you. Does the sun set in the west? Using your loose logic, how can the sun set and rise AT THE SAME TIME in and from two different places one in the west and the other in the east?

You will understand the Qur'an better if your aim in reading the Qur'an is not nit-picking!
I know the difference between "precise" and 'strict or loose' term. So far you have not explained what you meant by "precise" from your perspective?

It is generally understood as acceptable without dispute by ALL [at present] that the Sun sets in the West.
If any one state the Sun set over the horizon, sea, mountains, land [broadest sense] then the default direction is the West.
To state the Sun sets in a pool of water is nonsensical, misleading and lead to confusions in the general sense.

Based on common knowledge acceptable to all, the Sun sets in the West.
In a philosophical sense we can argue the Sun never sets and 'West' is a human term for direction. However in the strictest philosophical sense, I can argue the Sun is a human invention and the Sun do not exist-In-Itself. I won't go into this because I know you don't have the competence to even understand [before agreeing or disagreeing with] the issue.
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Old 05-02-2016, 02:22 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,036,278 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You want to deny the facts of life and linguistics?
That is no way one can ignore the existence of the usage of a term in the 'strict' and 'loose' sense in life and that include the Quran.
Do you deny the above, i.e. no such thing as strict or loose sense in the linguistics of humanity.
Your argument here is born in ignorance that the Qur'an is not from God but from human beings. Therefore, I can understand your zeal to link the Qur'anic terms with linguistics of human beings in which all kind of loose terms are quite common.

From my point of view, Allah has chosen the terms precisely. No terms from Allah can be changed into human loose terms.

Quote:
There is no absolute truth. Thus there is no absolute truth the Sun ever sets. But we are not dealing with absolute truths in this case but realistic truths.
Realistic truth is that you see the sun setting. That's what is described in the Qur'an. The guy goes towards the west (where he used to SEE/FIND the sun setting) and SAW/FOUND that it was setting in dark looking expanse of water. The scene is as seen by the guy. That's all to it. If you want to do nit-picking, go ahead for your own satisfaction. My duty here is to try and make you understand something about the Qut'an. If you don't want to understand, it's not a problem to me.

Quote:
Realistically and common truth the Sun over the horizon, sea, land, desert, mountains and disappear.
To say the Sun disappear in a specific pool of water in the "maghrib" [West] is 'stupidity.'
It is stupidity to nit-pick on this one when in the Qur'an it is what the guy SAW/FOUND rather than what actually happened.
It is from human view point rather than the Qur'an is telling you a scientific truth. No wonder you can't understand the Qur'an!
Quote:
What?? There are a lot of bragging from Muslims, the Quran is very scientific. So you are saying when related to embryo it is scientific but not scientific when related to the setting Sun. What a confusion and mess?
Certainly no mess; just your confusion. When related to the setting of sun, it is what the guy could see/find with his eyes at the time but when related to embryo, it was not what one could see with his eyes at the time but the process of development of embryo that was not seen at the time nor known at the time. And you can't tell the difference because you can't understand the Qur'an with closed mind towards the Qur'an.

Quote:
I know the difference between "precise" and 'strict or loose' term. So far you have not explained what you meant by "precise" from your perspective?
Precise means precise and not general, loose or any that can be changed to another term. Allah has chosen terms in the Qur'an precisely and you can't turn them into loose terms even if you try your utmost best.

Quote:
It is generally understood as acceptable without dispute by ALL [at present] that the Sun sets in the West.
If any one state the Sun set over the horizon, sea, mountains, land [broadest sense] then the default direction is the West.
To state the Sun sets in a pool of water is nonsensical, misleading and lead to confusions in the general sense.
No such statement as a matter of fact that the sun sets in a pool of water. The statement is about what the guy saw/found. The guy's view point is described in the verse.

The same is described 4 verses later. This time about rising of the sun over a people without shelter. Go and do some more nit-picking about this verse too that the Qur'an tells us that the sun rises over a people wihout shelter!

Quote:
Based on common knowledge acceptable to all, the Sun sets in the West.
That is not knowledge about the sun but knowledge about what all see.

Quote:
In a philosophical sense we can argue the Sun never sets and 'West' is a human term for direction. However in the strictest philosophical sense, I can argue the Sun is a human invention and the Sun do not exist-In-Itself. I won't go into this because I know you don't have the competence to even understand [before agreeing or disagreeing with] the issue.
We are discussing the Qur'an here, and not your philosophical sense. It is obvious to me that you do not have competence to understand the Qur'an.
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Old 05-02-2016, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,581,295 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Your argument here is born in ignorance that the Qur'an is not from God but from human beings. Therefore, I can understand your zeal to link the Qur'anic terms with linguistics of human beings in which all kind of loose terms are quite common.


Realistic truth is that you see the sun setting. That's what is described in the Qur'an. The guy goes towards the west (where he used to SEE/FIND the sun setting) and SAW/FOUND that it was setting in dark looking expanse of water. The scene is as seen by the guy. That's all to it. If you want to do nit-picking, go ahead for your own satisfaction. My duty here is to try and make you understand something about the Qut'an. If you don't want to understand, it's not a problem to me.

It is stupidity to nit-pick on this one when in the Qur'an it is what the guy SAW/FOUND rather than what actually happened.
It is from human view point rather than the Qur'an is telling you a scientific truth. No wonder you can't understand the Qur'an!
No such statement as a matter of fact that the sun sets in a pool of water. The statement is about what the guy saw/found. The guy's view point is described in the verse.

The same is described 4 verses later. This time about rising of the sun over a people without shelter. Go and do some more nit-picking about this verse too that the Qur'an tells us that the sun rises over a people wihout shelter!
There is no issue where the Sun rise over people without shelter or over anything else. It did not state the Sun rise from something but over something.
There is a difference when it is stated and accepted by Allah that the Sun set into a pool of water.

Quote:
That is not knowledge about the sun but knowledge about what all see.
Knowledge is obtained from what is seen, other senses and confirmed by the mind [intellect, reason, etc.]

Quote:
Certainly no mess; just your confusion. When related to the setting of sun, it is what the guy could see/find with his eyes at the time but when related to embryo, it was not what one could see with his eyes at the time but the process of development of embryo that was not seen at the time nor known at the time. And you can't tell the difference because you can't understand the Qur'an with closed mind towards the Qur'an.
Even though the embryo cannot be seen, humans can infer it from the sight of pregnant women. As for sperm surely men with experience could feel where it is coming from. In addition, there was already knowledge of embryo long before the Quran came about.
If it possible some curious people of intellect [greeks, etc.] could have done human dissection from autopsies somewhere.

Quote:
From my point of view, Allah has chosen the terms precisely. No terms from Allah can be changed into human loose terms.

Precise means precise and not general, loose or any that can be changed to another term. Allah has chosen terms in the Qur'an precisely and you can't turn them into loose terms even if you try your utmost best.
You stated above 'precise' means not general nor loose.
That meant your precise is equivalent to 'strict' 'specific' and the likes.

You mentioned 32:29

32:29. [Asad] Say: “On the Day of the Final Decision, their [newly-found] faith will be of no use to those who [in their lifetime] were bent on denying the truth, nor will they be granted respite!” –
In this case Allah is using 'eeman' in the general and loose term.
In this case, eeman is general and thus can be referred to the eeman of disbelievers.
In general [loose] sense, the eeman [faith] of Muslims is the same as eeman [faith] of disbelievers.
So in this case Allah is not using eeman in the precise, specific, strict sense but in the general or loose sense.

However in other cases, Allah is using eeman in the strict sense when such specific eeman is related to the 6 pillars of eeman.
Eeman in relation to the 6 pillars of eeman i.e. in the strict sense cannot be the same as the eeman [strict] of disbelievers.

Therefore your claim that Allah only use terms in the precise sense is WRONG!! as proven above.


Quote:
We are discussing the Qur'an here, and not your philosophical sense. It is obvious to me that you do not have competence to understand the Qur'an.
The philosophical sense enable the highest sense of reality and truth.
If any one want to get to the truth and nothing but the truth, they have to rely on the philosophical sense in understanding anything, including the Quran and Muslims.

I merely raised the existent of such a philosophical approach but I am not going into it because I know you are not capable of handing real truths. The average theistic believers will go psycho if they face the real truths.
Nevertheless there are many scholarly Muslims who attempt to understand Islam from the philosophical approach, note
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...m_philosophers
notably, Avicenna, Al Ghazali, Averroes and others.
These Muslims philosopher did get nearer to the truths than the average Muslims but not near enough as the non-theistic philosophers.

Last edited by Continuum; 05-02-2016 at 11:04 PM..
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Old 08-08-2016, 04:54 AM
 
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Eeman is to believe in Allah, His Angels,His Books, His Messengers, the Last Day and tobelieve in the Predestination; the good and the bad.
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