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Old 03-29-2016, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here are some of the articles I read re distinction between 'Muslim' and "Mu'min' in the specific sense.

Quote:
Muslim and Mu'min
'Muslim' is a term for anyone who submits or surrenders their will to the One true God of the Universe with obedience.
This is irrespective of whether or not they have belief in the veracity of the Quran or its messenger.
In the context of the Quran and the Prophetic ministry, a 'Mu'min' was one that 'believed' in the veracity of the Quran and the messenger (i.e. Prophet Muhammad) (pbuh) that God appointed to deliver the final scripture to mankind. Therefore, a Mu'min believed in God, all His scriptures and His messengers.

Suggest you read the above article with references to the Quran.

Quote:
Every Mumin is a Muslim but every Muslim is not necessarily a Mumin.
By the term Mumin a person who has firm inner belief is meant and by the term Muslim we mean a submitter, i.e. someone who resigns His will to Allah, who agrees that there is Allah and He has given guidance to mankind.
However he may not be practising those rules in his life, e.g. he is drinking alcohol, dating, earning by illegitimate means etc, but verbally says and knows all this is wrong. He merely surrenders. This is the first stage.

But when a person becomes a Mumin or a convinced believer, then this is the stage where he moves from initial submission.
He also starts acting on the rules and practices the laws of Allah in his life. He is a Muslim i.e. a submitter as well as a Mumin i.e. convinced believer and an actor. A Muslim who does not act on the rules is however on the first stage, and Imaan has not entered his heart. This will happen when he starts practising the rules.

Islam (Submission) and Iman (inner belief) are two different things. The fact that people have submitted to the commands of Allah does not mean they have belief in Allah in their hearts. Their submission can be for a variety of reasons, could be out of fear, to make friends or allies, to be acceptable in society or to marry a girl. All this is outwardly. Imaan – however is entirely different and is concerned with the qalb (heart) of a person and is between man and God.
Mu’min and Muslim – KASHIF SHAHZADA
Quote:
The two terms [Muslim & Mu'min], sometimes used interchangeably as synonymous [where no distinction is implied] are also used in separate connotations specific to each.

The word "Muslim", the noun for the active agent (subject) of the Arabic verb "Aslama", literally means "one who accepts/submits". While the word "Mo'min" the noun for the active agent (subject) of the Arabic verb "Aamana" means "one who believes".

When the two words are used in comparison, as is the case, for instance, in Surah Al-Hujraat 49: 14, the former is used to imply the apparent submission or acceptance of Islam of a person, while the latter is used for his real [internal] faith.
The Difference between Mu'min & Muslim [5056] -Miscellaneous Issues - Understanding Islam
arabic - What is a "Muslim" (surrendered) and what is a "Mumin" (believer/safe)? - Islam Stack Exchange
This link contain 6 answers to the difference between 'Muslim' and 'Mu'min'

Who is a Mu’min?

Difference between Muslim and Mumin - Islam web - English
The six pillars of Iman are: believing in Allah, believing in His Angels, His Books, His Prophets and believing in The Last Day and in Destiny be it good or bad.

Difference between Muslim and Mumin - Islam web - English
1) If you recognize the difference between al-Iman and al-Islam, then the difference between the Muslim and Mumin (believer) becomes clear.
2) al-Iman increases with good deeds and decreases with evil deeds.

Other than the above I have read many other articles on the distinction between 'Muslim' and 'Mu'min.'
They all share the same core views which I find you are the only exception from these views I have read.
The point is your view is not sound and do not make sense in the context of the whole Quran.
Besides your view also do not jive with reality in terms of personal spiritual development of an individual.

Many of the articles mentioned 49:14 re wandering Arabs as the verse that is central in establishing this distinction between 'Muslim' and 'Mu'min' in the specific sense.
Many also refer to the Ahadith [Jibreel, etc.]. I understand you do accept the Ahadith but while I do not agree the Ahadith has any divine authority, there is no reason why we should reject/ignore them. The Ahadith can be used as a reference and whatever is relied upon must conform to the Quran.
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Old 03-30-2016, 04:40 PM
 
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I have no doubt that these so called scholars are wrong. Ask them two quetions:

1. In the illustration, there is no mention of idolaters becoming Muslims. It does show Christians and Jews becoming Muslims but how did the idolaters become Muslims after Believing?

2. Did none of the Jews and Christians ever Believe before becoming Muslims? If they did, were they not Mu'mineen (Believers) then before the revelation of the Qur'an?

The answer to the first question will reveal how shortsighted was that scholar who tried to illustrate his view and made a mess of it.
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Old 03-30-2016, 04:55 PM
 
3,167 posts, read 1,042,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A Muslim who has attained 'Mumin' status conform with its specific qualities;
1. Has strong eeman
2. Qualities as in Chapter 23:1-11
3.
4.
5.
6.
Can anyone become a Muslim without having any eeman?

Is there no Muslim strong in eeman?

Which of the qualities in 23:1-11 are not in a Muslim?
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Old 03-30-2016, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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Possibly non_muslim do not understand our opinions and views of scholars.

All any scholar can do is express his.her personal opinion. Which has no more importance than the opinion of any other Muslim.

What does serve as something to take notice of is when a majority of scholars are arriving at the same conclusions.

I can not understand how any reasonably intelligent can have a concept of a Muslim that is not Mumin. The seperation in the illustration is not mang sense. It is like saying you can have a "Good Person" who is not Good.

While it might be possible to have a Mumin who is not Muslim, One can not be Muslim without being Mumin.
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Old 03-31-2016, 12:28 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I have no doubt that these so called scholars are wrong. Ask them two quetions:

1. In the illustration, there is no mention of idolaters becoming Muslims. It does show Christians and Jews becoming Muslims but how did the idolaters become Muslims after Believing?
That is just an omission of one process [box] .i.e. submission.
The idolaters are Muslims [specific] when they submit and enter into a covenant with Allah.
Then they BELIEVE proper to develop strong Eeman [6? pillars of Eeman] to become Mu'min.

Quote:
2. Did none of the Jews and Christians ever Believe before becoming Muslims? If they did, were they not Mu'mineen (Believers) then before the revelation of the Qur'an?
The Jews and Christians are believers of Judaism and Christianity based on their Torah and Gospel respectively.
The current Jews and Christians are not Muslims [loose term] because their Torah and Gospels are the corrupted versions.

Those, e.g. who follow Abraham were Muslims [of old] when they submitted to Allah in accordance to the original uncorrupted Quran.
These Muslims of old would have progressed to be Mu'min after they have developed strong Eeman.

Quote:
The answer to the first question will reveal how shortsighted was that scholar who tried to illustrate his view and made a mess of it.
The first question merely involved an omission re the process of being Muslim [specific] after submission [Aslama].

I suggest you read the articles I linked if for you to seriously argued the point.
There are variations in their views but the core point remain the same, i.e.

Muslim [specific] precede 'Mu'min [specific]
1. A Muslim [specific] perform the 5 pillars of Islam.
2. A Mu'min [specific] perform the 6? pillars of Eeman [complete not partly].
3. A Mushin [specific] perform the X? pillars of Inhsaan.

All 3 above are Muslims [loose sense].
It is not logical for a Mu'min [specific] to precede a Muslim [specific].
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Old 03-31-2016, 12:37 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
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Here is another article re OP.
Quote:
Conclusion:

The followers of the Book revealed through the messengers are no longer ‘Submitter/Muslimeen’, but they have advanced to become ‘Faithful/Mumineen’.

What has gone wrong in our society today is that people are all promoting the actions prescribed for ‘Faithful’ as if they should be done by ‘Submitters’!. That is like giving an F-15 to a novice who is in need of a Cessna!.

A person cannot appreciate or understand the values of Salat & Zakat if they have not taken the path of a) One GOD, and b) doing good works.

Only when such people attain ‘certainty’ can they move-on to the advanced level of having faith in the Messenger and then establishing the rules of ‘Righteousness/Taqwaa’ in their lives.

Articles | www.free-minds.org
I believe the free-mind.org is managed by Quran-Only Muslims [loose term].

In the above it is concluded 'Submitters [Muslims] precede Mu'min.'
Read the whole article [quite long] but informative.
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Old 03-31-2016, 12:46 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Can anyone become a Muslim without having any eeman?

Is there no Muslim strong in eeman?

Which of the qualities in 23:1-11 are not in a Muslim?
Generally the argument is one is a Muslim if they perform the 5 pillars of Islam and no need for the 6?* pillars of Eeman [strong].

However I can agree that could be some very negligible degree of eeman but not strong Eeman as provided by the 6? pillars of Eeman.
For example, surely a mathematic student [in grade school] would know some degree mathematics [at least 1+1=2], but that is not enough to qualify him to be called a qualified Mathematician who must have at least a Master or PhD.
Similarly a Muslim [specific] could have some negligible degree of eeman but that is not strong enough to qualify him/her to be called a Mu'min.

*6? = there could be more elements to Eeman than the mentioned 6.
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Old 03-31-2016, 12:51 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Possibly non_muslim do not understand our opinions and views of scholars.

All any scholar can do is express his.her personal opinion. Which has no more importance than the opinion of any other Muslim.

What does serve as something to take notice of is when a majority of scholars are arriving at the same conclusions.

I can not understand how any reasonably intelligent can have a concept of a Muslim that is not Mumin. The seperation in the illustration is not mang sense. It is like saying you can have a "Good Person" who is not Good.

While it might be possible to have a Mumin who is not Muslim, One can not be Muslim without being Mumin.
Whether one is a non-Muslim or Muslim the test of Islamic knowledge is what is in accordance with the words of God in the Quran.

Note my explanation and example above on why a Mu'min is a special class of Muslim [loose] who need to have performed the 6? pillars of Eeman to qualify to be called a Mu'min.

In the Quran, Allah has stated many times Muslims [loose] are ranked in various grades and status on Judgment Day.
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Old 03-31-2016, 02:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I believe the free-mind.org is managed by Quran-Only Muslims [loose term].
I think if you try to understand what is being said by the free-mind.org, you will find that they back their conclusions with verses of the Qur'an, and do not rely on scholars.

Quote:
In the above it is concluded 'Submitters [Muslims] precede Mu'min.'
Read the whole article [quite long] but informative.
That's what you understand. You will find that they have never claimed that one can be Muslim without being Believer (Mu'min) first.

Just like you, I have read many articles that regard a Mu'min is better than a Muslim. They come to this conclusion simply because "Mu'min" sounds a better attribute than "Muslim". They think that a Mu'min is a better Muslim than an ordinary Muslim when reality is that a Mu'min is a Believer but when he also submits he becomes a Muslim. In other words, a Muslim is also a Mu'min (Believer). 4:125 implies that nobody has better religion than a Submitter who does good (is mu'hsin). That means, it is not a Mu'min who has better religion than a Muslim because Mu'min has moved on to become a Muslim doing good to other people from just believing.

Of course believing is commendable but it has to be reflected in one's actions. Therefore, it is submitting after believing that takes one to a higher level and helps the believer to become Muslim and a better person (mu'hsin).
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Old 03-31-2016, 02:52 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,588,113 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
I think if you try to understand what is being said by the free-mind.org, you will find that they back their conclusions with verses of the Qur'an, and do not rely on scholars.

That's what you understand. You will find that they have never claimed that one can be Muslim without being Believer (Mu'min) first.
What??
Did you read their conclusion I posted.
The followers of the Book revealed through the messengers are no longer ‘Submitter/Muslimeen’, but they have advanced to become ‘Faithful/Mumineen’.
The above is obvious and imply Muslimeen precede Mumineem.


Quote:
Just like you, I have read many articles that regard a Mu'min is better than a Muslim. They come to this conclusion simply because "Mu'min" sounds a better attribute than "Muslim". They think that a Mu'min is a better Muslim than an ordinary Muslim when reality is that a Mu'min is a Believer but when he also submits he becomes a Muslim. In other words, a Muslim is also a Mu'min (Believer). 4:125 implies that nobody has better religion than a Submitter who does good (is mu'hsin). That means, it is not a Mu'min who has better religion than a Muslim because Mu'min has moved on to become a Muslim doing good to other people from just believing.
"simply because "Mu'min" sounds a better attribute than "Muslim"."
What kind of statement is that??

All the Islamic scholars who agree 'Mu'min' is a higher stage than 'Muslim' [specific sense] I have read provide reasonable justifications from the Quran. Some from the Ahadith [not for you].

Quote:
Of course believing is commendable but it has to be reflected in one's actions. Therefore, it is submitting after believing that takes one to a higher level and helps the believer to become Muslim and a better person (mu'hsin).
You are still twisting the words.
Submitting [specific] sense must precede 'Muslim' [specific].
A Muslim [specific] must perform the 5 pillars of Islam [pilgrimage not obligatory].
Then a Muslim [specific] progress to be a Mu'min by developing strong Eeman [6 Pillar of eeman]
Then a Mu'min [specific] progress to be a Mushin via the pillars of Inhsaan.

The above step are very logical, orderly and practical.

The Quran do mention 'full surrender' in a few verses but in context "full-surrender" always precede "full-BELIEVE."
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