U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-31-2016, 03:28 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
Whether one is a non-Muslim or Muslim the test of Islamic knowledge is what is in accordance with the words of God in the Quran.

Note my explanation and example above on why a Mu'min is a special class of Muslim [loose] who need to have performed the 6? pillars of Eeman to qualify to be called a Mu'min.

In the Quran, Allah has stated many times Muslims [loose] are ranked in various grades and status on Judgment Day.
If you read the Quran 33:35, you will find that the only people with all the attributes stated in the verse are of Muslims (men and women). Attribute of everyone stated in the verse is requirement to be Muslim.

Read 2:2-5 and you will find that a Muslim is required to do all that..

In the Qur'an every believer (Mu'min) is required to submit, comply with Allah's commands regarding 5 pillers (including prayers, charity, fasting etc.) Why if they are already better than Muslims (Submitters)?

3:102 O you who believe! Be consious of God with all the consiousness that is due to Him, and die not unless you are Muslims.

This verse means, the Mu'mineen are required to be Muslims by the time death takes them away. The verse does not say that they should stay only as believers (mu'mineen) until they die and not go backwards and be Muslims. The verses says to Mu'mineen, be Muslims. Being a Muslim is requirement for them because being a Muslim is higher level than being Mu'min.

How do these self-proclaimed scholars do not understand these verses of the Qur'an? I can fill page after page here by quoting the verses of the Qur'an which will show that one begins with believing Allah (as Mu'min) then progresses to submitting to Allah (as Muslim).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-31-2016, 03:38 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
What??
Did you read their conclusion I posted.
The followers of the Book revealed through the messengers are no longer ‘Submitter/Muslimeen’, but they have advanced to become ‘Faithful/Mumineen’.
The above is obvious and imply Muslimeen precede Mumineem.
You misunderstand their conclusion. They are no longer submitters/muslimeen because they hve not submitted to the commands in their scriptures. Now if the believe in the revelation of the Qur'an they will become faithful/mumineen. And what happens after they have believed the Qur'an? When are they going to become Muslims again?

Think, think, and think again!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-31-2016, 03:43 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
If you read the Quran 33:35, you will find that the only people with all the attributes stated in the verse are of Muslims (men and women). Attribute of everyone stated in the verse is requirement to be Muslim.

Read 2:2-5 and you will find that a Muslim is required to do all that..

In the Qur'an every believer (Mu'min) is required to submit, comply with Allah's commands regarding 5 pillers (including prayers, charity, fasting etc.) Why if they are already better than Muslims (Submitters)?

3:102 O you who believe! Be consious of God with all the consiousness that is due to Him, and die not unless you are Muslims.

This verse means, the Mu'mineen are required to be Muslims by the time death takes them away. The verse does not say that they should stay only as believers (mu'mineen) until they die and not go backwards and be Muslims. The verses says to Mu'mineen, be Muslims. Being a Muslim is requirement for them because being a Muslim is higher level than being Mu'min.

How do these self-proclaimed scholars do not understand these verses of the Qur'an? I can fill page after page here by quoting the verses of the Qur'an which will show that one begins with believing Allah (as Mu'min) then progresses to submitting to Allah (as Muslim).
You are conflating the terms here, i.e.

1. Muslim [specific], with
2. Muslims [loose

As I has stated,
ALL Muslim [specific], Mu'min and Mushin are Muslims [loose sense].

A mumin who has to submit does not mean he has to resubmit.
A mu'min has already submitted a Muslim [specific], therefore any reference to a mu'min submitting is merely reinforcement of what was originally done.

3:102 refer to Muslims [loose term] not Muslim [specific].
'O you who believe!' refer to a Mu'min or potential Mu'min.
A Muslim [specific] only need to perform the 5 pillars of Islam and NOT the full range of Tagwa.

A Mu'min is obliged to strive with Tagwa to become a Muttagin or Mushin but don't die a Muslim [loose term] by becoming apostate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-31-2016, 04:18 AM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
You are conflating the terms here, i.e.

1. Muslim [specific], with
2. Muslims [loose

As I has stated,
ALL Muslim [specific], Mu'min and Mushin are Muslims [loose sense].

A mumin who has to submit does not mean he has to resubmit.
A mu'min has already submitted a Muslim [specific], therefore any reference to a mu'min submitting is merely reinforcement of what was originally done.

3:102 refer to Muslims [loose term] not Muslim [specific].
'O you who believe!' refer to a Mu'min or potential Mu'min.
A Muslim [specific] only need to perform the 5 pillars of Islam and NOT the full range of Tagwa.

A Mu'min is obliged to strive with Tagwa to become a Muttagin or Mushin but don't die a Muslim [loose term] by becoming apostate.
LOL!
I am amazed at your understanding of the verse 3:102. The verse says, DO NOT DIE UNLESS YOU ARE MUSLIM. A believer (Mu'min) must die only as a Muslim.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-01-2016, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
LOL!
I am amazed at your understanding of the verse 3:102. The verse says, DO NOT DIE UNLESS YOU ARE MUSLIM. A believer (Mu'min) must die only as a Muslim.
It is my error. Note my point;

A Mu'min is obliged to strive with Tagwa to become a Muttagin or Mushin but don't die a Muslim [loose term] by becoming apostate.

In the above Muslim and apostate are contradictory.

My intention was this;
A Mu'min is obliged to strive with Tagwa to become a Muttagin or Mushin but don't die as an apostate.

What I intended to say was the Mu'min must not die as an apostate, i.e.
a mu'min must die as a Muslim [minimal -loose] to enable him/her to go to Paradise and not to hell.
If he die a Muslim [loose] but have achieve mu'min status, then he/she will be accorded greater rewards.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-01-2016, 02:57 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
It is my error. Note my point;

A Mu'min is obliged to strive with Tagwa to become a Muttagin or Mushin but don't die a Muslim [loose term] by becoming apostate.

In the above Muslim and apostate are contradictory.
Continuum,

I am not sure whether you are unable to understand the difference between a Mu'min and a Muslim or you have got yourself in a hole from which you can't get out but are pretending not be in a hole.

The verse is clear, it is addressed to the believers. Allah does not want believers (mu'mineen) to die unless they are Muslims.

The same advice was given by Abraham and Jacob to their sons (who were believers) in 2:132; "do not die unless Muslims".

One has to be believer (mu'min) first before becoming a Muslim. A Muslim is also a believer (mu'min).

You have been believing the poor scholars who had no idea hether they were Muslims, Mu'mins or Martians.

Quote:
My intention was this;
A Mu'min is obliged to strive with Tagwa to become a Muttagin or Mushin but don't die as an apostate.
Wy would your great Mu'min with strong Eeman (pased all 6 exams) die as an apostate?
You have been telling me for many days that a Mu'min has strong Eeman after getting through all the 6 pillers of Eeman. Now you have no confidence in such a Mu'min and fear him becoming apostate. LOL!
Why don't you realize that a Mu'min only is a believer at the initial stage and then he progresses through practice and obedience to Muslim level. A Muslim who is strong in eeman, has taqwa, is muttaqi, pious, and mu'hsin. One should not die unless a Muslim.

15:2 Often will those who disbelieve (now) wish they had been Muslims (in their lifetime).

Quote:
What I intended to say was the Mu'min must not die as an apostate, i.e.
a mu'min must die as a Muslim [minimal -loose] to enable him/her to go to Paradise and not to hell.
If he die a Muslim [loose] but have achieve mu'min status, then he/she will be accorded greater rewards.
It would be much easier for you to read what Allah is saying than keep following your own intention. No point in waffling about something you do not understand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2016, 03:07 AM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Continuum,

I am not sure whether you are unable to understand the difference between a Mu'min and a Muslim or you have got yourself in a hole from which you can't get out but are pretending not be in a hole.

The verse is clear, it is addressed to the believers. Allah does not want believers (mu'mineen) to die unless they are Muslims.

The same advice was given by Abraham and Jacob to their sons (who were believers) in 2:132; "do not die unless Muslims".

One has to be believer (mu'min) first before becoming a Muslim. A Muslim is also a believer (mu'min).

You have been believing the poor scholars who had no idea hether they were Muslims, Mu'mins or Martians.
I don't based my view by believing the various scholars I read.
I arrived at my own conclusions after reading the Quran more than 50 times and my conclusion happened to agree with all the scholars who deal with this subject re Muslim versus Mumin.

Quote:
Why would your great Mu'min with strong Eeman (pased all 6 exams) die as an apostate?
You have been telling me for many days that a Mu'min has strong Eeman after getting through all the 6 pillers of Eeman. Now you have no confidence in such a Mu'min and fear him becoming apostate. LOL!
Why don't you realize that a Mu'min only is a believer at the initial stage and then he progresses through practice and obedience to Muslim level. A Muslim who is strong in eeman, has taqwa, is muttaqi, pious, and mu'hsin. One should not die unless a Muslim.
With humans there is no certainty. Anything can happen to change their mind. This has happened in reality when many people change their mind and convert to another religion for various reasons

Btw, a mumin do not imply his/her's is 100% Mumin. Generally to pass any grade the general standard pass rate is 50%. Thus a mumin who is 51% is more likely to change his mind than one who is 99%.

15:2 Often will those who disbelieve (now) wish they had been Muslims (in their lifetime).
In the above "Muslims" refer to 'Muslim' [loose] i.e. Muslims in general.


39:12 And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).

It is obvious Muhammad was the first Muslim [loose] in general and you will note Allah did not use the term 'Mu'min' in this case.

Quote:
It would be much easier for you to read what Allah is saying than keep following your own intention. No point in waffling about something you do not understand.
Majority do not necessary represent the truths all the time but here are the odds that are stacked against your conclusion;

1. You have only read the Quran 6-7 times.
2. You relied on Assad who is the only English translator amongst the 46 I know who has this false view which is blasphemous in implying the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad re 49:14.
3. You are the only one who has such a different view re Muslim versus Mumin from all the scholars searched in the internet.
4. You are not an Islamic scholar.

It is most likely you are more wrong than right.

The other point is;
Re 49:14 the context said so, the wandering Arab submitted to Allah.
Even if this is wrong, there is no big issue.

BUT if you insist the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad and if you are WRONG, then you have committed a blasphemous sin. Muhammad was merely a warner and the most is the wandering Arabs give allegiance to Muhammad not submit [in the Quran context] to Muhammad.

Therefore it is most viable to infer the truth, the wandering Arabs submitted to Allah in 49:14.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2016, 02:07 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
I don't based my view by believing the various scholars I read.
I arrived at my own conclusions after reading the Quran more than 50 times and my conclusion happened to agree with all the scholars who deal with this subject re Muslim versus Mumin.
Then you are just as wrong as they are.
Welcome to the club!

Quote:
With humans there is no certainty. Anything can happen to change their mind. This has happened in reality when many people change their mind and convert to another religion for various reasons

Btw, a mumin do not imply his/her's is 100% Mumin. Generally to pass any grade the general standard pass rate is 50%. Thus a mumin who is 51% is more likely to change his mind than one who is 99%.
That is really stupid thinking in view of your insistence that it is a Muslim who progresses to become Mu'min. If a Mu'min with 51% is most likely to change his mind and become apostate then 1.6 billion Muslims, who are not even at Mu'min status in your argument, should have all become apostates by now. Can you see a BIG hole in your thinking?

Quote:
15:2 Often will those who disbelieve (now) wish they had been Muslims (in their lifetime).
In the above "Muslims" refer to 'Muslim' [loose] i.e. Muslims in general.


39:12 And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).

It is obvious Muhammad was the first Muslim [loose] in general and you will note Allah did not use the term 'Mu'min' in this case.
Do you even realize how dumb you are showing yourself to be in asking this question?

Read only two verses before 39:12, and you will find that these verses are addressed to the believers (mu'mineen), of which Muhammad was one. They are now being commanded to submit as Muslims, and Muhammad was the first one of them mu'mineen to be Muslim. Therefore, this is another proof from the Qur'an that a mu'min (believer) progresses to be a Muslim rather than a Muslim goes backward to become only a believer after stopping his submission to Allah.

Keep in mind that one must believe first (be a mu'min) before becoming Muslim. There are no Muslims who do not believe. There are several verses in the Qur'an that prove my point. I have done my homework; you haven't.

Quote:
Majority do not necessary represent the truths all the time but here are the odds that are stacked against your conclusion;

1. You have only read the Quran 6-7 times.
2. You relied on Assad who is the only English translator amongst the 46 I know who has this false view which is blasphemous in implying the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad re 49:14.
3. You are the only one who has such a different view re Muslim versus Mumin from all the scholars searched in the internet.
4. You are not an Islamic scholar.

It is most likely you are more wrong than right.
You will find, as we go on in this discussion, that I am not likely to be right; I am right. Having studied the Qur'an, reflected, pondered over its verses, taking various contexts into account, I am absolutely certain that a Mu'min is someone who believes and a Muslim is someone who is not only a Mu'min but a submitter to only Allah as well. There isn't even one Muslim in the world who is not a Mu'min (Believer).

Let me give you some information as to who is a Mu'min and when he becomes a Mu'min:

Read 26:51 and see how the magicians became first of the Mu'mineen (believers) in an instance when they believed in the message Moses had delivered to the Pheroah.
The same way, one becomes a Mu'min (Believer) the first time one believes a message from Allah. That is how Moses had become first of the Mu'mineen (Believers) when he had believed message of Allah to him on the mountain (7:143).

Quote:
The other point is;
Re 49:14 the context said so, the wandering Arab submitted to Allah.
Even if this is wrong, there is no big issue.
The point to note is that Allah did not say that the wandering Arabs submitted to Allah.

Quote:
BUT if you insist the wandering Arabs submitted to Muhammad and if you are WRONG, then you have committed a blasphemous sin. Muhammad was merely a warner and the most is the wandering Arabs give allegiance to Muhammad not submit [in the Quran context] to Muhammad.
Not at all! I know exactly what I am saying. I had said "Muhammad" and not "Messenger". When a Christian wife submits to her Christian husband, it does not mean she is now a Muslim or her husband is God.

To be a Muslim one has to submit only to Allah (after believing of course).

Quote:
Therefore it is most viable to infer the truth, the wandering Arabs submitted to Allah in 49:14.
The truth is that they did not even believe. How could they have progressed to submitting to Allah?
The verse goes on to show you that they had to believe the message of the Qur'an from Allah that was delivered by the messenger before their deeds could be worthwhile.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-02-2016, 11:33 PM
 
Location: Not-a-Theist
3,440 posts, read 1,582,753 times
Reputation: 461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalif View Post
Then you are just as wrong as they are.
Welcome to the club!
As usual you are throwing opinions.
Note the odds stack against your views.
I suggest you read the Quran at least 50 times and reflect on Allah real message.

Quote:
That is really stupid thinking in view of your insistence that it is a Muslim who progresses to become Mu'min. If a Mu'min with 51% is most likely to change his mind and become apostate then 1.6 billion Muslims, who are not even at Mu'min status in your argument, should have all become apostates by now. Can you see a BIG hole in your thinking?
Frankly your is stupid thinking in saying others are stupid thinking.

If some Mu'min [51%, degree] can change their mind, it does not follow 1.6 billion Muslims [general] will ALL change their mind. This is clearly bad logic and stupid thinking.

Quote:
Do you even realize how dumb you are showing yourself to be in asking this question?

Read only two verses before 39:12, and you will find that these verses are addressed to the believers (mu'mineen), of which Muhammad was one. They are now being commanded to submit as Muslims, and Muhammad was the first one of them mu'mineen to be Muslim. Therefore, this is another proof from the Qur'an that a mu'min (believer) progresses to be a Muslim rather than a Muslim goes backward to become only a believer after stopping his submission to Allah.

Keep in mind that one must believe first (be a mu'min) before becoming Muslim. There are no Muslims who do not believe. There are several verses in the Qur'an that prove my point. I have done my homework; you haven't.
As usual when you claim some one is dumb, it is because you are dumb in the first place. Pot calling the kettle black.

Re 39:10-12 there is no mentioned of Mu'min. You are twisting and lying with your interpretation.
39:10 was addressed to Muslims [general] as slaves of Allah and not specifically as mu'min.

Your misunderstanding is because you have read the Quran only 6-7 times and this have no access and understand the nuances of the Quran.

Quote:
You will find, as we go on in this discussion, that I am not likely to be right; I am right. Having studied the Qur'an, reflected, pondered over its verses, taking various contexts into account, I am absolutely certain that a Mu'min is someone who believes and a Muslim is someone who is not only a Mu'min but a submitter to only Allah as well. There isn't even one Muslim in the world who is not a Mu'min (Believer).
Reading the Quran 6-7 times is not sufficient. You need to read it at least 50 times and within the right context of the Quran and not based on your personal biasness.

Quote:
Let me give you some information as to who is a Mu'min and when he becomes a Mu'min:

Read 26:51 and see how the magicians became first of the Mu'mineen (believers) in an instance when they believed in the message Moses had delivered to the Pheroah.
The same way, one becomes a Mu'min (Believer) the first time one believes a message from Allah. That is how Moses had become first of the Mu'mineen (Believers) when he had believed message of Allah to him on the mountain (7:143).

The point to note is that Allah did not say that the wandering Arabs submitted to Allah.
26:51 imply the magicians were believers in the loose/wide sense. There is no way they are Mu'min proper immediately not until they have performed the pillar of Islam and pillars of eeman diligently and consistently.

By inference, 49:17 confirmed the wandering Arabs were Muslims, therefore they MUST have submitted to Allah.

Quote:
Not at all! I know exactly what I am saying. I had said "Muhammad" and not "Messenger". When a Christian wife submits to her Christian husband, it does not mean she is now a Muslim or her husband is God.
To be a Muslim one has to submit only to Allah (after believing of course).
In the context of 49:14 'submission' is reference to Allah, but you insist otherwise that it is submission to Muhammad, the person, the slave of Allah. This is blasphemous.
If in the context of Muhammad, the correct context is giving allegiance to Muhammad. It is out of context for the wandering Arabs who are independent to be 'submitting' to Muhammad.

Quote:
The truth is that they did not even believe. How could they have progressed to submitting to Allah?
The verse goes on to show you that they had to believe the message of the Qur'an from Allah that was delivered by the messenger before their deeds could be worthwhile.
Note 49:17 confirmed the wandering Arabs were already [they embraced and accepted] Muslims.
If they are Muslims, then they MUST have submitted to Allah.

Note the odds are stack against you with your one and only personal view with some indirect support from Asad.
Are you insisting you are the only one who is right and the other 1.6+ billion Muslims are wrong?
You need to doubly confirm your view by reading the Quran at least 50 times to get the overall context.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-03-2016, 03:07 PM
 
3,166 posts, read 1,037,403 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Continuum View Post
A mumin who has to submit does not mean he has to resubmit.
A mu'min has already submitted a Muslim [specific], therefore any reference to a mu'min submitting is merely reinforcement of what was originally done.
Then why aren't the Mu'mineen being commanded not to die unless Mu'mineen, if being Mu'minern is better than being Muslims?

Why the command not to die specifically as Muslims?

Quote:
3:102 refer to Muslims [loose term] not Muslim [specific].
It commands not to die unless Muslims (it does not say black, white, brown, tall, short, Western, Eastern, loose or tight Muslims but just "Muslims").

Quote:
'O you who believe!' refer to a Mu'min or potential Mu'min.
It refers to Mu'mineen, the potential Muslims.

Quote:
A Muslim [specific] only need to perform the 5 pillars of Islam and NOT the full range of Tagwa.
Nonsense! One can't be a Muslim without having taqwa.

A Muslim need to do everything that a mu'min, mu'hsin and muttaqi does along with obeying all the commands. This includes having eeman, patience, truthfulness, piety, righteousness and, of course, taqwa.

Quote:
A Mu'min is obliged to strive with Tagwa to become a Muttagin or Mushin but don't die a Muslim [loose term] by becoming apostate.
He will die as Kafir if not a Muslim.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top